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IALEM
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« Reply #350 on: May 24, 2011, 05:38:23 PM »

Valle de Mena is indeed in the very border with Vizcaya. Did you find any notice when the surname is first attested there?
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MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

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« Reply #351 on: May 24, 2011, 08:17:13 PM »

Valle de Mena is indeed in the very border with Vizcaya. Did you find any notice when the surname is first attested there?

Unfortunately that is all the information provided. My source is the book "Diccionario etimológico comparado de los apellidos españoles, hispanoamericanos y filipinos" by Gutierre Tibón.

Another source I have shows a Fernando de Barrasa, "montañés", from the province of Santander, went to the Indies in 1516.
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rms2
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« Reply #352 on: May 27, 2011, 08:14:42 PM »

Today realdealt spotted another new R-L21 with a Spanish surname. He's in the Iberian Ashkenaz project: Andrada, kit 182680. I can't find him in Ysearch, but I emailed the admin of that project to try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

The entry just lists "Spain" as the ancestral place of origin, with no further details.
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« Reply #353 on: May 29, 2011, 07:52:57 AM »

Today realdealt spotted another new R-L21 with a Spanish surname. He's in the Iberian Ashkenaz project: Andrada, kit 182680. I can't find him in Ysearch, but I emailed the admin of that project to try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

The entry just lists "Spain" as the ancestral place of origin, with no further details.

Andrada has joined the project. He traces his most distant y-dna ancestor to Mexico, so he's in the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category.
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« Reply #354 on: June 12, 2011, 07:41:47 PM »

I just found a new R-L21 in the Galicia Project: Rodriguez, kit 89912, Ysearch 67U3T.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

His y ancestor came from Puebla de Trives in Galicia.

I'm trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.
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« Reply #355 on: June 15, 2011, 07:59:12 PM »

I just found a new R-L21 in the Galicia Project: Rodriguez, kit 89912, Ysearch 67U3T.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/GaliciaDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

His y ancestor came from Puebla de Trives in Galicia.

I'm trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Rodriguez joined the R-L21 Plus Project.
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« Reply #356 on: June 23, 2011, 07:12:52 PM »

Found a new Portuguese R-L21 this evening: Correia Neves, kit 172173, Ysearch 8E2YH.

I found him in the R1b1a2 Iberian Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults

It seems to me R-L21 is fairly common in the Iberian Peninsula.
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« Reply #357 on: June 24, 2011, 08:40:20 AM »

Do you think R-L21 could have actually originated there?  From what I can see, the Pyrenees / Basque clusters of R-P312 are fairly young so the whole Basque/Cantabrian thing may bit of a red herring.

However, that doesn't mean R-P312 doesn't come from Iberia.  There are some unusual haplotypes.  Perhaps an in-depth study of R-P312 in Portugal would be important.

On the other hand, I don't get high variance in Iberia, generally.

Found a new Portuguese R-L21 this evening: Correia Neves, kit 172173, Ysearch 8E2YH.

I found him in the R1b1a2 Iberian Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults

It seems to me R-L21 is fairly common in the Iberian Peninsula.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #358 on: June 24, 2011, 11:30:44 AM »

Do you think R-L21 could have actually originated there?  From what I can see, the Pyrenees / Basque clusters of R-P312 are fairly young so the whole Basque/Cantabrian thing may bit of a red herring.

However, that doesn't mean R-P312 doesn't come from Iberia.  There are some unusual haplotypes.  Perhaps an in-depth study of R-P312 in Portugal would be important.

On the other hand, I don't get high variance in Iberia, generally.

Found a new Portuguese R-L21 this evening: Correia Neves, kit 172173, Ysearch 8E2YH.

I found him in the R1b1a2 Iberian Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b2Iberico/default.aspx?section=yresults

It seems to me R-L21 is fairly common in the Iberian Peninsula.

