World Families Forums - Iberian R-L21*

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 12, 2014, 02:13:13 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Iberian R-L21*
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Iberian R-L21*  (Read 36478 times)
realdealt
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 29


« Reply #375 on: March 11, 2012, 08:11:24 PM »

One source says the name Escalante originated from the town of Escalante in the province of Santander, Spain. In another source, I see four persons with the surname Escalante coming from there to the Americas in 1514 and 1518.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 08:18:29 PM by realdealt » Logged
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #376 on: March 12, 2012, 07:41:34 PM »

.... He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.

Escalante, kit N10695 is Ysearch ZPJMX. There is another Escalante, kit 106345 who is Ysearch UA552 and I believe he is the uncle of Escalante, kit N10695. He would also be R-L21 then.
N10695 Escalante has a high 481 value so he is a DF23 suspect.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #377 on: March 12, 2012, 07:56:15 PM »

One source says the name Escalante originated from the town of Escalante in the province of Santander, Spain. In another source, I see four persons with the surname Escalante coming from there to the Americas in 1514 and 1518.



Thanks!
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #378 on: March 12, 2012, 08:03:37 PM »

.... He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.

Escalante, kit N10695 is Ysearch ZPJMX. There is another Escalante, kit 106345 who is Ysearch UA552 and I believe he is the uncle of Escalante, kit N10695. He would also be R-L21 then.
N10695 Escalante has a high 481 value so he is a DF23 suspect.


Yeah, I see that now. It's 24. I'll have to email him and let him know.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #379 on: May 31, 2012, 08:30:05 PM »

I spotted a new (new to me, anyway) Iberian R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula Project, kit 169582, who lists his ancestral surname as Gonsalus. The Ysearch ID is DR9UY.

I am currently trying to recruit this person for the R-L21 Plus Project.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #380 on: June 01, 2012, 07:48:06 PM »

We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?
Logged

Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« Reply #381 on: June 01, 2012, 08:24:22 PM »

We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.
Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #382 on: June 01, 2012, 08:27:48 PM »

We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 08:29:08 PM by rms2 » Logged

Richard Rocca
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 523


« Reply #383 on: June 01, 2012, 09:02:43 PM »

We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.

Just a correction on my part - I meant to say "Barcelona in Catalonia" as the city name.

As for the use of Roma as a last name in the Romani community, I don't know. I know that like Jews, they typically use names similar to those of local communities.
Logged

Paternal: R1b-U152+L2*
Maternal: H
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #384 on: June 01, 2012, 09:13:34 PM »

We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.

Just a correction on my part - I meant to say "Barcelona in Catalonia" as the city name.

As for the use of Roma as a last name in the Romani community, I don't know. I know that like Jews, they typically use names similar to those of local communities.

Okay, I got it. That surname is most common in Barcelona.

I doubt that it has anything to do with the gypsies in this context, but who knows?
Logged

razyn
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 405


« Reply #385 on: June 01, 2012, 11:16:10 PM »

How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

The most obvious answer would be, "by being a Gypsy," but naming oneself, as opposed to being named by somebody else.  In which case, there, they would be something like Gitano; in Russia Tsygankov, in the Isles Gypsy (or Traveler, Tinker, or something else -- but not Roma).

Anyway, I wouldn't think anybody would name a Spanish family for an Italian city.
Logged

R1b Z196*
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #386 on: June 02, 2012, 06:42:00 AM »

How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

The most obvious answer would be, "by being a Gypsy," but naming oneself, as opposed to being named by somebody else.  In which case, there, they would be something like Gitano; in Russia Tsygankov, in the Isles Gypsy (or Traveler, Tinker, or something else -- but not Roma).

Anyway, I wouldn't think anybody would name a Spanish family for an Italian city.

I wouldn't either, unless the family wasn't originally Spanish but came there from Italy.

From what I could find out, in Spain the surname Roma appears to be a patronymic derived from the personal name Roman, i.e., Roma means son of Roman and has nothing to do with gypsies.

However, Roma is also an Italian surname, as one can see from this map of its Italian distribution.
Logged

Arch Y.
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 292


« Reply #387 on: June 02, 2012, 05:56:17 PM »

We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.

Just a correction on my part - I meant to say "Barcelona in Catalonia" as the city name.

As for the use of Roma as a last name in the Romani community, I don't know. I know that like Jews, they typically use names similar to those of local communities.

Okay, I got it. That surname is most common in Barcelona.

I doubt that it has anything to do with the gypsies in this context, but who knows?

I thought the surname Garcia was the most common surname in Catalonia.

Arch
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #388 on: June 02, 2012, 06:56:06 PM »

We have a new Spanish R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Roma, kit 232541, Ysearch JRJZC. His ancestor came from Borredà, in Catalonia.

That surname sure looks Italian to me though. How can one have the surname Roma and not be Italian?

As far a cities go, the surname Roma appears most frequently in Catalonia. As far as countries go, Italy takes first place. However, the last name "Romano" or "from Rome"  is much more common. For completeness, the gypsies in Europe call themselves the 'Roma'.

I know they do, but do they use Roma as a surname?

But if Roma appears as the name of a city or cities in Catalonia, that is something of which I was unaware. It would make sense, then, for a Catalan to have that surname.

Just a correction on my part - I meant to say "Barcelona in Catalonia" as the city name.

As for the use of Roma as a last name in the Romani community, I don't know. I know that like Jews, they typically use names similar to those of local communities.

Okay, I got it. That surname is most common in Barcelona.

I doubt that it has anything to do with the gypsies in this context, but who knows?

I thought the surname Garcia was the most common surname in Catalonia.

