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DKF
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« on: February 06, 2009, 10:09:40 PM »

Hello all,

May I make a suggestion that will assist me and I think all of us in assessing a "match".  It is not helpful to list any ancestry that is not found specifically on the X.  I have used Blaine Bettinger and Jim Turner's charts to calculate the precise percentages of each ancestral group on the X.  For example if someone just says Native American that could mean anything.  A specific percentage is what will help.  If the ancestry does not appear in the 7 generation charts with a known or estimated percentage it could get confusing.  I guess that we will be seeing a lot of "Colonial American" but that affords some specifics.  The demographics of Colonial America are reasonably well known.  Perhaps giving a region would help.  Anyway, anthing that will offer some specificity.  Thanks.

David.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 02:34:40 AM by DKF » Logged

X-chromosome:  56.25% England; 12.5% Scotland; 12.5% Ireland; 12.5% Germany; 6.25% North America (Lower Mohawk, Six Nations)
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 12:16:25 AM »

May I make a suggestion that will assist me and I think all of us in assessing a "match".  It is not helpful to list any ancestry that is not found specifically on the X.

I'm rather glad that somebody said something about this.  Posting X DNA data (either SNPs or STRs) only has limited utility if we don't know the specifics of the submitter's X-chromosome ancestry.  There are links on both of the project results charts for the websites that David is referring to, where you can calculate your X DNA ancestry, and it's very important that you present only your X DNA ancestry on the project charts. 

The more specific you can be, the better, but even if you don't know much about your ancestry, please at least make sure that the ancestry you present does not include your autosomal or Y-DNA ancestry, even if you have to just list "unknown."

Unfortunately, there's no way to confirm that the ancestry info that has already been submitted is specific to the X-chromosome, but anybody who has already submitted ancestry information is urged to contact me via PM with updated information, and I will amend the results charts.

Thanks everyone.
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 01:23:24 AM »

Hello all,

May I make a suggestion that will assist me and I think all of us in assessing a "match".  It is not helpful to list any ancestry that is not found specifically on the X.  I have used Blaine Bettinger and Jim Turner's charts to calculate the precise percentages of each ancestral group on the X.  For example if someone just says Native American that could mean anything.  A specific percentage is what will help.  If the ancestry does not appear in the 7 generation charts with a known or estimated percentage it could get confusing.  I guess that we will be seeing a lot of "Colonial American" but that affords some specifics.  It mght mean Ukrainian for example, but probably not in that time period.  The demographics of Colonial America are reasonably well known.  Perhaps giving a region would help.  Anyway, anthing that will offer some specificity.  Thanks.

David.

Yes, as we get into more recent ancestry and the identification of specific nationalities along with haplotypes of STRs we will need to know as much detail about the X pedigrees as possible.  This was part of a message that was deleted the other day when this web site went down temporarily. I mentioned the differences in percentages that women will have with each of their parents:

It might be helpful for women to note the differences between their parents’ probabilities if their sequences match. See Jim Turner’s inheritance charts for X inheritance:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hulseberg/DNA/xinheritance.html

For example, when added together, both my Xs have this probability:
75% English
12.5% German
6.25% Dutch
3.125% Irish
3.125% Scottish

But when I know that my own block is the same between parents, then I can estimate the probabilities for each parent within a particular haploblock.

Mother:
62.5% English
25% German
6.25% Irish
6.25% Scottish

Father:
87.5% English
12.5% Dutch

This can be important in ruling in or out possible origins.  I suspect some of my minority matches are continental European rather than British Isles, but that is certainly debatable.  I am trying to make a case for two main tribes, one coming in from Asia and one coming in from Africa directly through Spain. Population biologists may be able to use some of this information eventually. So if there are Dutch sequences matching German that are very different from English, then we have a useful bit of information.  But if all my German and Dutch came in with the same parent, then you would not be able to make the same percentage probability comparison when the sequences match between parents.

Kathy J.





