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NealtheRed
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« Reply #125 on: October 28, 2009, 07:07:30 PM »

I think the only way to avoid that is to get people to accurately display the origin of their MDKA.
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rms2
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« Reply #126 on: October 28, 2009, 08:42:29 PM »

It may be awhile before we know, since Mr. Cantu has not responded to my emails and has not joined the project.

My guess is that he is Spanish enough, but his y line could have originated in Italy. I just don't know, and he may not know either.

The omission of an accent or other diacritical mark is meaningless in an American context, so "Cantu" could just be Cantù sans the accent mark.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 08:42:56 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #127 on: October 29, 2009, 07:20:01 AM »

One thought I have is that its interesting that no Portugese are L21.  It is trendy to look at the Atlantic seaboard idea of proto-Celtic links between Iberia and the isles. However, half the Atlantic seaboard of Iberia consists of Portugal with the rest made up of Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria  and the Basque County in Spain. Nearly the entirety of this seaboard lacks any L21 until you are practically at the French border and even then it is in the country of the non-Celtic Basques.  Its early days but so far L21 remains completely absent in the areas where the coastal Atlantic Celtic and Lusitanian tribes of Iberia were located. 

There is however a lot of S116* along that seaboard.  That suggests that whatever contact there was between the S116* dominated Iberian Atlantic coast and the L21* dominated Irish/western British seaboards involved very little exchange of y-DNA.  This is also supported by the lack of the Iberian specific R1b clades in Ireland and vice versa and of course a lack of non-R1b clades like E that are common in Atlantic Iberia.     

« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 07:39:45 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #128 on: October 29, 2009, 09:51:49 AM »

One thought I have is that its interesting that no Portugese are L21.  It is trendy to look at the Atlantic seaboard idea of proto-Celtic links between Iberia and the isles. However, half the Atlantic seaboard of Iberia consists of Portugal with the rest made up of Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria  and the Basque County in Spain. Nearly the entirety of this seaboard lacks any L21 until you are practically at the French border and even then it is in the country of the non-Celtic Basques.  Its early days but so far L21 remains completely absent in the areas where the coastal Atlantic Celtic and Lusitanian tribes of Iberia were located.  

There is however a lot of S116* along that seaboard.  That suggests that whatever contact there was between the S116* dominated Iberian Atlantic coast and the L21* dominated Irish/western British seaboards involved very little exchange of y-DNA.  This is also supported by the lack of the Iberian specific R1b clades in Ireland and vice versa and of course a lack of non-R1b clades like E that are common in Atlantic Iberia.    
I'm seeking to better understand the lasting genetic impact of the Neolithic LBK and Impressed Wares advances. If either P312*(S116*) or L21* expanded with them, shouldn't there be more of the E and J Neolithic varieties where you find P312*,  L21* and U152 for that matter?  That seems possible for P312* but not particularly not for L21* given E and J really drops where L21* resides.  

Perhaps we could find a cluster or two of R-P312* that fit the E and J distributions?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 01:53:20 PM by Mike » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #129 on: October 29, 2009, 01:18:44 PM »

I think S116 is the missing link.  We have a fairly good idea of the focus of clades both up and downstream of S116 but S116* just seems so widespread that the area where S116 is oldest/originated could really be anywhere.  I would like to see MRCA variance dates for S116* in Italy, Spain, NW Europe (minus the isles) and central/eastern Europe compared. There could be a pattern although there may not be a detectable one if it spread quickly.  You get the impression of R1b1b2 in general that it sat for millenia somewhere with not much happening before suddenly exploding.   
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #130 on: October 29, 2009, 01:55:34 PM »

I think S116 is the missing link.  We have a fairly good idea of the focus of clades both up and downstream of S116 but S116* just seems so widespread that the area where S116 is oldest/originated could really be anywhere. 
S116 (P312) is akin to the Bell Beakers in that respect.  They origination still remains up in the air - almost anywhere.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #131 on: October 29, 2009, 03:14:51 PM »

