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Author Topic: Iberian R-L21*  (Read 36567 times)
rms2
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« on: February 21, 2009, 08:27:46 AM »

Yesterday we acquired our first L21+ who can trace his ancestry to Iberia - in this case, Spain: Arrizabalaga. His most distant ancestor came from Azcoitia in the Basque country, and Arrizabalaga is a Basque surname. I have added him to the R-L21* Map.

Thus far, Iberia remains overwhelmingly L21-, but it would be nice if all our Iberian brethren were fully SNP tested.

Unfortunately, Arrizabalaga has only a 12-marker haplotype at this time.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2009, 06:41:29 PM »

This is an outrage! The man is obviously a German!

I have already called the police (no, not the British Band!), and they said to, "...put the Basque man down and step away from the SNP"!

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2009, 07:13:58 PM »

No, it is proof of the Milesian legends, only they had the direction of travel the wrong way.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2009, 09:31:10 PM »

This is an outrage! The man is obviously a German!

I have already called the police (no, not the British Band!), and they said to, "...put the Basque man down and step away from the SNP"!

Thanks,  Miles

I must have missed something.

I guess one Basque in a comparative sea of L21- Iberian results is the equivalent of twelve L21+ Germans, nine L21+ Scandinavians, seven L21+ Frenchmen, etc., etc.

The game is up now!

L21 must have been born in the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge"! ;-)

« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 09:45:30 PM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2009, 11:52:51 AM »

I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2009, 01:57:43 PM »

I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles
Can you tell from their designation if they are definitely R-21* versus the sub-clades underneath, R-M222, R-M37 or R-P66?
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2009, 03:59:32 PM »

Can you tell from their designation if they are definitely R-21* versus the sub-clades underneath, R-M222, R-M37 or R-P66?

They all have there own designations that you can search for, assuming they are FTDNA customers it gets updated automatically when FTDNA changes the name.

There aren't any P66's though, as this has only been found once, and they forgot were they put that result, also M37 is private. When the boffins get round too discovering my private SNP I'll be expecting the same level of service from FTDNA.

By the way would it be unreasonable to say that somebody who has a GD of 2 out of 25 has a good chance of having the same haplogroup (L21*), if so I have one in Czech, one in Belgium, and one in Switzerland

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eochaidh
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 06:16:37 PM »

I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles
Can you tell from their designation if they are definitely R-21* versus the sub-clades underneath, R-M222, R-M37 or R-P66?

They are simply L21+ by FTDNA testing. This was just updated on Sunday or Monday, I believe.

Thanks,  Miles
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2009, 07:11:27 PM »

I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles

Arrizabalaga traces his y ancestor to Spain.

Barreto I emailed via Ysearch, but he hasn't answered me.

Cienfuegos cannot trace his ancestry to Spain (I cannot say any more but you are barking up the wrong tree there).

Montanez and I have exchanged emails. He has a family tradition of an English ancestor on the island of Martinique.

Moreno lists his most distant y ancestor with the very un-Hispanic surname of Raford.

Palmas I don't know anything about.

I have little doubt there will be some L21+ in Iberia (there were Celts in Iberia, after all), but take a gander at the R-L21* Map and the R-P312* Map. Unless there is a huge reversal of the way things have been going, it doesn't seem likely the Milesian legend is going to survive genetics.
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2009, 07:48:28 PM »

Palmas (AEBDH) doesn't have any real close neighbors at 67 markers, but at 34-25 he has many, and they are overwhelmingly British and Irish. He is only one off the "Colla Uais" Modal (C57NK), and he has exact 25-marker matches with a Stewart from Scotland and a Jordan from the USA.

Palmas lists a most distant y ancestor named Lopez born in Mexico in about 1918.

No offense, but I wouldn't assume a solid Iberian connection merely because someone is from Mexico and has a Spanish surname.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 07:52:11 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2009, 11:20:16 PM »

"it doesn't seem likely the Milesian legend is going to survive genetics."

Except for R-U152 DYS 385a and 385b at 11 and 19

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

"81807 Blair at DYS #385a and 385b at 11 and 19 is also a Scottish surname from the Scotland DNA Project. DF7SK, Corsi from La Cavada, Santander, Spain at DYS #385a and 385b at 11 and 19 and DYS #492 at 14 supports a genetic relationship consistent with that of Irish Scythian Milesian ancestry."

