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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2009, 09:29:39 AM »

I hope the link will work properly:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=379223&blobtype=pdf
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2009, 10:47:17 AM »

Rich,

I see a second Iberian L21+ has appeared on Ysearch (Barreto, AF8GN), and you have him on your map.  Have you contacted him yet?



I emailed him and asked him to join the project, but he hasn't answered me (along with a bunch of other people). I went ahead and put him on the map in Madrid, with a note that he just lists "Spain" for his ancestor and no more specific location.

We got a few more L21 results for guys with Hispanic surnames last night, all of them L21-, including one whose ancestor lived in the Azores but was born in the French Basque country, and one whose ancestor came from Cadiz.
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« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2009, 10:50:46 AM »

BTW for my theory to be right, Iberia should be indeed L21-, while L21+ be shown in some numbers among Basques

What, exactly, is your theory?

You believe L21 will turn up frequently among the Basques?

Is there any way for you to recruit some Basques for testing? I'm all for ferreting out the truth, whatever it may be.

Just for the record, though, I think you are wrong. Too much L21- among the Basques, in my humble opinion.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 11:06:47 AM by rms2 » Logged

IALEM
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« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2009, 11:12:39 AM »

I posted it earlier in this thread. As there are no numbers for posts I quote it here again.

"I think my test is significant in that I can trace my paternal line back to the 14th century in the Basque Country, so any recent migration can be ruled out.
For that same reason i think that more L-21+ can be found in the Basque Country in the large P-312 group of population that is not M-153 or M-157 and that still makes more than half the group and almost half the whole population.
However, a very important point I would like to make is that Basque Country is not at all representative of Iberia as a whole, on the contrary Adams et alii (2008) shows that it is quite different and in turn almost identical to Gascony.
So, I would not be surprised is L-21+ turns in significative numbers among Basques and still in very low numbers in iberia as a whole.
IMO when talking about genetics, Baque Country and Gascony, as far as we know, should be treated as a separated province, differentr from Iberia and France.
I am not talking here about the Franco-Cantabrian refuge theory here, though, rather from amore recent historical perspective, it would prove the late arrival of the Basques to modern Spanish Basque Country from the north of the Pyrenees, as archaeological findings strongly support."


Basically, there is a theory that proposes Basques arrived south of the Pyrenees from Aquitania in the 6th Century AD. This theory has a strong archaeological and historical support, and if Basques turn L21+ in significant numbers while Iberia as a whole don´t it could mean they remained for a long period in modern France, close to areas heavy L21+, giving additional support to that theory.
I could try the recruiting, but I will try to be more selective than the Basque project at FTDNA!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 11:14:34 AM by IALEM » Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

IALEM
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« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2009, 11:16:05 AM »




I emailed him and asked him to join the project, but he hasn't answered me (along with a bunch of other people). I went ahead and put him on the map in Madrid, with a note that he just lists "Spain" for his ancestor and no more specific location.


If that is of any help, Barreto is a Galician surname.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 11:17:10 AM by IALEM » Logged

Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

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« Reply #80 on: April 09, 2009, 11:22:16 AM »

I posted it earlier in this thread. As there are no numbers for posts I quote it here again.

"I think my test is significant in that I can trace my paternal line back to the 14th century in the Basque Country, so any recent migration can be ruled out.
For that same reason i think that more L-21+ can be found in the Basque Country in the large P-312 group of population that is not M-153 or M-157 and that still makes more than half the group and almost half the whole population.
However, a very important point I would like to make is that Basque Country is not at all representative of Iberia as a whole, on the contrary Adams et alii (2008) shows that it is quite different and in turn almost identical to Gascony.
So, I would not be surprised is L-21+ turns in significative numbers among Basques and still in very low numbers in iberia as a whole.
IMO when talking about genetics, Baque Country and Gascony, as far as we know, should be treated as a separated province, differentr from Iberia and France.
I am not talking here about the Franco-Cantabrian refuge theory here, though, rather from amore recent historical perspective, it would prove the late arrival of the Basques to modern Spanish Basque Country from the north of the Pyrenees, as archaeological findings strongly support."


Basically, there is a theory that proposes Basques arrived south of the Pyrenees from Aquitania in the 6th Century AD. This theory has a strong archaeological and historical support, and if Basques turn L21+ in significant numbers while Iberia as a whole don´t it could mean they remained for a long period in modern France, close to areas heavy L21+, giving additional support to that theory.