I think S116 is the missing link.  We have a fairly good idea of the focus of clades both up and downstream of S116 but S116* just seems so widespread that the area where S116 is oldest/originated could really be anywhere.  I would like to see MRCA variance dates for S116* in Italy, Spain, NW Europe (minus the isles) and central/eastern Europe compared. There could be a pattern although there may not be a detectable one if it spread quickly.  You get the impression of R1b1b2 in general that it sat for millenia somewhere with not much happening before suddenly exploding.   
I think part of the problem is looking at P312* (S116*) as if it is monolithic and homogenous. Almost certainly it encompasses a number of various subclades with very different histories and distributions waiting for the discovery to new SNPs to differentiate them.
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rms2
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« Reply #132 on: October 29, 2009, 08:16:25 PM »

Well, Cantu has not joined (doesn't look like he will), but we just got a new Spanish R-L21*, Olazabal, out of Cadiz (YSearch j5s37).

I am thrilled with each continental result, but I want to caution those who jump at each Iberian result in order to impute all sorts of significance into it that L21 is still relatively rare in Iberia.

Iberia is actually fairly well tested (as a consequence of the big Hispanic presence in the New World, especially the USA, I think), and the other R1b1b2 clades overwhelmingly outnumber L21 there. Just look at the R-P312* Map, and it does not include probably even half the R-P312* results in the Iberian Peninsula, nor does it include all the R-M153, R-SRY2627, R-U152 or R-U106 there.

I suspect L21 forms a pretty low percentage of all the R1b1b2 in Iberia.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 08:16:56 PM by rms2 » Logged

argiedude
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« Reply #133 on: October 29, 2009, 08:27:46 PM »

http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/apellidos/apellido-cantu.html

It says they estimate 875 people have the last name Cantu in Spain.

http://www.gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html

Looks like 100 Italians with the last name Cantu, and clearly originating in Milan.

I think it's by far most likely his y-dna is from Spain.

..................................

Stevo, those P312* results in the map, are they all L21-? Or do they include old samples that tested negative for the limited known clades of 2 years ago, such as U152 and U106?
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rms2
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« Reply #134 on: October 29, 2009, 09:24:35 PM »

http://apellido.enfemenino.com/w/apellidos/apellido-cantu.html

It says they estimate 875 people have the last name Cantu in Spain.

http://www.gens.labo.net/it/cognomi/genera.html

Looks like 100 Italians with the last name Cantu, and clearly originating in Milan.

I think it's by far most likely his y-dna is from Spain.

..................................

Stevo, those P312* results in the map, are they all L21-? Or do they include old samples that tested negative for the limited known clades of 2 years ago, such as U152 and U106?

They are all L21- and negative for everything thus far known downstream of P312.

I don't think the number of people with the surname Cantu in Spain versus Italy on those two web sites means that much.

If you Google Cantu on the internet you can find forums where people with that surname with ancestry in Spain are discussing their Italian origin.

Maybe they just think they have Italian origin, I don't know, but it does seem odd that there is a city named Cantu in Italy and no city with that name in Spain or Portugal.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 09:26:19 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #135 on: October 29, 2009, 11:06:28 PM »

Again the new guy is not from the Celtic Atlantic seaboard of Iberia.  That sort of suggests to me that most of the Celtic or related speakers along the coasts of Iberia must have been L21 negative.  It is interesting that three are plotted in the interior.  There were 2 Celtic cultures in Spain.  One was an Atlantic one that seems to hark back deep into the Bronze Age.  It is hard not to conclude this was linked to S116*. 

In the interior there was the different classic Celti-Iberian culture that some suggest owed its existance to links to early Iron Age southern Gaul.  Perhaps they may have had a small S28 and L21 element brought in from that area.  Perhaps  some sort of interior-coast clade contrast will emerge. 

Its still worth noting that the Atlantic coast dwellers of Iberia could not be more different in L21 status to the Atlantic coast dwellers in the isles.  You are talking about a contrast in L21 count from 0 in coastal Iberia to 90-odd % among Gaelic surnamed Irish in western Ireland.  If it turns out that Iberian L21 is mainly from the interior then it becomes even clearer than the common origin point for L21 between Iberia and the Ireland is Gaul.         
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IALEM
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« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2009, 04:44:34 AM »

Well, Cantu has not joined (doesn't look like he will), but we just got a new Spanish R-L21*, Olazabal, out of Cadiz (YSearch j5s37).

