World Families Forums - Iberian R-L21*

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 27, 2014, 08:19:04 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Iberian R-L21*
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 ... 19 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Iberian R-L21*  (Read 37505 times)
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #300 on: August 03, 2010, 02:36:22 PM »

I probably should also mention that second Iberian cluster with 19=15, 459=9-9, and YCAII=19-19.

So far there are four of L21+ our members in it and a fifth awaiting L21 test results. One of the first four cannot get his paper trail out of Mexico. Of the remaining three, two have Portuguese ancestry from the Azores, and one has ancestry from SW Spain, not too far from the Portuguese border. The fifth member of the cluster is of Portuguese ancestry, probably also from the Azores, but I'm not sure of that yet.

hmm.. very tempting to see that as a western Iberian cluster.
Logged
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #301 on: August 03, 2010, 02:43:54 PM »

Hopefully the academic obsession with the Basques when it comes to DNA will result in a study (preferably covering both those in both France and Spain) of the Basques using the full group of SNPs.  It certainly sounds a fairly modest goal.  

My feeling is there is an L21 minority among the Basques but it is probably heavily outnumbered.    How many of these L21 Basques belong to the cluster you identified?  In fact how many of all L21 Iberians are in and not in the cluster?  Is their any difference in distribution between those in an not in the cluster?

We have 26 project members with Spanish or Portuguese surnames, and I know of three other men, two Spaniards and one Portuguese, who are L21+ but haven't joined the project, for a grand total of 29. Of those, six are in "Sampedro's Cluster", my name for the cluster Archuleta is in, because it was in searching through Sampedro's matches that I discovered it. There are several more members of that easily recognized cluster out there, but I haven't been able to recruit them.

Archuleta is the only Basque in Sampedro's Cluster. Arrizabalaga only has 12 markers and cannot currently be placed in any cluster. Olazabal is short on matches of any kind. He does not belong to Sampedro's Cluster.

Of the other members of Sampedro's Cluster who can trace their ancestry to Spain, one cannot identify any place more specific than "Spain"; another has an ancestor who was born in Bilbao, but who had a non-Basque surname; and the last of them has an ancestor who came from Cantabria. Two members of the cluster cannot get their y lines out of Mexico. So, of those for whom we can place pins in specific towns on the map of Spain, all three are from the Northeast, in or near the Basque country.

Hmm..very tempting to see that as a north/east Iberian cluster. 

It is interesting that the guys in the two clusters who can be plotted seem to fall into two widely separated areas.  That strange distribution is also true when all Iberian L21 that can be plotted is looked at.  Very interesting and seems more than a coincidence.  Question is does this relate to historic reality or migration patterns to the Americas in modern times.   
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #302 on: August 03, 2010, 04:10:00 PM »

Gomez, kit N16025, just got his L21+ result. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Galicia. Gomez is not in one of the two clusters mentioned elsewhere in this thread. He has a 36/37 match with another Spaniard.

I am in Wilmington, North Carolina, this week, and this hotel computer is really slow, so I probably won't be posting much.

That Spanish 36/37 match is Saenz, Ysearch EWDMF.

I don't yet know where in Galicia Gomez' ancestor came from. All I know for now is Galicia.
Logged

argiedude
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 146


« Reply #303 on: August 04, 2010, 05:58:10 PM »

Huge thanks to everyone for all this research, especially of course Steve. I'm also seeing an east-west difference. I like that in particular because over these last couple of years I have noted repeatedly that the y-dna of Iberia has more of an east-west cline, rather than north-south. This stuff on Iberian L21 is also very timely for a new thread I'm starting about Latin Americans' y-dna and where in Spain their ancestors came from.
Logged

y-dna: R1b L21
mtdna: U5
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #304 on: August 04, 2010, 09:33:30 PM »

This is the conclusion also of this paper, unfortunately not for free, I cited in another thread:

O García, R Fregel, J M Larruga, V Álvarez, I Yurrebaso, V M Cabrera and A M González

Using mitochondrial DNA to test the hypothesis of a European post-glacial human recolonization from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge
"It has been proposed that the distribution patterns and coalescence ages found in Europeans for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups V, H1 and H3 are the result of a post-glacial expansion from a Franco-Cantabrian refuge that recolonized central and northern areas. In contrast, in this refined mtDNA study of the Cantabrian Cornice that contributes 413 partial and 9 complete new mtDNA sequences, including a large Basque sample and a sample of Asturians, no experimental evidence was found to support the human refuge-expansion theory. In fact, all measures of gene diversity point to the Cantabrian Cornice in general and the Basques in particular, as less polymorphic for V, H1 and H3 than other southern regions in Iberia or in Central Europe. Genetic distances show the Cantabrian Cornice is a very heterogeneous region with significant local differences. The analysis of several minor subhaplogroups, based on complete sequences, also suggests different focal expansions over a local and peninsular range that did not affect continental Europe. Furthermore, all detected clinal trends show stronger longitudinal than latitudinal profiles. In Northern Iberia, it seems that the highest diversity values for some haplogroups with Mesolithic coalescence ages are centred on the Mediterranean side, including Catalonia and South-eastern France".

