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NealtheRed
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« Reply #100 on: August 29, 2009, 10:14:21 AM »

Geez, Norway is really tallying those L-21, eh?


Neal
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rms2
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« Reply #101 on: August 29, 2009, 11:56:16 AM »

Geez, Norway is really tallying those L-21, eh?


Neal

Yeah, it's weird (but not in a bad way!).

It would be nice if we could get a big sample of Norwegian R1b1b2 to test for L21.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 11:56:52 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #102 on: September 04, 2009, 06:42:07 PM »

We added yet another Norwegian today. He hasn't supplied his most distant y-dna ancestor info yet, but you can see his haplotype on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #103 on: September 04, 2009, 07:39:02 PM »

That's two Norsemen in a week.


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rms2
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« Reply #104 on: September 05, 2009, 08:59:20 AM »

That's two Norsemen in a week.


Neal

True, and both of them have other Scandinavian matches.

I'll be honest with you: at first I thought the L21 popping up in Scandinavia was a fluke. But now it looks like it is something more than that, especially in Norway.

I wish someone would do a scientific study of R1b in Norway that included testing for all the SNPs that are currently known.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 09:00:06 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #105 on: September 05, 2009, 10:53:58 AM »

I believe L21 is the most common subclade of R1b in Norway, correct? I thought Vince or someone said that before, right after a FTDNA conference, I believe.

Norway's gotta be a hotspot.
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rms2
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« Reply #106 on: September 05, 2009, 01:35:39 PM »

I believe L21 is the most common subclade of R1b in Norway, correct? I thought Vince or someone said that before, right after a FTDNA conference, I believe.

Norway's gotta be a hotspot.

It is the most common subclade of Norwegian R1b in FTDNA's database, but I am not sure how much SNP-tested Norwegian R1b is in FTDNA's database.

Anyway, it seems to be well represented in Norway.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 01:59:11 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2009, 12:10:51 AM »

It is the most common subclade of Norwegian R1b in FTDNA's database, but I am not sure how much SNP-tested Norwegian R1b is in FTDNA's database.
...
Does anyone know the proportion of R1b by country, for Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland?
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
rms2
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« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2009, 09:24:49 AM »

Does anyone know the proportion of R1b by country, for Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland?

I can't cite any studies to back this up, but as I recall, Norway is about 30% R1b (it's about evenly split between R1b, R1a, and I1 at 30% apiece). Denmark is 45-50% R1b. Sweden is about 20% to maybe 25% R1b, and Finland, I think, is only 5-10% R1b.

As I recall, at the time of the last FTDNA conference, R-L21 was 50% or more of FTDNA's SNP-tested Norwegian R1b database. If that holds up, and if R1b is 30% of Norwegian y-dna, that would mean about 15% of ALL Norwegian men are R-L21.

It may end up being a somewhat lower figure, but it's still probably pretty significant.
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rms2
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« Reply #109 on: September 21, 2009, 09:05:55 PM »

I found a new R-L21* in the Scandinavia Project this evening, Långåker, kit 6475:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/scandinavianydna/default.aspx?section=yresults

His ancestor came from Göteborg, Sweden. Hopefully, he will join the R-L21 Plus Project.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 09:06:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #110 on: September 21, 2009, 09:39:34 PM »

Heyyy, those are my Longacre distant cousins!!!! One of my ancestors, Lars Gunnarson, came from Gothenburg, Sweden and settled in Pennsylvania thereafter! One of his great-grandaughters married into our Downing line (one my ggggg-grandmothers).

The Longacres married into the Gunnarson line too; we share the same ancestor. That's so cool!
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rms2
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« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2009, 08:07:58 AM »

Heyyy, those are my Longacre distant cousins!!!! One of my ancestors, Lars Gunnarson, came from Gothenburg, Sweden and settled in Pennsylvania thereafter! One of his great-grandaughters married into our Downing line (one my ggggg-grandmothers).

The Longacres married into the Gunnarson line too; we share the same ancestor. That's so cool!

Well, use your cousinly influence to get this one to join the R-L21 Plus Project!