Olazabal is a Basque surname (it means "large shack"), I knew I could not be alone for long as the only Basque L21+, as my Basque lineage is quite old, excluding any recent migration.
Olazabal lists Puerto Príncipe (Cuba) as point of origin, Cadiz is not listed, although it could well be the just the departure port from Spain, at the time only Cadiz and Seville were authorized to trade with American colonies.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 04:53:33 AM by IALEM » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2009, 07:39:43 AM »

Well, Cantu has not joined (doesn't look like he will), but we just got a new Spanish R-L21*, Olazabal, out of Cadiz (YSearch j5s37).

Olazabal is a Basque surname (it means "large shack"), I knew I could not be alone for long as the only Basque L21+, as my Basque lineage is quite old, excluding any recent migration.
Olazabal lists Puerto Príncipe (Cuba) as point of origin, Cadiz is not listed, although it could well be the just the departure port from Spain, at the time only Cadiz and Seville were authorized to trade with American colonies.


He lists Cadiz on his "Plot Ancestral Origins" page, so that is what shows up on the project's Y-DNA Results page.
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rms2
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« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2009, 08:23:48 AM »


Olazabal is a Basque surname (it means "large shack"), I knew I could not be alone for long as the only Basque L21+, as my Basque lineage is quite old, excluding any recent migration.
Olazabal lists Puerto Príncipe (Cuba) as point of origin, Cadiz is not listed, although it could well be the just the departure port from Spain, at the time only Cadiz and Seville were authorized to trade with American colonies.


I think you run into a problem because L21 is still pretty rare among persons of Iberian heritage, let alone persons of Basque heritage. It isn't even showing up in any numbers anywhere in the vicinity of Basque country, like old Aquitaine in France.

On the other hand, there are plenty of persons of Iberian ancestry being SNP tested and thus plenty of L21- results.
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IALEM
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« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2009, 09:28:04 AM »

It would be interesting to know how many people with Basque ancestry tested negative already for L21
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MDKA Lope de Arriçabalaga, born c. 1390 in Azcoitia, Basque Country

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« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2009, 06:22:52 PM »

It would be interesting to know how many people with Basque ancestry tested negative already for L21

It would, and it would be nice if someone would test a nice-sized Basque population sample for all the R1b1b2 SNPs.

I know that many men of Iberian ancestry (not all Basques, obviously) have been tested and by far most of them are L21-. Even the French we have tested down near the Spanish border have all been L21-.
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rms2
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« Reply #141 on: November 14, 2009, 09:42:12 AM »

I just found another new R-L21* in the Iberian Peninsula Project: Fernándes, kit 162171.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IberianDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

I can't find him in YSearch, but I have written to the admin of the Iberian Peninsula Project and to another guy I know to try to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

(I also put in a plea for another shot at getting Cantu into the project.)

According to the World Names Profiler, Fernándes spelled that way is supposed to be Portuguese rather than Spanish.

We'll see (I hope).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 09:44:49 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #142 on: November 14, 2009, 10:40:46 AM »

I didn't know that about Iberian surnames: the 's' ending denotes Portuguese ancestry.
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« Reply #143 on: November 14, 2009, 11:46:25 AM »

There's a guy over on Eupedia's Y-DNA Forum called "Cambria Red" who identifies himself as L21+. He is from Valenca do Minho in northern Portugal right on the border with Galicia, Spain.

Apparently he tested with 23andMe or some other company and can't join FTDNA projects, unfortunately.

Since he calls himself "Cambria Red", I am wondering if he is not originally from Wales, however.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 11:48:22 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #144 on: November 14, 2009, 01:52:56 PM »

No coastal Iberian L21 in the old Celtic areas of Iberia (the Atlantic coasts other than the Basque Country) has been uncovered to date.  So, the case for a seaborn linkeage between the Celtic populations of the Atlantic or a seaborne spread of L21 is not at all supported if Iberia was involved.  Any such links would have to be with the slightly mysterious Celtic Atlantic coast tribes of Iberia but all people from those areas to date are L21 negative in shapr contrast to the isles western coasts. 