 
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eochaidh
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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2009, 11:38:58 PM »

I used the new Haplogroup designation, R1b1b1ab5 (L21+) to search for Iberian L21+ men and found six. One is the same as aboe, and some would be listed as "Colonial" if they joined the L21+ Project, but still I find it significant. Here they are:

Arizzabalaga (5whys) Azcoitia, Spain
Barreto (af8gn) Spain
Cienfuegos (59jdm) Spain
Montanez (jzbvj) Puerto Rico
Moreno (rw4qr) Puerto Rico
Palmas (aebdh) Mexico   I match 23/25 with this guy.

Thanks,  Miles

Arrizabalaga traces his y ancestor to Spain.

Barreto I emailed via Ysearch, but he hasn't answered me.

Cienfuegos cannot trace his ancestry to Spain (I cannot say any more but you are barking up the wrong tree there).

Montanez and I have exchanged emails. He has a family tradition of an English ancestor on the island of Martinique.

Moreno lists his most distant y ancestor with the very un-Hispanic surname of Raford.

Palmas I don't know anything about.

I have little doubt there will be some L21+ in Iberia (there were Celts in Iberia, after all), but take a gander at the R-L21* Map and the R-P312* Map. Unless there is a huge reversal of the way things have been going, it doesn't seem likely the Milesian legend is going to survive genetics.
I didn't say anything about the Milesian legend in my post.

Thanks,  Miles

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eochaidh
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2009, 11:43:54 PM »

Palmas (AEBDH) doesn't have any real close neighbors at 67 markers, but at 34-25 he has many, and they are overwhelmingly British and Irish. He is only one off the "Colla Uais" Modal (C57NK), and he has exact 25-marker matches with a Stewart from Scotland and a Jordan from the USA.

Palmas lists a most distant y ancestor named Lopez born in Mexico in about 1918.

No offense, but I wouldn't assume a solid Iberian connection merely because someone is from Mexico and has a Spanish surname.

I hope all groups are judged this strictly. Erickson matches up with Scots and Irish, so let us not be quick to assume that anyone from Minnesota with a Scandinavian sounding name has a connection with Scandinavbia. Please don't assume that anyone from Quebec with a French sounding name has a connection with France.

Perhaps Iberian L21+ are being treated like Faux's Irish U152s. They are explained away to fit the template.


thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2009, 07:53:48 AM »

Palmas (AEBDH) doesn't have any real close neighbors at 67 markers, but at 34-25 he has many, and they are overwhelmingly British and Irish. He is only one off the "Colla Uais" Modal (C57NK), and he has exact 25-marker matches with a Stewart from Scotland and a Jordan from the USA.

Palmas lists a most distant y ancestor named Lopez born in Mexico in about 1918.

No offense, but I wouldn't assume a solid Iberian connection merely because someone is from Mexico and has a Spanish surname.

I hope all groups are judged this strictly. Erickson matches up with Scots and Irish, so let us not be quick to assume that anyone from Minnesota with a Scandinavian sounding name has a connection with Scandinavbia. Please don't assume that anyone from Quebec with a French sounding name has a connection with France.

Perhaps Iberian L21+ are being treated like Faux's Irish U152s. They are explained away to fit the template.


thanks,  Miles

Wrong. I think you have the "template", Miles. You have said before you were raised with the Milesian legend. You like it, and you would like it to be true.

This comment: "Perhaps Iberian L21+ are being treated like Faux's Irish U152s. They are explained away to fit the template," is just plain wrong. In fact, it's a lie, plain and simple.

I contact EVERY continental L21+ I can find, Iberian and otherwise. When Rick and I first began the R-P312 and Subclades Project, the FIRST thing I did was to contact Robert Tarin, the admin of the Iberia Project, and ask him to recruit Iberian guys to test for P312. I am still in constant email contact with him trying to recruit Iberian guys for Deep Clade testing, including L21. If they were going L21 in any numbers, you think I would try to steer them away from the project or refuse to put them on my R-L21* Map? Not hardly.

If it turns out any of the Scandinavian guys is actually of Scottish or Irish descent, so be it. I don't think they are, but Palmas is ONE off the Colla Uais Modal, Miles, not five or six or ten off it. And he doesn't actually have a known Spanish ancestor. He can only get back to 1918 in Mexico.

