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GoldenHind
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« Reply #125 on: November 28, 2009, 03:47:55 PM »

I just quickly added up the number of men who have tested to at least 12 markers and who identified someplace in the British Isles as their y-dna ancestral home. The figure I got was 50,504. That is as of today.

The total number of Norwegians tested to at least 12 markers is 1,098.

Those figures come from the Ancestral Origins page of one of the members of the R-L21 Plus Project.

I'll let you all chew on those numbers.
Can you get the same numbers for Denmark? It would make an interesting comparison with Norway.
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vtilroe
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« Reply #126 on: November 28, 2009, 03:57:38 PM »

I just quickly added up the number of men who have tested to at least 12 markers and who identified someplace in the British Isles as their y-dna ancestral home. The figure I got was 50,504. That is as of today.

The total number of Norwegians tested to at least 12 markers is 1,098.

Those figures come from the Ancestral Origins page of one of the members of the R-L21 Plus Project.

I'll let you all chew on those numbers.
Can you get the same numbers for Denmark? It would make an interesting comparison with Norway.

The total number of Danish tested is 696.

RMS2 neglected to add in 575 from Northern Ireland, which brings up the Isles total to 51,079.
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« Reply #127 on: November 28, 2009, 04:36:44 PM »

I havent read him for a while but it seemed that Hubert was getting at a link with the Beaker culture and now we know more about that the culture terms like Lower or Middle Rhine for the beaker groups seem more appropriate than NW Germany.  Indeed, the beaker groups that touched on Germany seem to be riverine and NW Germany as its understood today is low on beaker finds according to maps of the culture (not the dreadful map that dominates on the internet).  These show that on the Lower Rhine Beakers were predominanty a Low Countries thing.  

The only part of Germany that the Lower Rhine goes through is North Rhine Westphalia and that area would not conventionally be what people would understand as NW Germany.  Lower Saxony would be the most southern and westerly part of NW Germany.  I think what Hubert was driving at was beakers on the Lower Rhine, a little of which falls into north Rhenish Germany but most of which we now know fall into the Low Countries.  I personally avoid Huberts geographical term because it slightly undermines what I think is otherwise a laudibly early (perhaps the earliest-not sure) linking of the Beaker phenomenon with the Celts or their ancestors, something that others have revived intermittenly since.  
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #128 on: November 28, 2009, 04:56:45 PM »

Interesting. There are only 696 Danes in the database, yet I still wonder how many of that number have deep clade tested.
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« Reply #129 on: November 28, 2009, 07:23:18 PM »

If there are close matches between Scots and Norwegians that could be indirect  evidence that some L21 came to Scotland from Norway with the Vikings..  Not a lot but some.  However, a lot will depend on which Scots are linked to which Noregians. The vikings only really settled the north (north of the Great Glen) and the west coast (and islands).  So, the matches should be with Scots rom those areas if they came with the Vikings.  If the matches are between Norway and the east coast then the Viking ideas has problems.  ....
Is there any connection of Vikings with Wales?  I know Vikings (Ostermen) were in Wexford across the Irish Sea, but I haven't read of Viking influence in Wales.

I ask because one of my closest matches at 67 markers (and he is confirmed L21*) is a Swede.  My little group includes a couple of Welsh people, myself (SE Irish), and a Swede (Baltic side no less).  Due to our geographies, I don't see anyway that our MRCA is before post 1200 AD even though some TMRCA calculations would say different. 1170 AD is when my family was supposed to have entered Ireland from Wales.

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« Reply #130 on: November 28, 2009, 07:32:36 PM »

If there are close matches between Scots and Norwegians that could be indirect  evidence that some L21 came to Scotland from Norway with the Vikings..  Not a lot but some.  However, a lot will depend on which Scots are linked to which Noregians. The vikings only really settled the north (north of the Great Glen) and the west coast (and islands).  So, the matches should be with Scots rom those areas if they came with the Vikings.  If the matches are between Norway and the east coast then the Viking ideas has problems.  ....
Is there any connection of Vikings with Wales?  I know Vikings (Ostermen) were in Wexford across the Irish Sea, but I haven't read of Viking influence in Wales.

