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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #150 on: December 02, 2009, 10:20:54 PM »

Yes that is another upset apple cart as well, but I've just never thought it was a reasonable alternative enough to have a large following.  I think there is more R-L21* in Sweden than we know, let alone Norway.  Who knows, maybe I'm old Swede? 
Maybe you're Korean.
Maybe.  Sorry to take the thread off track a bit, but I actually do have a Swede has one of my five or six closest GD's at 67.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #151 on: December 02, 2009, 11:09:11 PM »

So which apple cart are you in? LOL
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #152 on: December 03, 2009, 10:04:56 AM »

So which apple cart are you in? LOL
Hopefully I'm not in any emotional apple cart.  Bear in mind that originally I thought I was a Cro-Magnon man (thanks to Dr. Wells) and told my family that.  I learned my lesson that deep ancestry-cultural relationships are speculative, although I'm optimistic that we can eliminate alternatives and hone in on reality as we go.

As far as my opinion of how R-L21* got to Norway, Sweden and Finland; please read posts from RMS (#119) and Alan (#122) about the Bell Beaker expansions. 

I think it is a bit sketchy, but I think there is a reason for that.  My reasoning on the sketchiness is not researched, just my thoughts related to the climate,  geography and accessibility. I think that the Scandinavian Peninsula might  be considered a "frontier" during much of the Copper and early Bronze Ages.  The population might have been more sparse and the Bell Beaker early explorers and settlers did not gain a full political control and they weren't unified anyway.  ... it was the "Wild West" so to speak.   We shouldn't expect to see large Bell Beaker settlements with lots of goods imported from Beaker "civilization" (if you could call it that) back in the core of the mainland.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #153 on: December 03, 2009, 11:29:13 AM »

I think we all want to be Vikings becuase they're Nordic. And that means they are superior. Oh wait, only U106 and U152 are Nordic... and superior.

People are funny.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


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rms2
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« Reply #154 on: December 12, 2009, 10:13:36 AM »

Announcing a new R-L21* Finn (with a Swedish-looking ancestral surname): Sundberg, kit 161355 (no Ysearch entry yet), whose ancestor came from Ahlainen on the Gulf of Bothnia.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Finland/default.aspx?section=yresults

He hasn't joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet, but I am hoping to recruit him.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #155 on: December 12, 2009, 10:34:26 AM »

It seems L21 is making its way around the Baltic, lol. I assume this is the lost tribe of Brythonic-speaking peoples mentioned by Faucks? I can't believe that.
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rms2
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« Reply #156 on: December 12, 2009, 11:19:40 AM »

It seems L21 is making its way around the Baltic, lol. I assume this is the lost tribe of Brythonic-speaking peoples mentioned by Faucks? I can't believe that.

I think he might have been referring to our Ashkenazi guys without realizing their likely origin farther west in Eastern Europe.

I think our Finnish guys (with the exception of Livio, who is in the Ashkenazi Baltic Cluster) are all descendants of Swedes who moved east. At least it looks that way judging from their ancestral surnames.
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rms2
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« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2009, 12:31:31 PM »

Announcing a new R-L21* Finn (with a Swedish-looking ancestral surname): Sundberg, kit 161355 (no Ysearch entry yet), whose ancestor came from Ahlainen on the Gulf of Bothnia.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Finland/default.aspx?section=yresults

He hasn't joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet, but I am hoping to recruit him.

Salokanta (whose ancestor was Sundberg above) has joined the project. :-)
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Jdean
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« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2009, 03:24:30 PM »

Announcing a new R-L21* Finn (with a Swedish-looking ancestral surname): Sundberg, kit 161355 (no Ysearch entry yet), whose ancestor came from Ahlainen on the Gulf of Bothnia.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Finland/default.aspx?section=yresults

He hasn't joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet, but I am hoping to recruit him.

Salokanta (whose ancestor was Sundberg above) has joined the project. :-)

Is it my imagination or are you finding it a little easer to persuade people who descend from the continent to join the project now?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 03:25:10 PM by Jdean » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2009, 03:41:13 PM »


Is it my imagination or are you finding it a little easer to persuade people who descend from the continent to join the project now?

I hadn't noticed that, but I think you're right. I've been sending them a link to the project web site. Perhaps now that they can see a fairly substantial number of continental entries they are more willing to participate.