As regards mtDNA HV4a (and perhaps not only), as I think having demonstrated in anorther thread, probably the origin isn't in East Spain, South France (the Latin "Provincia", the part of France most romanized and linked to Italy ab antiquo: see the "Ligures") rather more to East: in Italy.


Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #305 on: August 06, 2010, 10:50:46 AM »

Huge thanks to everyone for all this research, especially of course Steve. I'm also seeing an east-west difference. I like that in particular because over these last couple of years I have noted repeatedly that the y-dna of Iberia has more of an east-west cline, rather than north-south. This stuff on Iberian L21 is also very timely for a new thread I'm starting about Latin Americans' y-dna and where in Spain their ancestors came from.

Thanks, argiedude. I am excited that L21 seems to be popping up fairly frequently - well, certainly more than we expected - in Iberia. I don't think we have even scratched the surface yet though.

Of course, I don't expect R-L21 to be the biggest clade in Iberia. That honor goes to R-SRY2627, I think. But I think we have already surpassed U152 and its subclades and U106 and its subclades.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #306 on: August 13, 2010, 08:25:46 PM »

Mariño-Ramirez, Ysearch NR3T9, got his L21+ result this evening.

He doesn't belong to either of the Iberian clusters thus far identified, but he is a 33/37 neighbor to our Portuguese Madeiran, Dos Reis.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #307 on: August 18, 2010, 09:50:12 PM »

Ventura, kit 157713 , got his L21+ result this evening.

He is Portuguese, but I don't know the exact birthplace of his ancestor yet.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 12:57:33 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #308 on: August 30, 2010, 08:06:56 PM »

Robles, Ysearch G9CRT, just got his L21+ result. He is not in one of the Iberian haplotype clusters but kind of skirts the one with 385=12-14 and 459=10-10 (but he has 12-15 and 9-10, respectively).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 08:10:57 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #309 on: August 31, 2010, 05:53:20 PM »

There's a new Spanish surname R-L21 this evening; Chavez, Ysearch 44S95.

His only close match at 37 markers is also Spanish.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 05:53:49 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #310 on: September 12, 2010, 06:57:35 AM »

Two new Spanish R-L21s to report: kits 149534 and 149541 (no Ysearch IDs yet). They descend from the same ancestor, surname Kimhi, from Sevilla (Seville) in Andalusia.

They are WAMHers, not part of any cluster, and were not recruited by me. (I'm glad they showed up, though.)
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #311 on: September 12, 2010, 07:47:16 AM »

Which surname is Kimhi? It doesn't seem Spanish at all.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #312 on: September 12, 2010, 07:52:13 AM »

KIMHI, or Quay', the family name of three Jewish grammarians and biblical scholars who worked at Narbonne in the r 2th century and the beginning of the 13th, and exercised great influence on the study of the Hebrew language. The name, as is shown by manuscript testimony, was also pronounced Kamhi and further mention is made of the French surname Petit.

Joseph I K IMIiI was a native of southern Spain, and settled in Provence, where he was one of the first to set forth in the Hebrew language the results of Hebraic philology as expounded by the Spanish Jews in their Arabic treatises. He was acquainted moreover with Latin grammar, under the influence of which he resorted to the innovation of dividing the Hebrew vowels into five long vowels and five short, previous grammarians having simply spoken of seven vowels without distinction of quantity. His grammatical textbook, Sefer Ha-Zikkaron, "Book of Remembrance" (ed. W. Bacher, Berlin, 1888), was marked by methodical comprehensiveness, and introduced into the theory of the verbs a new classification of the stems which has been retained by later scholars. In the far more ample Sefer HaGaluy, "Book of Demonstration" (ed. Matthews, Berlin, 1887), Joseph Kimhi attacks the philological work of the greatest French Talmud scholar of that day, R. Jacob Tam, who espoused the antiquated system of Menahem b.Saruq, and this he supplements by an independent critique of Menahem. This work is a mine of varied exegetical and philological details. He also wrote commentaries - the majority of which are lost - on a great number of the scriptural books. Those on Proverbs and Job have been published. He composed an apologetic work under the title Sefer Ha-Berith ("Book of the Bond"), a fragment of which is extant, and translated into Hebrew the ethico-philosophical work of Balhya ibn Paquda ("Duties of the Heart"). In his commentaries he also made contributions to the comparative philology of Hebrew and Arabic.