I ask because I because one of my closest matches at 67 markers (and he is confirmed L21*) is a Swede.  My little group includes a couple of Welsh people, myself (SE Irish), and a Swede (Baltic side no less).  Due to our geographies, I don't see anyway that our MRCA is before post 1200 AD even though some TMRCA calculations would say different. 1170 AD is when my family was supposed to have entered Ireland from Wales.


The Vikings certainly did a lot of raiding in Wales, and I think there are indications of settlements there (perhaps on Angelsey?), but I would have to check to be certain.
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Jdean
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« Reply #131 on: November 28, 2009, 07:54:45 PM »

If there are close matches between Scots and Norwegians that could be indirect  evidence that some L21 came to Scotland from Norway with the Vikings..  Not a lot but some.  However, a lot will depend on which Scots are linked to which Noregians. The vikings only really settled the north (north of the Great Glen) and the west coast (and islands).  So, the matches should be with Scots rom those areas if they came with the Vikings.  If the matches are between Norway and the east coast then the Viking ideas has problems.  ....
Is there any connection of Vikings with Wales?  I know Vikings (Ostermen) were in Wexford across the Irish Sea, but I haven't read of Viking influence in Wales.

I ask because I because one of my closest matches at 67 markers (and he is confirmed L21*) is a Swede.  My little group includes a couple of Welsh people, myself (SE Irish), and a Swede (Baltic side no less).  Due to our geographies, I don't see anyway that our MRCA is before post 1200 AD even though some TMRCA calculations would say different. 1170 AD is when my family was supposed to have entered Ireland from Wales.


The Vikings certainly did a lot of raiding in Wales, and I think there are indications of settlements there (perhaps on Angelsey?), but I would have to check to be certain.

Swansea is reputed to have obtained it name from Swain Sea, supposedly because of the number of Vikings that settled there, also the area around Haverfordwest is often referred to as Little England, don't know if that's germane.
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« Reply #132 on: November 28, 2009, 08:54:02 PM »

If there are close matches between Scots and Norwegians that could be indirect  evidence that some L21 came to Scotland from Norway with the Vikings..  Not a lot but some.  However, a lot will depend on which Scots are linked to which Noregians. The vikings only really settled the north (north of the Great Glen) and the west coast (and islands).  So, the matches should be with Scots rom those areas if they came with the Vikings.  If the matches are between Norway and the east coast then the Viking ideas has problems.  ....
Is there any connection of Vikings with Wales?  I know Vikings (Ostermen) were in Wexford across the Irish Sea, but I haven't read of Viking influence in Wales.

I ask because I because one of my closest matches at 67 markers (and he is confirmed L21*) is a Swede.  My little group includes a couple of Welsh people, myself (SE Irish), and a Swede (Baltic side no less).  Due to our geographies, I don't see anyway that our MRCA is before post 1200 AD even though some TMRCA calculations would say different. 1170 AD is when my family was supposed to have entered Ireland from Wales.
The Vikings certainly did a lot of raiding in Wales, and I think there are indications of settlements there (perhaps on Angelsey?), but I would have to check to be certain.
The MDKA's of my closest Wales cluster folks both happen to be about 20 KM from each other, on the south edge of Brecon Beacons.  My folklore is that our maternal ancestor, the "Mother of the Walsh's", also known as the "Queen Bee of the Cambro-Norman Swarm", was born nearby there as well.  It is a bit in-land.

My 2nd cousin, the real genealogist, thinks we are of Romano-Britain heritage - a Guy de Sancto Wallerico.  I don't know.  I wonder if part of the diaspora during the Anglo-Saxon invasions ended up in Sweden?   The other alternative I can think of is a Scandinavian clan accompanying Rollo in Normandy ends up with the Normans invading England and Wales and on to Ireland.  Of course a twist on both of those could be a Romano-Briton disapora to Brittany, returning to Britain and Wales with the Normans.

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« Reply #133 on: November 28, 2009, 10:04:33 PM »

.... The only part of Germany that the Lower Rhine goes through is North Rhine Westphalia and that area would not conventionally be what people would understand as NW Germany.  Lower Saxony would be the most southern and westerly part of NW Germany.  I think what Hubert was driving at was beakers on the Lower Rhine, a little of which falls into north Rhenish Germany but most of which we now know fall into the Low Countries.  ....
Henri Hubert wrote that the farm land layout found in ancient Ireland is found in only one other place - the North Rhine Westphalia area.
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« Reply #134 on: November 29, 2009, 08:39:06 AM »

The total number of Danish tested is 696.