Alan mentioned a "tipping point" awhile back with regard to continental results and especially French results that when reached would lead to more folks from the Continent wanting to find out if they are L21+ or not and ordering the Deep Clade-R test.

Maybe we're getting close to that point now. I certainly hope so.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2009, 05:40:58 PM »


Is it my imagination or are you finding it a little easer to persuade people who descend from the continent to join the project now?

I hadn't noticed that, but I think you're right. I've been sending them a link to the project web site. Perhaps now that they can see a fairly substantial number of continental entries they are more willing to participate.

Alan mentioned a "tipping point" awhile back with regard to continental results and especially French results that when reached would lead to more folks from the Continent wanting to find out if they are L21+ or not and ordering the Deep Clade-R test.

Maybe we're getting close to that point now. I certainly hope so.

Are you using your stats on proportion of L21+ of the French population?  I know they are rough, but they are as good as anybody has and I think it is safe to say "as many as X% of all French ancestry men could be L21+".
 
Perhaps we need to create an informational web site and call it "French/Gaulish Ancestry Y DNA" or "French and German Rhineland Y DNA" or write an article titled "R-L21+ - The Marker of the Ancient Gaul of Europe".  I'm not saying there isn't hype in those statements, but we do need some attention getting devices.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #161 on: December 13, 2009, 08:35:05 PM »


Is it my imagination or are you finding it a little easer to persuade people who descend from the continent to join the project now?

I hadn't noticed that, but I think you're right. I've been sending them a link to the project web site. Perhaps now that they can see a fairly substantial number of continental entries they are more willing to participate.

Alan mentioned a "tipping point" awhile back with regard to continental results and especially French results that when reached would lead to more folks from the Continent wanting to find out if they are L21+ or not and ordering the Deep Clade-R test.

Maybe we're getting close to that point now. I certainly hope so.

Are you using your stats on proportion of L21+ of the French population?  I know they are rough, but they are as good as anybody has and I think it is safe to say "as many as X% of all French ancestry men could be L21+".
 
Perhaps we need to create an informational web site and call it "French/Gaulish Ancestry Y DNA" or "French and German Rhineland Y DNA" or write an article titled "R-L21+ - The Marker of the Ancient Gaul of Europe".  I'm not saying there isn't hype in those statements, but we do need some attention getting devices.

Characterizing L21 as Gaulish won't attract much interest from Scandinavians, which I think would be unfortunate.
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rms2
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« Reply #162 on: December 14, 2009, 04:12:15 PM »


Are you using your stats on proportion of L21+ of the French population?  I know they are rough, but they are as good as anybody has and I think it is safe to say "as many as X% of all French ancestry men could be L21+".
 
Perhaps we need to create an informational web site and call it "French/Gaulish Ancestry Y DNA" or "French and German Rhineland Y DNA" or write an article titled "R-L21+ - The Marker of the Ancient Gaul of Europe".  I'm not saying there isn't hype in those statements, but we do need some attention getting devices.


It would be fairly easy, I guess, to extrapolate from those stats to an estimate of the percentage of L21 in France. I just haven't done it yet.

I do think that, in what is now France, L21 was probably well represented among the ancient Gauls, and I don't fail to mention that when I am discussing it with someone of French descent who might be interested in testing.

Honestly, I haven't figured out what L21 is in Scandinavia, although I am heartened by that little article I posted here a couple of times about Beaker Folk settlements in SW Norway.

I wish we had an idea, from a study or something with a sizeable sample, of the real percentage of L21 in Norway and elsewhere in Scandinavia.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 04:14:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #163 on: December 14, 2009, 04:31:35 PM »


Are you using your stats on proportion of L21+ of the French population?  I know they are rough, but they are as good as anybody has and I think it is safe to say "as many as X% of all French ancestry men could be L21+".
 
Perhaps we need to create an informational web site and call it "French/Gaulish Ancestry Y DNA" or "French and German Rhineland Y DNA" or write an article titled "R-L21+ - The Marker of the Ancient Gaul of Europe".  I'm not saying there isn't hype in those statements, but we do need some attention getting devices.


It would be fairly easy, I guess, to extrapolate from those stats to an estimate of the percentage of L21 in France. I just haven't done it yet.

I do think that, in what is now France, L21 was probably well represented among the ancient Gauls, and I don't fail to mention that when I am discussing it with someone of French descent who might be interested in testing.

Honestly, I haven't figured out what L21 is in Scandinavia, although I am heartened by that little article I posted here a couple of times about Beaker Folk settlements in SW Norway.