Arrizabalaga is Spanish apparently. Barreto may be, but he hasn't answered my email, although I asked him to join the R-L21 Project. I'm in the same boat with Roland (I forget the YSearch ID), a new R1b1b2a1b5 with German ancestry. I emailed him, too, and invited him to join the project: no answer. That happens all the time. I email people and ask them to test or to join the project and most of them never answer.

The information I have on some of the guys you named - the ones with Hispanic surnames but who are not actually of Spanish y line descent - I did not solicit. I did not set out to "debunk" their Spanish ancestry. They either provided the info themselves or someone else told me (in one case only) and I confirmed it with them.

Now, Miles, feel free to recruit as many Iberian guys as you can to test for L21. Pay for their tests yourself, if you want. As many of them as test L21+ are very welcome in the R-L21 Plus Project. Lord knows Robert Tarin and I could use your help.

Oh, and by the way, no one gets into one of the specific European categories on our Y Results page merely by virtue of having a surname that sounds like it should belong to this or that country in Europe. I don't run the Mayflower Society, so I don't demand proof of genealogy. If a person says he can trace his ancestry to a person who was born in the Old World, I accept it, but we don't have any guys "from Minnesota" who are in the "Scandinavia" category merely because they have a Scandinavian surname. In fact, most of the men in the Scandinavia category actually live in Scandinavia.

And Arrizabalaga, the one man thus far in our "Southern Europe" category, actually lives in Spain.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 11:31:27 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2009, 04:54:52 PM »

The template I'm talking about extends far beyond L21+. It also is found with U106+, U152+, and other subclades. I know a U106+ man who was born and raised in Ireland, has a native Irish name, and still lives in Ireland currently, yet he has been told he can't be a genuine Irishman. He must either be the product of an NPE, or a name change by a recent invader, because he is U106+. U106 has been around for an estimated 4,000 years, and it seems to me that it is very possible that this man's Y line could have entered Ireland long before Historical times. I'm L21+, so his U106 could have entered Ireland before my Y line.

The same thing was done by Faux and U152, when it comes to Ireland. I believe this to be narrow thinking, and trying to fit a template. When it comes to Iberian L21+, I think it is very possible for it to have spread to Iberia thousands of years ago. L21+ is estimated to be 3,500 years old and to have originated in either Germany or France, so it had plenty of time to have spread to Iberia.

It is not just this forum that uses this template. I wrote posted the same infromation of what I found on Ysearch on another forum and immediately the responses were of recent migrations.

One of the scenarios I brought up a while back, that of families and clans migrating other than mass migrations is now being used by other posters. Perhaps families and clans from Germany migrated to Iberia and are not detectable by archaeology.

As far asd the Milesian legend, yes, I was raised hearing it. It was taught in schools in Ireland, and may still be taught there. You will find people in northern Portugal and northern Spain who may also have been taught about the Milesians in school. It is not a "Santa Claus" type of myth. When it has been taught, it has often been taught as Historical fact. I have stated several times on these boards that it appears as if genetics will show that it is not true. I also, through my genetic testing, have shown that I am not "of the same stock" as the O'Byrnes as written in Irish Genealogies. So be it. I tested to find these things out.


Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2009, 06:38:59 PM »

A "template" implies a design, and a design in this case implies some sort of coordinated conspiracy to suppress the truth. That is not the case at all.

There is no conspiracy among the admins of various projects to make the Irish one thing and the Iberians another.

If an Irish U106 - I know who you are talking about - wants to believe he is some kind of "Pre-Celt" (which is what that individual claimed), then let him have at it. I think it flies in the face of what we know about U106, but so be it.

You accused me of trying to "explain away" any and all Iberian L21+ because it doesn't fit the "template," and that is just plain crap, not to mention utterly false.

I have no "template."
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2009, 08:06:02 PM »

By template I only mean a way of thinking that appears to be constricted by accepted views. I don't think any conspiracy is taking place. Nor do I think that the Irish are being picked on. I would say that in the case of Faux and U152 in Ireland that he certainly was looking for any way to keep native Irish from being U152. In this case I think it's more along the lines of "the U106+ can't be native Irish" because it doesn't fit common belief. I think that common belief may hold true in many cases, but I think it is likely that some U106+ reached Ireland before Celtic times there. It had over 1000 years to migrate there, and I think it did; even if in very smalll numbers.

I simply don't think people should be told they can't be this, or they must be this because of the accepted theories. There are exceptions to any "rule" especially when we are talking about the movement and spread of any subclade.