RMS2 neglected to add in 575 from Northern Ireland, which brings up the Isles total to 51,079
.

You're right. I was looking on a member's Ancestral Origins page and did not see a figure for Northern Ireland. It did not cross my mind to check for one.

Thanks. That helps illustrate what I and a few others have been talking about all along.

By the way, it seems those figures change pretty quickly. This morning the figure for England is up to 19,666 and that for Northern Ireland is 576. Ireland has gone up by two to 11,357.

So, I guess we will need to update our figures soon.

The point is that those who identify themselves as having y-dna lines that originate in the British Isles far outnumber all others, and that must be kept in mind.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 09:04:36 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #135 on: November 29, 2009, 09:35:21 AM »

Henri Hubert wrote that the farm land layout found in ancient Ireland is found in only one other place - the North Rhine Westphalia area.
[/quote]

The thing is Hubert was probably unaware that the well known pretty patchwork of little irregular fields type of field system charachteristic of Ireland over the last 200 years can be shown by map evidence to be a relatively modern one.  They are simply the consequence of large fields being radically subdivided again and again from the late 18th century to the mid 19th century.  Basically there was an incredible population explosion that only ended with the famine.  The Ireland of all the little irregular hedged or stone walled fields is not present on earlier maps which instead show that the fields were much much larger.

Indeed, even the latter only really deals with the last few centuries on the better land and probably does not relate to any earlier than 1600AD in many areas. There is evidence that a large chunk of the Irish used a rundale system (a version of the unenclosed strip or infield-outfield system) where land ownership was held by extended families(cousins etc) and divided among them into open unenclosed strips and field boudanries other than one that seperated the large infield strip area from the outfield may have been relatively rare.  That system lasted very late in the Gaelic areas of western Ireland (only dying out by the 19th century) but may have been the the main sysem across Ireland before that right back to early historic times.  I would really have to re-read Hubert but if I recall right he was comparing the patchword system fo little fields of relatively modern times. If he was he was he was making assumptions that have led him astray.

Hubert was a very clever guy and in some ways ahead of his time but he does have the huge disadvantage of having written long before most of the archaeological finds, data, survey and research were in place.  I think his historical and linguistic observations are still a great source as they have been a lot less badly effected by the passing of time but archaeological knowledge has so increased since his time that he was working in the dark.  Radiocarbon was not even available then for example so while some rough dating could be worked out by imports from the classical world, dating before the Iron Age was was only a relative one based on artefact statigaphy. Real chronology was impossible and guesswork and the experts got it badly wrong in fact, rendering most pre-1960s archaeological books, especially those dealing with the pre-Iron Age period, either useless or in the 'handle with care' category where the raw data is interesting but one must be aware that much of the conclusions may be wrong.  So guys like Hubert  were working in the dark pre-600BC.  
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 09:41:04 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
authun
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« Reply #136 on: November 29, 2009, 10:33:11 AM »

Henri Hubert wrote that the farm land layout found in ancient Ireland is found in only one other place - the North Rhine Westphalia area.

What field system is he writing about? If he refers to the Celtic field system, those are found thoughtout northern Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark and southern Sweden as well as Britain and Ireland. They are not in particular Celtic, that's just the term given by Crawford.

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OConnor
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« Reply #137 on: November 29, 2009, 03:26:30 PM »

I visited Ceide Fields in Ireland last May.
(Maybe farming spread from Ireland with R-L21? ftp://:))

The Céide Fields are the oldest known field systems in the world, over five and a half millennia old. It is a unique Neolithic landscape of world importance, which has changed our perception of our Stone Age ancestors. The remains of stone field walls, houses and megalithic tombs are preserved beneath a blanket of peat over several square miles.


http://www.museumsofmayo.com/ceide.htm
(The pyramid shaped building is the Visitors centre)

Another read
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/history/prehist1.html
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 03:31:03 PM by OConnor » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #138 on: November 29, 2009, 04:29:58 PM »