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Kathy J.
X Chromosomes: 75% English, 12.5% German, 6.25% Dutch, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish;
from Father's X: 43.75% English, 6.25% Dutch;
from Mother's X: 31.25% English, 12.5% German, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish
DKF
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 02:42:26 AM »

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It might be helpful for women to note the differences between their parents’ probabilities if their sequences match. See Jim Turner’s inheritance charts for X inheritance:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hulseberg/DNA/xinheritance.html
Very helpful post Kathy.  For males, the charts on Blaine Bettinger's site are also very useful:

http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2009/01/12/more-x-chromosome-charts/

I would like to encourage folks who post here to put their X percentages in their signature line.  In other forums I put Y, mtDNA etc. but here that would only be a distraction.  The X, only the X, is where it is at for our purposes here.  It also helps each of us to get to know our fellow posters "X sides" :-)

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X-chromosome:  56.25% England; 12.5% Scotland; 12.5% Ireland; 12.5% Germany; 6.25% North America (Lower Mohawk, Six Nations)
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 08:13:42 AM »


Good idea! Let me see if I can figure it out..
Kathleen
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Kathlingram

X chromosome ancestry % 62.50 Irish,Colonial Admixture of Eng/Irish/Welsh 37.50%.Father 25% Irish,25 % Colonial admix.Mother 37.50% Irish 12.50% Colonial Admix
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 08:36:02 AM »


Good idea! Let me see if I can figure it out..
Kathleen
Excellent Kathleen!  Can see the work reflected in your signature. 

I know it is more complicated for females to do this, goodness knows but this is another example of where males get off lightly, but it is so important to document who is and who is not represented on the X. 

With all of the work I have done over the years, only recently did I realize that my daughter is genetically closer to me than my sons.  The Y has 73 or so genes all concerned with housekeeping or reproductive functions whereas the X has 1093 genes including some completely essential (as seen most dramatically when the copy received my the male has an irregularity).  My daughter's daughter is genetically closer to me than my other grandaughters since she wll have half of my X.  She is half Korean so my 13% block of "East Asian" (actually NA) will mean that she may have more than 50% EA on tests of the X - assuming that she got the block on the q arm from about 80 to 101 Mb from me.  Quite an eye opener.

David.

David.
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X-chromosome:  56.25% England; 12.5% Scotland; 12.5% Ireland; 12.5% Germany; 6.25% North America (Lower Mohawk, Six Nations)
kathlingram
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 09:35:24 AM »


David
Well it was an interesting exercise and I likely have it a bit muddled.
I was astonished to realize that not only do I not know who my Dad's father is, but I do not know a whole heck of a lot about his mother's father's mother's family.
I know 2 names for sure: Edenfield which is English, Worters which is anyone's guess either English or German,and there are a few Colonial Delaware Swedes and Finn most likely as I know a few of those names too but then have a records gap around the Revolutionary period.
That is maybe good and bad..Caesar Rodney was an Edenfield close relative but one of the Edenfields was known as the "Pirate of Bombay Hook" for selling beef and rum to the Brits while he rowed around the creeks.
Since 2 of my 3 Revolutionary ancestors are from this line I thought I had it down but it is lost in the mists of Early Colonial Delaware..
Kathleen
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Kathlingram

X chromosome ancestry % 62.50 Irish,Colonial Admixture of Eng/Irish/Welsh 37.50%.Father 25% Irish,25 % Colonial admix.Mother 37.50% Irish 12.50% Colonial Admix
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 11:11:28 AM »

After testing 5 of 7 siblings, I was able to deduce a paternal X haplotype, including the linked markers, that was posted on DNAF under username Pekarsky-Zacun. That patenal haplotype is 100% Ukrainian Ashkenazi (whatever that is). It's mate, the maternal diplotype, including both versions of the linked markers, was posted on DNAF under username Dorothee. The maternal diplotype is mixed-race, Euro-Native American. I suppose it qualifies as 'Colonial' although the admixture seems rather recent on available evidence, but available evidence does not include any paper!

The estimation of percentages is a matter of controversy. However, the estimation of maternal percentages should be, nominally, double my 'scores' or 62% NA according to AbDNA and 50% according to DNAT. That range or an average could be included with the posted results.