Going only by the project and Myres et al acknowledging the limitations of this, I still feel there is a pattern.  If you ignore Madrid the Iberian L21 seems to fall into vague groupings. There is a group in the area near the French border, especially the Basque Country.  There is a second group (which IMO is somewhat unexpected) in the SW of Spain inland from Cadiz.  There is a weak suggestion of a 3rd group along the Atlantic seaboard of Iberia but this is IMO unexpectedly weak.  Its the peak in the NE of Spain in and adjacent to the Basque Country and the Spanish border that stands out for me.  There seems to be a lack of a compelling case for the Atlantic Bronze Age model as it seems that there is not exactly a ton of L21 in Portugal and NW Spain. I have a totally open mind on this but the looking for an Iberian origin for L21 to date is very counterintuitive and has a lot more to do with overcrediting the historical content of Irish mythology than it has to reading of the DNA evidence.  

As far as I can see both the frequency peak outside the British Isles and the highest variance are in the northern half of France.  That answers the question of L21 origins as far as I am concerned although caveated by the lack of a systematic sample.  If you look at variance and you look at the upstream phylogeny then surely the current working hypothesis supported by the evidence is that L21 occurred among S116* people who had entered northern France from the east and that they crossed to England not too much later.  
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 11:38:00 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #359 on: June 24, 2011, 07:52:10 PM »

Do you think R-L21 could have actually originated there?  From what I can see, the Pyrenees / Basque clusters of R-P312 are fairly young so the whole Basque/Cantabrian thing may bit of a red herring.

However, that doesn't mean R-P312 doesn't come from Iberia.  There are some unusual haplotypes.  Perhaps an in-depth study of R-P312 in Portugal would be important.

On the other hand, I don't get high variance in Iberia, generally.

I don't know, but that has crossed my mind, too.

Of course, all the things Alan brings up are true, so for now I guess it looks like L21 got to Iberia from France.

It sure would be nice if some scientists would study at least one of these countries in a comprehensive manner.

Correia Neves has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, by the way.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2011, 07:53:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #360 on: October 24, 2011, 11:32:02 AM »

Two new Spanish R-L21s to report: kits 149534 and 149541 (no Ysearch IDs yet). They descend from the same ancestor, surname Kimhi, from Sevilla (Seville) in Andalusia.

They are WAMHers, not part of any cluster, and were not recruited by me. (I'm glad they showed up, though.)
Regarding Kimhi (and variations), I have received subsequent emails, and two more descendants of that same ancestor have joined the project. They apparently all come from a famous rabbinical family and descend from one of the most famous rabbis of all time, David Kimhi (also known as RaDak):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radak

This is cool, in my opinion.
Do you want to know the origin of these Spanish clades like that of the Qimhis and others? These are the clade-mother and the clades-daughters:

1)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,12,13,13,29
2)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,13,29
3)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,14,29
4)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,11,11,13,14,29

The fact that DYS439, a pretty fast mutating marker, has remained unchanged makes us hypothesize that everything has happened in restricted times.
If those clades presuppose an unique family line or are picked up here and there it is difficult to say and only a large scale research could answer, but its diffusion overall in the R-L21 world makes us think to independent stocks which, of course, have a far unique origin.

Was doing more research on this DYS439=11 and Z253+ business and took another look at the four (claimed) Rabbi Yosef Kimhi descendents that I "thought" I knew about. I don't know how I missed it before, but only TWO of these supposed descendents are probable. The other two are confirmed L21- according to their only SNP test, and could not possibly be related to the L21+ tested pair. These L21- are maybe R-P312*, but I don't really know since the only SNP that was tested was L21.

Anyway, the thought was that there may be something more here about DYS439=11, Iberia, Sephardim, the Baltic Cluster (and maybe Z253+ as a continental SNP). It is consistent with Maliclavelli's statements above, but here one would need to presume that the "clade mother" is pre-L21, and the Kimchi and Baltic "clade daughters" are post-L21.