L21 restricted to the interior of Iberia could echo in some way the classic Celti-Iberian tribes and archaeolgical culture which has a very land-locked distribution.  If this is surrounded by an L21 negative ring around the Iberian coast, this suggests to me that what Iberian L21 there is may have drifted in from France.  That is broadly in line with what archaeologists think about the creation of Celt-Iberian culture.   Maybe the scattered L21 in interior Iberia is indirect evidence that L21 was present to some degree in southern France in the early Iron Age. 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #145 on: November 14, 2009, 02:45:56 PM »

I just found another new R-L21* in the Iberian Peninsula Project: Fernándes, kit 162171. .....
I added to the L21* spreadsheet. I did a little matching on slow markers and guess what? ...  a few Fergusons from Scotland show up.   We are not not talking about close GD's so don't get too excited.   Do we know anything about Fernándes' origin with Iberia?
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rms2
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« Reply #146 on: November 14, 2009, 03:54:28 PM »


I added to the L21* spreadsheet. I did a little matching on slow markers and guess what? ...  a few Fergusons from Scotland show up.   We are not not talking about close GD's so don't get too excited.   Do we know anything about Fernándes' origin with Iberia?

Nothing except that the World Names Profiler says that spelling is Portuguese.

I checked with "Cambria Red" at the Eupedia Y-DNA Forum. He is Portuguese. He said he uses "Cambria Red" because "Cambria" is a Celtic country (Wales).

Costa (already a member for awhile) contacted me by email to say his ancestor came from the island of Terceira in the Azores. I have created a Portugal category on the Y-DNA Results page for him (to begin with) and added a placemark to the R-L21* European Continent Map for him, as well.
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« Reply #147 on: November 14, 2009, 04:04:37 PM »



. . . Costa (already a member for awhile) contacted me by email to say his ancestor came from the island of Terceira in the Azores. I have created a Portugal category on the Y-DNA Results page for him (to begin with) and added a placemark to the R-L21* European Continent Map for him, as well.


Here is some of what this web site (http://wwwlibrary.csustan.edu/bsantos/azores.html) has to say about the settlement of the Azores Islands.

Quote
The first settlers were a mixed group of people from the Portuguese provinces of Algarve and Minho. Also, Madeirans, Moorish prisoners, black slaves, French, Italians, Scots, English, and Flemings were among the early settlers. There were petty criminals, Spanish clergy, Jews, soldiers, government officials, European merchants and sugar cane growers.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2009, 04:17:16 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #148 on: November 15, 2009, 08:25:57 AM »

Going back to the origin of the Spanish surname Cantu, I received some email from a friend of mine who is expert in all things pertaining to Iberian genealogy and history and is himself of Spanish descent (and who speaks the language).

Here is some info he provided me.

http://www.misabueso.com/nombres/apellido_C.html

Italiano. Deriva de Cantuti. Tuvo casas solares en Módena, Milán, Balerna, Lugano y Bolonia. Esta familia italiana pasó a España y varios de sus miembros lo hicieron al continente americano estableciéndose en lo que hoy es el Estado de Texas, a principios del siglo XVIII. Es un apellido toponímico del lugar de este nombre, en la provincia de Como (Italia).

[translation]
Italian. Derived from Cantuti. It had homesteads in Módena, Milán, Balerna, Lugano and Bolonia. This Italian family passed to Spain and various of its members made it to the American continent establishing themselves in what is today the state of Texas, at the beginning of the XVIII century. It is a toponymic surname from the place of that name, in the province of Como (Italy).

He pointed out that if one looks at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp, he will find plenty of Cantus in Italy but few in Spain.

He refers to a book on Spanish surnames by Gutierre Tibón (he wrote several; I'm not sure which one was meant) which says that Cantu is an Italian surname originating in Como, in what the Romans called "Canturium", and was naturalized in Mexico.

So, apparently even the Spanish and Mexican genealogical authorities say Cantu is ultimately of northern Italian origin.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #149 on: November 15, 2009, 09:10:20 AM »

Of course if this is true I am very glad, to find so much Italians in the world. But we don't know anything about the origins of these Italians, who, being from Lombardy, can be Lombards or from every Central European countries.
You know that I always hope that an origin of all Europeans from Italy is true. Also R-L28 (Belgieri) and Argiedude (a very ancient L-L21+) make me still hope.
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