I wish we had an idea, from a study or something with a sizeable sample, of the real percentage of L21 in Norway and elsewhere in Scandinavia.
I have long thought we won't know the history of R1b in Europe until we know how it is distributed in Scandinavia.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #164 on: December 14, 2009, 05:30:35 PM »

Someone on another forum mentioned this map on Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml
Look at the last map, that showing proposed migration routes for R1b. It shows a considerable change in thinking on that site since a year or so ago. While it shows L21 only going westward from central Europe, (seems unlikely to me), it does show an early split of P312/S116, with an entry into Scandinavia 3000ybp.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #165 on: December 14, 2009, 08:32:41 PM »

Someone on another forum mentioned this map on Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml
Look at the last map, that showing proposed migration routes for R1b. It shows a considerable change in thinking on that site since a year or so ago. While it shows L21 only going westward from central Europe, (seems unlikely to me), it does show an early split of P312/S116, with an entry into Scandinavia 3000ybp.
It looks like they are saying that all R1b1 in Europe, including Scandinavian, came up the Danube River Valley before spreading.  Could be.

Another alternative may be what Jean M posts on her site - the gray map showing David Anthony's movement of Yamnaya out of the Black Sea area. 
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml
He proposes that the Germanic split of IE went north around Carpathian Mountains and into Poland and to the Baltic.  Later waves of IE included the Balto-Slavic splits.
He proposes that the Italo-Celtic split was the sole IE movement up the Danube.

If Anthony is correct, a big question is where did R-U106 originate?  My understanding from M Maddi is that it is oldest in Poland and the north side of the Carpathians.  Perhaps U106 took that northern route and mixed in with some Old Europeans (Neolithic peoples) before heading further west and north.
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OConnor
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« Reply #166 on: December 15, 2009, 01:16:29 PM »

I was wondering if one of these incursions into the Po Valley coincided with incursions north of the Alps. Would one of these times in history match up with L21 introduction.

As the 5th century BC dawned, a Celtic horde swarmed through the easy passes of the Western Alps and conquered most of the Po Valley, apart Veneto which had its inhabitants, the Venetics likely of a distinct stock and in time already influenced by both Etruscans and Greeks.

The Po Valley for a time hosted the capital of the Western Roman Empire, in Mediolanum from 286 to 403, and then in Ravenna till the end. It was attacked in the 3rd century by Germanic tribes bursting out from the Alps and sacked two centuries later by Attila the Hun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley#Ancient_history
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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OConnor
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« Reply #167 on: March 20, 2010, 12:45:43 AM »

Perhaps these were Irish Monks?
I wonder what haplo group Celtic Y-DNA is?


"Although the DNA analysis reveals the inhabitants had Celtic blood in their veins, Arneborg said there was no question that the settlers were Nordic."
http://www.cphpost.dk/news/scitech/92-technology/48554-greenland-vikings-had-celtic-blood.html
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 12:47:33 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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bart otoole
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« Reply #168 on: March 20, 2010, 02:36:14 AM »

One of the newer Swedes 61096 is null 425 and fits in the Clan Collas group.  His ancestor is listed as Swedish going back to 1650.

He is a GD of 4 from some of the Collas Carrolls.

I also found a potential L21 null 425 Swede who lists Swedish ancestry to 1750 (or so).  PMBA2 is the ySearch ID.  Also in the Erickson project on WorldFamilies.net.  That one is a GD of 11 from 61096.

As someone who tracks L21 null 425's, I'm always excited to find someone outside the Irish/English group.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #169 on: March 20, 2010, 02:25:23 PM »

One of the newer Swedes 61096 is null 425 and fits in the Clan Collas group.  His ancestor is listed as Swedish going back to 1650.

He is a GD of 4 from some of the Collas Carrolls.

I also found a potential L21 null 425 Swede who lists Swedish ancestry to 1750 (or so).  PMBA2 is the ySearch ID.  Also in the Erickson project on WorldFamilies.net.  That one is a GD of 11 from 61096.

As someone who tracks L21 null 425's, I'm always excited to find someone outside the Irish/English group.
Perhaps they shipped out of Scotland in the 15th century on the Aberdeen-Stockholm steamship line.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #170 on: March 27, 2010, 01:56:05 AM »

I note a new Scandinavian L21 on the project map, with ancestry going back to the mid 17th century in west central Sweden, a location far from the coast.
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