Moses Kimhi was the author of a Hebrew grammar, known - after the first three words - as Mahalak Shebile Ha-daat, or briefly as Mahalak. It is an elementary introduction to the study of Hebrew, the first of its kind, in which only the most indispensable definitions and rules have a place, the remainder being almost wholly occupied by paradigms. Moses Kimhi was the first who made the verb paqadh a model for conjugation, and the first also who introduced the now usual sequence in the enumeration of stem-forms. His handbook was of great historical importance as in the first half of the 6th century it became the favourite manual for the study of Hebrew among non-Judaic scholars (1st ed., Pesaro, 1508). Elias Levita wrote Hebrew explanations, and Sebastian Munster translated it into Latin. Moses Kimhi also composed commentaries to the biblical books; those on Proverbs, Ezra and Nehemiah are in the great rabbinical bibles falsely ascribed to Abraham ibn Ezra.

David Kimhi (c. r r60-1235), also known as Redaq (=R. David Kimhi), eclipsed the fame both of his father and his brother. From the writings of the former he quotes a great number of explanations, some of which are known only from this source. His magnum opus is the Sefer Miklol, "Book of Completeness." This falls into two divisions: the grammar, to which the title of the whole, Miklol, is usually applied (first printed in Constantinople, 1532-1534, then, with the notes of Elias Levita, at Venice, 1545), and the lexicon, Sefer Hashorashim, "Book of Roots," which was first printed in Italy before 1480, then at Naples in 1490, and at Venice in 1546 with the annotations of Elias. The model and the principal source for this work of David Kimhi's was the book of R. Jonah (Abulwalid), which was cast in a similar bipartite form; and it was chiefly due to I imhi's grammar and lexicon that, while the contents of Abulwalid's works were common knowledge, they themselves remained in oblivion for centuries. In spite of this dependence on his predecessors his work shows originality, especially in the arrangement of his material. In the grammar he combined the paradigmatic method of his brother Moses with the procedure of the older scholars who devoted a close attention to details. In his dictionary, again, he recast the lexicological materials independently, and enriched lexicography itself, especially by his numerous etymological explanations. Under the title Et Sofer, " Pen of the Writer" (Lyk, 1864), David Kimhi composed a sort of grammatical compendium as a guide to the correct punctuation of the biblical manuscripts; it consists, for the most part, of extracts from the Miklol. After the completion of his great work he began to write commentaries on portions of the Scriptures. The first was on Chronicles, then followed one on the Psalms, and finally his exegetical masterpiece - the commentary on the prophets. His annotations on the Psalms are especially interesting for the polemical excursuses directed against the Christian interpretation. He was also responsible for a commentary on Genesis (ed. A. Giinsburg, Pressburg, 1842), in which he followed Moses Maimonides in explaining biblical narratives as visions. He was an enthusiastic adherent of Maimonides, and, though far advanced in years, took an active part in the battle which raged in southern France and Spain round his philosophicoreligious writings. The popularity of his biblical exegesis is demonstrated by the fact that the first printed texts of the Hebrew Bible were accompanied by his commentary: the Psalms 1477, perhaps at Bologna; the early Prophets, 1485, Soncino; the later Prophets, ibid. 1486.

His commentaries have been frequently reprinted, many of them in Latin translations. A new edition of that on the Psalms was begun by Schiller-Szinessy (First Book of Psalms, Cambridge, 1883). Abr. Geiger wrote of the three Kimhis in the Hebrew periodical Ozar Nehmad (vol. ii., 1857 =A. Geiger, Gesammelte Schriften, v. 1-47). See further the Jewish Encyclopedia. (WV. BA.)


Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

realdealt
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 29


« Reply #313 on: September 12, 2010, 09:02:29 AM »

From my reference books the surname KIMHI is a variant.

Qamhi, arabic "wheat", Variations Camhy, Camhi, Camy, Quimhi, Kimhi (sephardic from Moroccans, France, Italy, Turkey, England).
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #314 on: September 12, 2010, 10:42:13 AM »

But the question is always the same: where they took from their haplogroup? R-L21 seems a Western European one if neither Italy has it and in Spain it is probably due to the invasions after the Roman Empire fell.
Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #315 on: September 12, 2010, 10:49:07 AM »

Ventura, kit 157713 , got his L21+ result this evening.