In any event, the family results posted on the X STR chart of this site, do not break-out the two parental lines. And that might be something to consider for those testers who have done the family sampling necessary.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 11:16:06 AM by tomcat » Logged

Paternal X: 100% Ukrainian Ashkenazi. Maternal X: 50% Upper Midwest Native American, 50% European.
kathlingram
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 11:40:15 AM »


Yes I think family results could be useful to post here also. I have tentatively ID'd most of Dad's and all his haploblock numbers..I would do the rest of sisters tests if it was useful..and maybe continue with my son's testing..

and it still would be cheaper than 23and Me although I DO HOPE to do that.
I asked Hubby to get it for my birthday present..much wailing and gnashing of teeth ( he is Scottish) but it could very well happen in the summer.. or eventually I will just do it anyway..
;)

I will keep on it..
Kath
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Kathlingram

X chromosome ancestry % 62.50 Irish,Colonial Admixture of Eng/Irish/Welsh 37.50%.Father 25% Irish,25 % Colonial admix.Mother 37.50% Irish 12.50% Colonial Admix
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 12:40:18 PM »

In any event, the family results posted on the X STR chart of this site, do not break-out the two parental lines. And that might be something to consider for those testers who have done the family sampling necessary.

Yeah, I agree that this information could be helpful.  The problem is that the vast majority of people who have done X-STR testing either have not tested additional family members, or wouldn't know what to do with the information if they had (as far as calculating revised percentages or breaking out ancestry between different X lineages), and I am wondering if adding such an additional level of complexity to the results chart would only serve to confuse people.  We definitely want to be as user-friendly as possible and encourage people to post their ancestry, not scare them aware with the thought, "this is too complicated for me to deal with."

I'm open to hearing people's opinions about that matter, and it is definitely on my list of things to consider.  I appreciate your bringing it up, Tomcat.

You're sure right that estimating X-lineage ancestry percentages potentially provides some incorrect information, Tomcat... when I say in my signature that my estimated X ancestry is 50% French Canadian / 50% Swedish, those numbers could be way off due to the random aspects of recombination.  I could be more like 90% Swedish and 10% French (or vice versa, or anywhere in between), but there's no way for me to pin that down any better given the current state of knowledge of X DNA population origins, so all we can do is post the best statistical estimate that we can.  It's also a lot easier (though still not "easy") to estimate the actual percentages when your ancestors are from widely-separated ethnic groups (e.g., if you were 50% East Asian and 50% African) than it is if you simply have mixed European ancestry (like I do).

Sean
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 06:33:02 PM »

Quote
It might be helpful for women to note the differences between their parents’ probabilities if their sequences match. See Jim Turner’s inheritance charts for X inheritance:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hulseberg/DNA/xinheritance.html
Very helpful post Kathy.  For males, the charts on Blaine Bettinger's site are also very useful:

http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2009/01/12/more-x-chromosome-charts/

I would like to encourage folks who post here to put their X percentages in their signature line.  In other forums I put Y, mtDNA etc. but here that would only be a distraction.  The X, only the X, is where it is at for our purposes here.  It also helps each of us to get to know our fellow posters "X sides" :-)


Very good suggestion. I see that women are using the 50% rule; that is 50% of your X genetic makeup came from each parent. I also calculated that if you divide each number by 0.78125, you should come up with a whole number in most cases. For example, 31.25 divided  by 0.78125 equals 40.
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Kathy J.
X Chromosomes: 75% English, 12.5% German, 6.25% Dutch, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish;
from Father's X: 43.75% English, 6.25% Dutch;
from Mother's X: 31.25% English, 12.5% German, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2009, 05:56:43 PM »

Will there every be an genetic geneology or genetic ancestry test that actually could work 100% with or without geneology?
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2009, 01:19:23 PM »

Hi,
Can I ask, as a female who is 50% English and 50% "Eastern European/Russian" according to DeCodeMe, would it be possible to "see" this if I work out my X percentages as most people on here have done? I guess it's independent on data already in your database, but could I distinguish between Western and Eastern Europe?
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2009, 11:40:08 AM »

Hi,
Can I ask, as a female who is 50% English and 50% "Eastern European/Russian" according to DeCodeMe, would it be possible to "see" this if I work out my X percentages as most people on here have done? I guess it's independent on data already in your database, but could I distinguish between Western and Eastern Europe?