Okay, thanks. Very well written and thought out. It will be interesting to watch and see how that pans out, one way or the other.

Thus far, we have only a couple of results for historical Gascony, and they are both L21-. One, Lorda (YSearch NR4JG), says he is of Basque descent.

You are the only R-L21* from anywhere even close to that region, but the sample size is, obviously, extremely small.

(You could do us a HUGE favor and upgrade to 67 markers, you know!)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 11:23:18 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: April 09, 2009, 11:24:58 AM »


If that is of any help, Barreto is a Galician surname.


That is helpful, thanks.

I'm going to email my friend Robert Tarin, who runs the Iberia Project, and see if he knows Mr. Barreto and can convince him to join.
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IALEM
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« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2009, 11:40:41 AM »

Many thanks, it worked.
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Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

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« Reply #83 on: April 09, 2009, 11:42:06 AM »


You are the only R-L21* from anywhere even close to that region, but the sample size is, obviously, extremely small.

(You could do us a HUGE favor and upgrade to 67 markers, you know!)
What would be the benefit of upgrading to 67 markers?
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Y-DNA L21+


MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #84 on: April 09, 2009, 12:36:24 PM »

... (You could do us a HUGE favor and upgrade to 67 markers, you know!)
What would be the benefit of upgrading to 67 markers?
RMS2 probably has some strong input here, but I'll throw in my two cents:
I found that I had a few people that matched with me at 12 and 25 markers, but when I switched to 67 markers I found the original few were NOT closely related. I did find 4-5 others with most recent common ancestors in the 500 year range with me.  We identified our own little "cluster".  They were from Wales, UK and that seems to confirm my family's folklore.   The others in the cluster are only about 30 KM from each other.    Later I found another person who fit in with our cluster with a slight variation to my surname.  We are trying to match up our genealogical notes.
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« Reply #85 on: April 09, 2009, 02:13:37 PM »


What would be the benefit of upgrading to 67 markers?

What Mike said is absolutely right, but I would also like to add that you have all sorts of 12-marker matches with people outside your own subclade. Godoy, for example, is a member of the R-P312 and Subclades Project, and I know for a fact he is L21-. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

67 markers would provide greater resolution. We could see with whom you really do cluster. It helps me, for one thing, to try to recruit potential new members when I can tell them they have a close match with a known L21+. That motivates them to order the L21 test or the Deep Clade-R. It also helps us to get a more accurate L21 modal and a more accurate picture of overall L21 variance.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 06:36:26 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2009, 06:44:40 PM »

Over the last couple of days I have been recruiting another R-L21* guy with an Hispanic surname I found in YSearch. He agreed to join yesterday but had some trouble, so I had to have FTDNA get him in, and Ashley Coursey did that for me today. The surname is Vasconcelos, which I understand is another Galician surname. However, this man cannot get his paper trail out of Brazil, unfortunately.

Interestingly, he said his paternal grandfather was tall and had blond hair and green eyes.

I am also working with Robert Tarin and Angel Cervantes to recruit Barreto for the project.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 06:45:08 PM by rms2 » Logged

Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #87 on: April 11, 2009, 04:01:51 AM »

Beakers vs. Basques:


I think the white non-Beaker area can be the Basque area during the Bronze Age. Thats in line with IALEM's Aquitanian migration theory that Basques came from the North of the Pyrennees.
Probably M65 and M153 groups lived west of the other P-312 groups, namely in the Seine and Loire valleys.
Later only L21 and M167 was involved in Beaker migration plus Hallstatt; and U152 only in the Iron Age La Tene.
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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« Reply #88 on: April 11, 2009, 01:23:57 PM »

I think the white non-Beaker area can be the Basque area during the Bronze Age. Thats in line with IALEM's Aquitanian migration theory that Basques came from the North of the Pyrennees.
Probably M65 and M153 groups lived west of the other P-312 groups, namely in the Seine and Loire valleys.
Later only L21 and M167 was involved in Beaker migration plus Hallstatt; and U152 only in the Iron Age La Tene.
I don't think we should look at this graphic of the Bell Beaker cultures as a solid orange versus a solid white (Basque) for several reasons:
1) The Bell Beaker folks did integrate to some degree, maybe to a great degree, with prior inhabitants.   Think of it is as a splotchy fade-in/fade-out polk-dot orange.
2) All white areas should not be considered Aquitanian and therefore Basque.  There were people called Ligurians and Iberians that labeled as being in these geographies.   The intent of the map was not to denote "white" as all singular something-else.  It may have been a very diverse hodge-podge without much in the way of a common language or common culture.  The Basques may just be the remnants of one of these groups.   There is no solid white on the map.  It just everything else, except Beaker culture.
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« Reply #89 on: April 11, 2009, 01:27:28 PM »