The supposed (but not really) Kimhi family:

149534    Camhi     Greece      L21+
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29                                                                                
 
149541    Kimchi     Bulgaria    L21+
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29                                                                               
 
149540    Kamhi      Turkey      L21-
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                                       
153485    Chimichi    Italy        L21-    
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
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« Reply #361 on: October 24, 2011, 11:38:57 AM »

Was doing more research on this DYS439=11 and Z253+ business and took another look at the four (claimed) Rabbi Yosef Kimhi descendents that I "thought" I knew about. I don't know how I missed it before, but only TWO of these supposed descendents are probable. The other two are confirmed L21- according to their only SNP test, and could not possibly be related to the L21+ tested pair. These L21- are maybe R-P312*, but I don't really know since the only SNP that was tested was L21.

Of course, maybe the two REAL descendents of Rabbi Yosef Kimhi are the L21- pair, and the ones that are not true descendents are the L21+ pair. I suppose we can see what happens with further Z253+ testing of more Iberians.
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

mtDNA: J1c7a

seferhabahir
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« Reply #362 on: October 24, 2011, 11:59:17 AM »

Of course, maybe the two REAL descendents of Rabbi Yosef Kimhi are the L21- pair, and the ones that are not true descendents are the L21+ pair. I suppose we can see what happens with further Z253+ testing of more Iberians.

You are welcome to read more about the Kimhi family investigations (coordinated by a former FTDNA project administrator) at the following link. At the time this article was published, it was assumed that all four of these Kimhi descendents were all related. And maybe this is the case, but certainly not on a direct paternal line to Rabbi Yosef Kimhi. Points to the dangers of only testing 12 markers.

www.jewishdnaproject.com/Genology.pdf
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Y-DNA: R-L21 (Z251+ L583+)

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« Reply #363 on: October 24, 2011, 03:10:10 PM »

Yeah, that info came out awhile back, but I never posted a follow-up to it, since it didn't pan out.
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« Reply #364 on: December 20, 2011, 08:37:48 PM »

There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.

I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
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« Reply #365 on: December 20, 2011, 08:41:10 PM »

There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.

I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.

This one has a bunch of fairly close McCracken matches at 67 and 37 markers.
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« Reply #366 on: December 20, 2011, 10:19:03 PM »

There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.
I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
...
This one has a bunch of fairly close McCracken matches at 67 and 37 markers.
Good catch, Rich.

I put him in the spreadsheet. Here is who he is closest to.

fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_ JDTJC___ Spain
f14749____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ 9TCMN___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f35786____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ XQMXR___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28460____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ A8HY7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f103494___ Robinson_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ DRP7A___ zzzUnkOrigin


This looks like a real cluster - 253-1518.  One of them is Z253* (cousins to L226) so I think they'll all be Z253.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 10:42:42 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #367 on: December 21, 2011, 09:56:49 AM »

There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.
I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
...
This one has a bunch of fairly close McCracken matches at 67 and 37 markers.
Good catch, Rich.

I put him in the spreadsheet. Here is who he is closest to.

fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_ JDTJC___ Spain
f14749____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ 9TCMN___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f35786____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ XQMXR___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28460____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ A8HY7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f103494___ Robinson_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ DRP7A___ zzzUnkOrigin


This looks like a real cluster - 253-1518.  One of them is Z253* (cousins to L226) so I think they'll all be Z253.  

Interesting.  McCracken is a Scottish name.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 09:59:06 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #368 on: December 21, 2011, 07:34:33 PM »

There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.
I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
...
This one has a bunch of fairly close McCracken matches at 67 and 37 markers.
Good catch, Rich.

I put him in the spreadsheet. Here is who he is closest to.

fN43805___ Lenares__________________ R-L21________________________ zzL21unassigned_ JDTJC___ Spain
f14749____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ 9TCMN___ Ireland, Ulster, Co. Derry, Newtown Limavady
f35786____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ XQMXR___ zzzUnkOrigin
f28460____ McCracken________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ A8HY7___ zzzUnkOrigin
f103494___ Robinson_________________ R-L21________________________ 253-1518________ DRP7A___ zzzUnkOrigin


This looks like a real cluster - 253-1518.  One of them is Z253* (cousins to L226) so I think they'll all be Z253.