No, we were hoping some of our blocks could distinguish between East and Western Europe, but everytime we think we have an association, the blocks fall apart when more people are tested.

Right now you have to be satisfied just learning about some deep, very deep ancestry. I don’t want people to spend a lot of money on their genome unless they just want to be part of an expedition into the unknown.  It is kind of like a treasure hunt and most of us are just mad scientists, on the fringe.

Some blocks, like the 66 million block have interesting founders in my opinion.  Most people will be plain vanilla and match billions of Asians and our only hope is to someday find some interesting regional (geographical ) STRs.  Others have the founder that matches the Sub-Saharan African HapMap population.  I just found out that one of my brothers may have inherited my same x haploblock from my mother and fortunately it has one of the uncommon crossovers. Yes! He matches the Finn, Nevelainen, so that could mean that my father matched the anonymous German-Brit-Irish number 41 and the Italian/Ashkenazi Warwick because they have rather uncommon haplotypes as well.  You might want to start by translating your deCodeme from rs1567524 - rs2497928 (our block 66,228,526 -66,564,941 that I am discussing here) but I don’t have software to do this efficiently.                         

Just like this documentary, “RACE, the Power of an Illusion” described here,

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_General/000_00-Home.htm

we may also find that our attempt to categorize these blocks into ethnic groups will fail because  humans have been  mixing way too much over the last few millennia. The fact that one of my uncommon X blocks matches a Finn and the other seems to match an Italian/Ashkenazi means these blocks, no matter how uncommon,  may be very ancient.  Heaven knows where these founders have been wandering over the past few thousand years. You really have to be interested in ancient migration paths to want to be a part of this study.

Kathy

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Kathy J.
X Chromosomes: 75% English, 12.5% German, 6.25% Dutch, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish;
from Father's X: 43.75% English, 6.25% Dutch;
from Mother's X: 31.25% English, 12.5% German, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish
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« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2009, 01:39:31 PM »

Hi,
Finding out anything would be good for me, I'd just like to have a go getting percentages like some of you have on your signatures to see how they compare!
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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2009, 06:01:52 PM »

Hi,
Finding out anything would be good for me, I'd just like to have a go getting percentages like some of you have on your signatures to see how they compare!


Do you want us to help you calculate the probability percentages?  We did not get those from our X chromosome at all. Anyone can calculate the probability of how much of the X came from a certain population group in your pedigree. But it is really just a rough guess. For example, do you know where your mother's mother, your mother's father and your father's mother came from? You cannot use your father's father's ethnicity.  We are just making general predictions.

If none of your  grandparent's were from a distinct location, then you have to go back in time until you can't go any further.  For example, if your mother's father is Croatian, but your mother's mother is Italian, then you need to go back as far as you can until the birth place or ethnicity is not known. But don't count two male lines in a row because no male passes on an X to an offspring.  If you know all your great great grandparents' residences of birth, let us know and we can calculate this for you.  Of course we are all related to each other so this may be an exercise in futility.  If we carry out the percentages to a fraction, it is only to see if we calculated the math correctly based on probability statistics. Your X won't have these fractions in reality.

It would be more correct to give the name of the ancestor, rather than the ethnicity but we are trying to keep it simple just to see if there are any regional correlations and to see if we can identify the likely location of a founder. Let us know the ethnicity of each of your ancestors as far back as you can go and we can figure out who could have contributed to your X.

Kathy
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Kathy J.
X Chromosomes: 75% English, 12.5% German, 6.25% Dutch, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish;
from Father's X: 43.75% English, 6.25% Dutch;
from Mother's X: 31.25% English, 12.5% German, 3.125% Irish, 3.125% Scottish
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2009, 07:44:02 PM »

Hi,
Finding out anything would be good for me, I'd just like to have a go getting percentages like some of you have on your signatures to see how they compare!


If you prefer to take a stab at figuring out those percentages yourself, this website might be of help:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hulseberg/DNA/xinheritance.html

For males, here's an alternate chart:

http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2009/01/12/more-x-chromosome-charts/
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