Interesting. There are only 696 Danes in the database, yet I still wonder how many of that number have deep clade tested.
These figures may give some indication. R1b from Denmark is estimated to be roughly half of the male population. Those who have had deep clade tseting (from the various projects) number as follows:
U106-  7
U152-  2
P312*- 2
L21-     1
U106-P312-  1*
(*I didn't check the ht35 project, but am aware of one member from Denmark, so I threw him him).
I am also aware of another awaiting results- so far he has tested U106-.
Total= 13. Assuming the R1a and I HGs have a similar rate (I haven't checked any of their projects), and I doubt they do as deep clade testing is more popular amoingst R1b, one could estimate possibly 25 deep clade tests from Denmark. Hardly a number which would justify betting the ranch.
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authun
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« Reply #139 on: November 29, 2009, 04:38:21 PM »

The Céide Fields are the oldest known field systems in the world, over five and a half millennia old. It is a unique Neolithic landscape of world importance, which has changed our perception of our Stone Age ancestors. The remains of stone field walls, houses and megalithic tombs are preserved beneath a blanket of peat over several square miles.

That's lost a little in various web pages, it is more accurate to say that they belong to the oldest field systems. They exist on Shetland, Arran and the Isle of Man too.

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rms2
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« Reply #140 on: November 29, 2009, 05:02:38 PM »

Interesting. There are only 696 Danes in the database, yet I still wonder how many of that number have deep clade tested.
These figures may give some indication. R1b from Denmark is estimated to be roughly half of the male population. Those who have had deep clade tseting (from the various projects) number as follows:
U106-  7
U152-  2
P312*- 2
L21-     1
U106-P312-  1*
(*I didn't check the ht35 project, but am aware of one member from Denmark, so I threw him him).
I am also aware of another awaiting results- so far he has tested U106-.
Total= 13. Assuming the R1a and I HGs have a similar rate (I haven't checked any of their projects), and I doubt they do as deep clade testing is more popular amoingst R1b, one could estimate possibly 25 deep clade tests from Denmark. Hardly a number which would justify betting the ranch.

There are at least 3 (perhaps 4) Danes who have tested L21+. Only one shows up in the R-L21 Plus Project, but the other two or three appear on the Haplotree/My Matches pages of project members. I have had FTDNA contact them, but thus far they have not responded.

I know there are at least three. I'll go back in and check again to see if any more have appeared since several months ago when the number stood at three.

Keep in mind how long testing for L21 has been available relative to how long testing for U106 and U152 has been available, as well.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 05:19:01 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #141 on: November 29, 2009, 05:32:20 PM »

I visited Ceide Fields in Ireland last May.
(Maybe farming spread from Ireland with R-L21? ftp://:))

The Céide Fields are the oldest known field systems in the world, over five and a half millennia old. It is a unique Neolithic landscape of world importance, which has changed our perception of our Stone Age ancestors. The remains of stone field walls, houses and megalithic tombs are preserved beneath a blanket of peat over several square miles.


http://www.museumsofmayo.com/ceide.htm
(The pyramid shaped building is the Visitors centre)

Another read
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fianna/history/prehist1.html

Most people would say they are pre-Celtic.  They date to about 5-6000 years ago which is early Neolithic in Ireland.  There are no similar field systems known in later times in Ireland and in fact these arent the ones called Celtic fields anyway. The term Celtic fields was originally given to British fields that were thought to be Iron Age but have since turned out to be Bronze Age in the main.  There are no certain identified Iron Age field sytems in Ireland. I agree with Authon that the term Celtic field should be abandoned (it largely has).  Its an outmoded term that is inacurrate both culturally and chronologically.  It is still used for the want of another term but it is understood that the term is misleading. 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #142 on: November 29, 2009, 10:43:12 PM »

Interesting. There are only 696 Danes in the database, yet I still wonder how many of that number have deep clade tested.
These figures may give some indication. R1b from Denmark is estimated to be roughly half of the male population. Those who have had deep clade tseting (from the various projects) number as follows:
U106-  7
U152-  2
P312*- 2
L21-     1
U106-P312-  1*
(*I didn't check the ht35 project, but am aware of one member from Denmark, so I threw him him).
I am also aware of another awaiting results- so far he has tested U106-.
Total= 13. Assuming the R1a and I HGs have a similar rate (I haven't checked any of their projects), and I doubt they do as deep clade testing is more popular amoingst R1b, one could estimate possibly 25 deep clade tests from Denmark. Hardly a number which would justify betting the ranch.