Which of them is Z253+? That is interesting because Lenares is of Spanish ancestry, but the rest are not.
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« Reply #369 on: December 21, 2011, 08:48:12 PM »

Which of them is Z253+? That is interesting because Lenares is of Spanish ancestry, but the rest are not.
Let's go over to the Z253 thread. Some of the clusters may not be firm and may need to be broken up. Generally, I list the haplogroup. Something like R-L21 means all of the downstream SNPs have not been tested where as R-L21/Z153 indicates there is a positive confirmation on Z153.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 08:55:07 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #370 on: December 22, 2011, 06:44:08 AM »

There's a new Spanish R-L21 (new to me, anyway): Lenares, kit N43805, Ysearch JDTJC.

I found him in the Iberian Peninsula Project.
The surname Lenares doesn´t exist in Spanish, the real surname was probably Linares . It is a widely spread surname in Spain, mainly in Andalusia, where there is a town called Linares. The first mention of the surname, however, shows up in Santander c.1200 AD, but it is very likely that many Linares got their surname from the city, or even from a local geographic feature (Linares meaning Flax crops)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 06:46:11 AM by IALEM » Logged

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MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

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« Reply #371 on: March 11, 2012, 12:12:14 PM »

I was glancing through the "Need L21 or Deep Clade Testing" category at the R-L21 Plus Project and discovered that Escalante, kit N10695, just got the first of his Deep Clade results, and is L21+, L226-. Since his mdka came from Mexico, I moved him to the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category.

He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 12:16:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #372 on: March 11, 2012, 03:06:56 PM »

I was glancing through the "Need L21 or Deep Clade Testing" category at the R-L21 Plus Project and discovered that Escalante, kit N10695, just got the first of his Deep Clade results, and is L21+, L226-. Since his mdka came from Mexico, I moved him to the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category.

He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.

Escalante, kit N10695 is Ysearch ZPJMX. There is another Escalante, kit 106345 who is Ysearch UA552 and I believe he is the uncle of Escalante, kit N10695. He would also be R-L21 then.


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« Reply #373 on: March 11, 2012, 03:50:55 PM »

It could seem to whom who don’t believe to my theory (I remember: 1) mutations around the modal 2) convergence to the modal as time passes 3) sometime mutations go for the tangent) that the Spaniard Escalante R-L21 is in the “modal” for many values of his.
But look at:
DYS511=8
DYS557=19
DYS481=24
DYS487=15
DYS572=10

Then : he is probably very ancient, at the origin of R-L21, who was born in Iberia and diffused along the Atlantic coast to the Isles. His values in the modal have had probably many “mutations around the modal”.
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« Reply #374 on: March 11, 2012, 04:22:51 PM »

I was glancing through the "Need L21 or Deep Clade Testing" category at the R-L21 Plus Project and discovered that Escalante, kit N10695, just got the first of his Deep Clade results, and is L21+, L226-. Since his mdka came from Mexico, I moved him to the "New World: Spanish or Portuguese Surname" category.

He does not belong to either of the couple of known Spanish clusters and has no 67-marker matches. Escalante has no Ysearch entry as of yet, as far as I can tell without looking too hard.

Escalante, kit N10695 is Ysearch ZPJMX. There is another Escalante, kit 106345 who is Ysearch UA552 and I believe he is the uncle of Escalante, kit N10695. He would also be R-L21 then.


Thanks, Robert.

When I saw he had gotten an L21+ result, I just looked real quickly to see if he had a Ysearch entry connected to his myFTDNA pages. At the time, he didn't. When I wrote him to advise him of his new results, I asked him to create a Ysearch entry, but probably he already had that one. I didn't really go looking for it.

I also asked him to join the Iberian Peninsula DNA project. Hopefully, he'll do that.

Any clue where that surname comes from in Spain?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2012, 04:23:21 PM by rms2 » Logged

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