On the other forum, the Basque guy is already being told directly that he is probably descended from a migrating Briton in Historical times. I'm just saying that perhaps some L21+ migrated to Iberia in pre-Historical times, even if in small (maybe very small) numbers.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2009, 08:33:44 PM »

We can only look at the facts and the distribution of haplogroups and subclades. We can't stop anyone from imagining that his own ancestors were the exception and erecting a complex fantasy for himself based on the very remote possibility that it could be true.

Yes, anything is possible, but not everything is likely.
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2009, 09:23:53 PM »

By template I only mean a way of thinking that appears to be constricted by accepted views. I don't think any conspiracy is taking place. Nor do I think that the Irish are being picked on. I would say that in the case of Faux and U152 in Ireland that he certainly was looking for any way to keep native Irish from being U152. In this case I think it's more along the lines of "the U106+ can't be native Irish" because it doesn't fit common belief. I think that common belief may hold true in many cases, but I think it is likely that some U106+ reached Ireland before Celtic times there. It had over 1000 years to migrate there, and I think it did; even if in very smalll numbers.

I simply don't think people should be told they can't be this, or they must be this because of the accepted theories. There are exceptions to any "rule" especially when we are talking about the movement and spread of any subclade.

On the other forum, the Basque guy is already being told directly that he is probably descended from a migrating Briton in Historical times. I'm just saying that perhaps some L21+ migrated to Iberia in pre-Historical times, even if in small (maybe very small) numbers.

Thanks,  Miles
Leaving aside your comments about the template, I generally agree with the rest of your comments. I don't think Faux's attempt to explain away U162 in Ireland as English or Scottish was due to an anti-Irish bias, but rather to preserve his theory that U152 was only found in the Danelaw in England and therefor due the descendants of Viking invaders. I don't think we should rule out the possibility that U106 was present amongst the Celts in Ireland. Nor do I think it is impossible or even unlikely that L21 could have reached Iberia in prehistoric times, although it doesn't look like it is going to be very common there. But when I maintained on another forum that L21 in Scandinavia could be "native Scandinavian," you went ballistic. Do you not see some irony here?
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2009, 09:45:29 PM »

By template I only mean a way of thinking that appears to be constricted by accepted views. I don't think any conspiracy is taking place. Nor do I think that the Irish are being picked on. I would say that in the case of Faux and U152 in Ireland that he certainly was looking for any way to keep native Irish from being U152. In this case I think it's more along the lines of "the U106+ can't be native Irish" because it doesn't fit common belief. I think that common belief may hold true in many cases, but I think it is likely that some U106+ reached Ireland before Celtic times there. It had over 1000 years to migrate there, and I think it did; even if in very smalll numbers.

I simply don't think people should be told they can't be this, or they must be this because of the accepted theories. There are exceptions to any "rule" especially when we are talking about the movement and spread of any subclade.

On the other forum, the Basque guy is already being told directly that he is probably descended from a migrating Briton in Historical times. I'm just saying that perhaps some L21+ migrated to Iberia in pre-Historical times, even if in small (maybe very small) numbers.

Thanks,  Miles

Funny, you neglected to mention that I also stated to the Basque guy that there could also be a nice population of L21 still unknown and hiding in Iberia, but after only 15 or so P312 guys in Iberia that have taken the L21 test, it hadn't shown up yet, and as far as exactly when his ancestor arrived - I couldn't even hazard a guess.  Please colour it for what it is.
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2009, 10:28:10 PM »

By template I only mean a way of thinking that appears to be constricted by accepted views. I don't think any conspiracy is taking place. Nor do I think that the Irish are being picked on. I would say that in the case of Faux and U152 in Ireland that he certainly was looking for any way to keep native Irish from being U152. In this case I think it's more along the lines of "the U106+ can't be native Irish" because it doesn't fit common belief. I think that common belief may hold true in many cases, but I think it is likely that some U106+ reached Ireland before Celtic times there. It had over 1000 years to migrate there, and I think it did; even if in very smalll numbers.

I simply don't think people should be told they can't be this, or they must be this because of the accepted theories. There are exceptions to any "rule" especially when we are talking about the movement and spread of any subclade.

On the other forum, the Basque guy is already being told directly that he is probably descended from a migrating Briton in Historical times. I'm just saying that perhaps some L21+ migrated to Iberia in pre-Historical times, even if in small (maybe very small) numbers.