Arch

What I wrote was "[t]hat surname [Roma] is most common in Catalonia", not that Roma is the most common surname in Catalonia.

My surname is most common in Cornwall, but I doubt that it is the most common surname there.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 06:58:20 PM by rms2 » Logged

IALEM
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 267


« Reply #389 on: June 04, 2012, 12:10:46 PM »



I thought the surname Garcia was the most common surname in Catalonia.

Arch
That speaks volumes of how inaccurate is the use of Spanish surnames looking for origin. Garcia is a surname derived from a name that it is itself in origin a Basque name
Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #390 on: June 21, 2012, 08:12:46 AM »

Here is a pet peeve not related to any of the posts above (as far as I know):
men of British Isles descent who cannot trace their most distant y-dna ancestor to the Iberian Peninsula who nevertheless join the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project.

Aarrgghh!

I occasionally search the Iberian Peninsula Project for signs of new Spanish or Portuguese R-L21s to recruit for the R-L21 Plus Project. It is a pain to have one's eyes diverted by a green "R1b1a2a1a1b4" only to find it attached to some guy with an English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh surname and a declared origin outside the Iberian Peninsula.

I think I know why these guys are joining the Iberian Peninsula Project. They have been exposed to the old Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge stuff and have accepted it. They think of themselves as Ur-Spaniards or Ur-Basques.

Caramba!

Logged

OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #391 on: June 25, 2012, 06:46:19 AM »

Here is a pet peeve not related to any of the posts above (as far as I know):
men of British Isles descent who cannot trace their most distant y-dna ancestor to the Iberian Peninsula who nevertheless join the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project.

Aarrgghh!

I occasionally search the Iberian Peninsula Project for signs of new Spanish or Portuguese R-L21s to recruit for the R-L21 Plus Project. It is a pain to have one's eyes diverted by a green "R1b1a2a1a1b4" only to find it attached to some guy with an English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh surname and a declared origin outside the Iberian Peninsula.

I think I know why these guys are joining the Iberian Peninsula Project. They have been exposed to the old Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge stuff and have accepted it. They think of themselves as Ur-Spaniards or Ur-Basques.

Caramba!



I would suspect some people are looking for connections to the Milesian Story, rather than the ice-age thing.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/library/book5/invasion.html#Milesians
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 06:47:07 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Mark Jost
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 707


« Reply #392 on: June 25, 2012, 09:08:40 AM »

Here is a Google EBook (Downloadable PDF) that I am reading seems to cover all the bases.

An illustrated history of Ireland: from the earliest period (Google eBook)

http://books.google.com/books/about/An_illustrated_history_of_Ireland.html?id=ZSEvAAAAMAAJ

Logged

148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #393 on: June 25, 2012, 04:20:50 PM »

I'll have a look at it..on the other hand we still have "Ireland's History in Maps" http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire000.htm
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


Heber
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 448


« Reply #394 on: June 25, 2012, 09:01:48 PM »

I have collected all those maps in one board which makes reviewing them simpler. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. See the Irish History in Maps board.
Any suggestions for other interesting sites are welcome.

http://pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/
Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #395 on: June 26, 2012, 11:08:14 AM »

I visit the Megalithic Portal for Megalithic photos from all of Europe.
There are some nice listings under Spain.
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/topics.php?countries=1

I don't know how long L21 has been in Iberia.

I guess most of us will be happier once some L21+ aDNA is found some places in Europe.
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #396 on: June 26, 2012, 06:09:51 PM »

Well the one thing that appears clear is that L21 is high in Iberia in the border area with France in the Pyrenees.   This to me is not the distribution you would expect if L21 was connected to beaker Atlantic links or Atlantic Bronze Age ones 1000 years later when it is western Iberia that seems stronger in these links.
 
This ties in with the idea too that Iberia may have been the origin of beaker pottery (although there are still people who disagree) but it was much of the receiver than donor in the developed beaker phase. 

It also seems possible to me that L21 drifted into Iberia from France with the Pyrennees possibly much later becoming a reguge area for some L21 lineages during the effects of huge events like the conquest of Gaul etc. 

I think L21 is a very peripheral issue in the arrival of R1b in Iberia.  The real question is DF27 and when it arrived and came to be so very dominant in Iberia.  I dont think the geography of DF27 outside Iberia is clear in my head so its hard to speculate other that it must have come from wherever P312 arose and I would favour somewhere like SE France or  maybe further east for that.
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #397 on: August 02, 2012, 12:00:26 PM »

I just recruited a new Portuguese member for the R-L21 Plus Project: Torres, kit 235991. He has ordered L21, but he belongs to that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19, which has consistently been L21+ DF13+. We have six others in that cluster, three Portuguese and three Spaniards, in the project already.

Torres' mdka was born in the Azores.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #398 on: August 02, 2012, 12:12:54 PM »

I just recruited a new Portuguese member for the R-L21 Plus Project: Torres, kit 235991. He has ordered L21, but he belongs to that Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCA=19-19, which has consistently been L21+ DF13+. We have six others in that cluster, three Portuguese and three Spaniards, in the project already.

Torres' mdka was born in the Azores.

BTW, this seems to be a west Iberian cluster. Portugal, of course, is at the west end of the peninsula, and the two Spaniards who belong to it who know where in Spain their most distant ancestors came from are western, as well: one from Galicia, the other from Cumbres Mayores in Andalucia.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #399 on: August 02, 2012, 01:02:44 PM »

Another representative of that cluster has ordered DF41 and DF49, which I think are the only branches of L21 it hasn't been tested for.
Logged

Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 19 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.086 seconds with 19 queries.