That's incredible. Obviously, U106 has been tested longer but 25 Danes SNP tested is not enough (in my book) to say that L21 is not present in decent numbers there. Also, I wonder what the proportion of U106 in Denmark is L48+? If there is a lot of L48, could that be due to the Frisian factor?
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« Reply #143 on: December 01, 2009, 08:49:01 AM »

From what I can see looking at the figures in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database, Scandinavia is not far behind the British Isles in its rate of R-L21*.

The figure for the British Isles as a whole right now is 275/51091 = 0.005.

The figure for Scandinavia is 18/4429 = 0.004.

From what I can see, the highest regional rate of R-L21* is in France: 25/2759 = 0.009.

In other words, about one percent of all the French who have tested to 12 markers or more have also tested L21+. That's a pretty stout figure, considering that includes ALL of the French who have tested 12 or more markers, not just the R1b guys, and it includes all those who have not had any kind of SNP testing.

I may do this on a country by country basis later, if I get the time.

I have not added in the boatload of R-M222 guys in the British Isles because testing for M222 has been around for several years and caters to a kind of specialty market, so to speak. In other words, as a percentage of the whole I think it has been inflated because of its appeal to a group that is easily able to identify itself and order SNP testing with the end of getting an M222+ result in mind. What I had in mind was R-L21*, anyway.
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« Reply #144 on: December 01, 2009, 09:59:19 PM »

From what I can see looking at the figures in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database, Scandinavia is not far behind the British Isles in its rate of R-L21*.

The figure for the British Isles as a whole right now is 275/51091 = 0.005.

The figure for Scandinavia is 18/4429 = 0.004.

From what I can see, the highest regional rate of R-L21* is in France: 25/2759 = 0.009.


I may do this on a country by country basis later, if I get the time.

Well that certainly would upset some people's apple carts. Based on what we know at the moment, I would not be surprised if L21 turns out to be the most common R1b subclade in Norway. Denmark and Sweden still remain a mystery.
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« Reply #145 on: December 02, 2009, 12:10:10 AM »

Well that certainly would upset some people's apple carts. Based on what we know at the moment, I would not be surprised if L21 turns out to be the most common R1b subclade in Norway. Denmark and Sweden still remain a mystery.
Yes, I'm not sure which apple carts would be more turned around.  Those who think there is only one haplogroup of Viking or those who now think they are now a Viking.
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« Reply #146 on: December 02, 2009, 04:44:28 PM »

Well that certainly would upset some people's apple carts. Based on what we know at the moment, I would not be surprised if L21 turns out to be the most common R1b subclade in Norway. Denmark and Sweden still remain a mystery.
Yes, I'm not sure which apple carts would be more turned around.  Those who think there is only one haplogroup of Viking or those who now think they are now a Viking.
I was thinking of the apple carts of those who think all L21 in Scandinavia, and Norway in particular, was shipped out of Aberdeen.
As for your second point, I think some people are going to insist their ancestors were Viking, Norman or some other ethnicity of their choice, regardless of Ydna.
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« Reply #147 on: December 02, 2009, 04:55:36 PM »

Well that certainly would upset some people's apple carts. Based on what we know at the moment, I would not be surprised if L21 turns out to be the most common R1b subclade in Norway. Denmark and Sweden still remain a mystery.
Yes, I'm not sure which apple carts would be more turned around.  Those who think there is only one haplogroup of Viking or those who now think they are now a Viking.
I was thinking of the apple carts of those who think all L21 in Scandinavia, and Norway in particular, was shipped out of Aberdeen....
Yes that is another upset apple cart as well, but I've just never thought it was a reasonable alternative enough to have a large following.  I think there is more R-L21* in Sweden than we know, let alone Norway.  Who knows, maybe I'm old Swede? 
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #148 on: December 02, 2009, 09:54:58 PM »

Yes that is another upset apple cart as well, but I've just never thought it was a reasonable alternative enough to have a large following.  I think there is more R-L21* in Sweden than we know, let alone Norway.  Who knows, maybe I'm old Swede? 

Maybe you're Korean.
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« Reply #149 on: December 02, 2009, 10:12:19 PM »

I think Aberdeen should be rewarded with Wonder of the World status, due to its contribution to the population of Europe.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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