....and U152 only in the Iron Age La Tene.
Why do you associate La Tene Celts as U152+ only?   U152's ancestor,  P312*, is likely to be found with him in his homeland at least.   U152 is also spread quite a ways east and down into Italy.   Part of U152 might have been Italo-Celt.
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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #90 on: April 13, 2009, 06:32:29 AM »

Mike, I did not say that all La Tene were U-152 but that U-152 is likely to start migration only then... Of course there should have been others as well. It would be interesting how many U-152 are in Central and Southern Italy that are not connected to Celts. Probably you are right that it can be Italo-Celt.

I agree with the map-critic, I just wanted to show that there is a quite big non-Beaker whole in France where Pre-IE languages could have survived
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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« Reply #91 on: April 13, 2009, 09:06:14 AM »

.... I agree with the map-critic, I just wanted to show that there is a quite big non-Beaker whole in France where Pre-IE languages could have survived
Agreed, although I'm not sure what you mean by "Pre"-IE.   I would say there is very likely to have been non IE languages in parts of Gaul and Iberia, in fact the Mesolithic and Neolithic timeframes in Western Europe were likely to all be non IE.... my guess is there were multiple non IE languages.
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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #92 on: April 14, 2009, 04:00:43 AM »

Yes, I absolutely agree. I also meant non-IE under pre-IE
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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« Reply #93 on: May 27, 2009, 08:02:30 PM »

I found a new (new to me, anyway) Iberian R-L21* this evening, here (kit 46334, Sampedro): http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, but I've already added him to the map.
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« Reply #94 on: May 27, 2009, 08:52:35 PM »

I found a new (new to me, anyway) Iberian R-L21* this evening, here (kit 46334, Sampedro): http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project, but I've already added him to the map.

Mr. Sampedro has joined the project and is represented by an entry in the Southern Europe category and a placemark on the R-L21* Map.

Sometimes hunting through the various projects pays off!
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« Reply #95 on: May 27, 2009, 09:39:51 PM »

rms2, I went into the Iberian project to look for Sampedro.  I noticed this as well, which is new to my records.   Sorry if I'm redundant but just wanted to make sure you have him.
46448   Barreto   Severiano Barreto, born c. 1800
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« Reply #96 on: May 28, 2009, 10:29:22 AM »

rms2, I went into the Iberian project to look for Sampedro.  I noticed this as well, which is new to my records.   Sorry if I'm redundant but just wanted to make sure you have him.
46448   Barreto   Severiano Barreto, born c. 1800


Yeah, I have Barreto, on the map that is. I have emailed him a couple of times trying to get him to join the project and have had Robert Tarin and Angel Cervantes email him, as well. He just doesn't seem to want to join. I put him on the map in Madrid, although I don't know from where in Spain his ancestor came.
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« Reply #97 on: June 03, 2009, 07:26:09 AM »

I found another possible Spanish R-L21* yesterday evening. I would have posted about it right away, but we were hit with some hellacious thunderstorms last night, so I had to shut off the computer (and then we lost power for awhile anyway). It was quite a light show.

Anyway, the possible R-L21* (I say "possible" because it's from YSearch) is Montero, YSearch Q3JQX, whose ancestor came from Extremadura. The entry doesn't say where in Extremadura, however.

Extremadura was part of Lusitania in ancient times.
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« Reply #98 on: June 05, 2009, 11:15:24 AM »

Montero has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Caceres in Extremadura.
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« Reply #99 on: June 13, 2009, 05:06:24 PM »

I just found a new Spanish "R1b1b2a1b5" in YSearch, Llanso, E6TSU. The entry just lists "Spain" as place of origin; it doesn't say where in Spain.

I sent him an email inviting him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2009, 05:34:19 PM by rms2 » Logged

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