He is Portuguese, but I don't know the exact birthplace of his ancestor yet.

I have looked up the surname Ventura and it seems to be Italian. Is this surname  Portuguese also?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 10:49:45 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


realdealt
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 29


« Reply #316 on: September 12, 2010, 10:58:25 AM »

From my data of Iberian L21 with known specific locations in Spain I produced this map.

http://tinyurl.com/2aunryh

If L21 in Iberia is "spill-over" from France then is this distribution reflective only of recent population movements? The hotspots seem to be around the Basque Country and Andalucía.
Logged
Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #317 on: September 12, 2010, 11:37:28 AM »

Ventura, kit 157713 , got his L21+ result this evening.

He is Portuguese, but I don't know the exact birthplace of his ancestor yet.

I have looked up the surname Ventura and it seems to be Italian. Is this surname  Portuguese also?

Ventura is an Italian surname but used also by Jews. One Ventura tested R1b1b2* from Turkey I demonstrated he was of Italian extraction by a letter from a relative of his. Any case should be investigated by itself. I am searching now about a Pole named Pradella, which is an Italian surname, but probably taken also by Jews from Italy. But the football player Vilimowski, born Pradella, didn't seem to be a Jew if played in Germany during the Nazi regime. For this I have always supported to investigate the paper trail of a person tested: we risk to attribute to Poles what is Italian or Jewish etc.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 01:50:49 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #318 on: September 12, 2010, 03:57:11 PM »

Regarding Kimhi (and variations), I have received subsequent emails, and two more descendants of that same ancestor have joined the project.

They apparently all come from a famous rabbinical family and descend from one of the most famous rabbis of all time, David Kimhi (also known as RaDak):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radak

This is cool, in my opinion.
Logged

Maliclavelli
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2148


« Reply #319 on: September 13, 2010, 10:28:27 AM »

Dear Rich, you who are a connoisseur of  R-L21+, do you want to know the origin of these Spanish clades like that of the Qimhis and others? These are the clade-mother and the clades-daughters:

1)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,12,13,13,29
2)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,13,29
3)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,12,11,13,14,29
4)   13,24,14,11,11-14,12,11,11,13,14,29

The fact that DYS439, a pretty fast mutating marker, has remained unchanged makes us hypothesize that everything has happened in restricted times.
If those clades presuppose an unique family line or are picked up here and there it is difficult to say and only a large scale research could answer, but its diffusion overall in the R-L21 world makes us think to independent stocks which, of course, have a far unique origin.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 12:26:13 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #320 on: October 11, 2010, 06:14:46 PM »

There's a new R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project: Saldaña , kit 58625, Ysearch 6FDJY.

I have sent him a message asking him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
Logged

IALEM
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 267


« Reply #321 on: October 14, 2010, 10:15:44 AM »

There's a new R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project: Saldaña , kit 58625, Ysearch 6FDJY.

I have sent him a message asking him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
The origin of the surname is in the town of the same name in Spain. Today it is a very small town but in the early middle ages it was the capital of the count of Saldaña, and many vassals took the surname from it.
Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

OConnor
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 676


« Reply #322 on: October 15, 2010, 03:31:39 PM »

If he's L21+ then he must be a Count. ;)
Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18


alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #323 on: October 16, 2010, 03:47:57 AM »

There's a new R-L21 in the Iberian Peninsula DNA Project: Saldaña , kit 58625, Ysearch 6FDJY.

I have sent him a message asking him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
The origin of the surname is in the town of the same name in Spain. Today it is a very small town but in the early middle ages it was the capital of the count of Saldaña, and many vassals took the surname from it.

Although its in Castille-Leon, its in the extreme north close to the Cantabria area in the north-east  of Spain where we know there is L21 both from the project maps and Myres.   It does seem to me still that in Iberia L21 rises in the NE and towards the west but is lacking elsewhere and although the numbers are lower than expected, this is borne out by Myres et al.  The latter picked up this in Santander but did not apparently test the Basque area where it would seem the Iberian peak is. 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 04:48:28 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #324 on: October 26, 2010, 07:54:23 PM »

Found a brand new Spanish R-L21 in Ysearch: Carrasco, Ysearch 7WB3C.

The entry just lists Spain for a location and nothing more detailed. I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.
Logged

Pages: 1 ... 11 12 [13] 14 15 ... 19 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.084 seconds with 19 queries.