Thanks,  Miles

Funny, you neglected to mention that I also stated to the Basque guy that there could also be a nice population of L21 still unknown and hiding in Iberia, but after only 15 or so P312 guys in Iberia that have taken the L21 test, it hadn't shown up yet, and as far as exactly when his ancestor arrived - I couldn't even hazard a guess.  Please colour it for what it is.
I wasn't even thinking of you, Vince, and I don't think I read your post. I was talking about either neatherhead or JA, I think. I'd have to go back and check.

I also was going to mention earlier that someone said that Tarin has 7 of 21 tested for L21 as postive, which is 25%, but I'm not sure whether that data is correct because it's second hand, so I left it out.

I don't think we could ever know exactly when his particular ancestor arrived, but I'm just saying L21+ could have spread to Iberia very early in its 3,500 year History.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2009, 09:06:17 AM »

If Robert Tarin has seven Iberians who are L21+, he hasn't told me about it, and we communicate by email on a pretty regular basis and on that very subject.

By the way, if you are counting all those with Hispanic surnames, whether they can get their paper trails across the Pond or not, there are a few more L21- like that in the R-P312 and Subclades Project. They are in the "R-P312* Colonial" category, and one of them (Ruiz) is in the "Unassigned Members" category: Figueroa, Melgoza, Vidal, Robles, Lizzaraga, Arzac, and Ruiz.

Those are in addition to the Iberian L21- on the R-P312* Map. Add to them the Iberians who belong to L21- subclades like R-M167 (SRY2627), R-M153, R-U106 and R-U152, and you get a broader picture.

It is possible, as Vince said above, that there could be some R-L21* hiding in Iberia, but it certainly doesn't seem like there could be much.

Anyway, I'm sure there will be some. Practically every European haplogroup and subclade is found in Iberia to some extent. There are even a couple of I1s in the Basque Project, after all.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 09:33:31 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2009, 05:05:50 AM »

For L21 in Iberia there can be 3 good explanations:
1. Celtic migration late first millennium BC from the Rhine valley where L21 was likely to originate
2. Germanic migration in the 5th-6th century from the same area (Franks and Burgundians most likely, as Goths and Vandals were East German where L21 is less frequent)
3. I know that people here do not agree with me but if P312 originates from the Basque area, L21 mutation probably could arise before the Beaker migration northwards, thus Iberian L21s can be native there.

Present Iberian L21 can come from both the 1-2. and probably from the 3.version.
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2009, 10:40:54 AM »

For L21 in Iberia there can be 3 good explanations:
1. Celtic migration late first millennium BC from the Rhine valley where L21 was likely to originate
2. Germanic migration in the 5th-6th century from the same area (Franks and Burgundians most likely, as Goths and Vandals were East German where L21 is less frequent)
3. I know that people here do not agree with me but if P312 originates from the Basque area, L21 mutation probably could arise before the Beaker migration northwards, thus Iberian L21s can be native there.

Present Iberian L21 can come from both the 1-2. and probably from the 3.version.

1 and 2 are possibilities, but it isn't likely P312 originated with the Basques. What the fascination with the Basques is I don't know nor can I fathom.

Why the heck do they always seem to me made the measure of all things R1b1b2? Good grief! One would think they were the majority population of Europe rather than a tiny, rather odd minority.

I doubt that the first Basques were even R1b1b2 at all.
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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2009, 03:10:27 AM »

I will argue with myself :-)

Pro: if you look at the subbranches of P312, then it gives the "Franco-Cantabrian region". It is a widely accepted view that a lineage (Y-DNA or even language family) tend to originate from the place where it is the most diverse. And all P312 downstream lineages are only found among the Basques. (Not to be misunderstood, I add that I do not mean P312 was in the LGM refuge but only around 3000 BC)

Contra: However a counterargument is that U-106 and P-312 together is the most diverse in the Rhineland therefore S-127 their common ancestor should have originated there. Now, it is quite impossible that P312* went down to the Pyrennees and then went back to the Rhineland where L-21 and U-152 likely appeared.

So the question is quite tricky...

If R1b1b2 was not Basque, then who would? I suppose we have only the I2-M26 people, but it is unlikely that they retained their language while around 85% of their male population was replaced by R1b1b2 folks.

I can't decide...
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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