Please!
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2009, 10:38:43 AM »

I guess I can contact them via ysearch, right? I know the Longacres are R1b, but it's even better they're in the same clan!
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rms2
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« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2009, 07:23:01 AM »

Announcing another new Norwegian R-L21*: Hetlet (most distant y-dna ancestor's surname is Steinsland), whose ancestor came from Hjelmeland east of Stavanger.

Hetlet (YSearch Z69DA) has that 406S1=11, 617=13 combo that seems to be strongly (if not absolutely) indicative of L21+ status.

His closest match at 67 markers is Merrill (Conrardy) of Luxembourg (YSearch 6C3G6), who is presently awaiting L21 results in our "L21 Pending" category. He also has the 406S1=11, 617=13 combo. Hopefully he will go L21+ very soon, too.
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rms2
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« Reply #114 on: November 28, 2009, 12:03:00 PM »

Yet another new Norwegian R-L21* was brought to light by one of the R-L21 Plus Project members from Norway ("Nove") over on the project's Yahoo group: Håberg, whose ancestor came from Ålesund.

Håberg has no FTDNA kit number or YSearch entry because he has tested only with 23andMe thus far.

I wonder just exactly how many Norwegian R-L21*s we have to find before people stop chalking them up as wayward Brits.

Someone give me a number, please.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #115 on: November 28, 2009, 02:26:52 PM »

Yet another new Norwegian R-L21* was brought to light by one of the R-L21 Plus Project members from Norway ("Nove") over on the project's Yahoo group: Håberg, whose ancestor came from Ålesund.

Håberg has no FTDNA kit number or YSearch entry because he has tested only with 23andMe thus far.

I wonder just exactly how many Norwegian R-L21*s we have to find before people stop chalking them up as wayward Brits.

Someone give me a number, please.
Having argued rather bitterly with the chief exponent of the theory that all continental, and most expressly Norwegian, L21 have an origin in Aberdeen, I would guess that the number required to change his mind would probably have to exceed the current population of Norway.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #116 on: November 28, 2009, 02:40:44 PM »

The strange thing about L21 being common west of the Rhine, the isles and Norway but not in between is that I cannot think of any prehistoric archaeological cultures of any period that linked those L21 areas while skipping over the north German and Danish area between.  I really cannot think of a period when that happened until the Viking Age.  So, if this pattern is real (and it must at least be a strong trend) then the explanation is not going to be a simple single wave one.   I personally do not have a clue why Norway seems more like the far west although it has to be factored in that there is a lower R1b1b2 count as a whole in Norway.    
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #117 on: November 28, 2009, 02:45:22 PM »

GoldenHind is right. He's just doing it in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. I am really intrigued about L21 in Norway, mostly because Denmark is so under-represented in deep clade testing.

I don't think L21 in Norway is due to founder effect - I may be wrong - but it is also in Sweden, on the west and east coasts. I remember that there are at least three Danish L21 out there, according to FTDNA. There has to be more, but there are not as many Danes in the database, nor that many that have deep clade testing.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #118 on: November 28, 2009, 02:53:06 PM »

If there are close matches between Scots and Norwegians that could be indirect  evidence that some L21 came to Scotland from Norway with the Vikings..  Not a lot but some.  However, a lot will depend on which Scots are linked to which Noregians. The vikings only really settled the north (north of the Great Glen) and the west coast (and islands).  So, the matches should be with Scots rom those areas if they came with the Vikings.  If the matches are between Norway and the east coast then the Viking ideas has problems.  That BTW doesnt meant that the Aberdeen ideas is right.  There are other options in deeper time if we bare in mind the founder effect possibility.  As with all issues, once the databases are more full of 67+ marker tested and SNP tested people the answer may be obvious.  
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 02:54:40 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #119 on: November 28, 2009, 02:58:24 PM »

The strange thing about L21 being common west of the Rhine, the isles and Norway but not in between is that I cannot think of any prehistoric archaeological cultures of any period that linked those L21 areas while skipping over the north German and Danish area between.  I really cannot think of a period when that happened until the Viking Age.  So, if this pattern is real (and it must at least be a strong trend) then the explanation is not going to be a simple single wave one.   I personally do not have a clue why Norway seems more like the far west although it has to be factored in that there is a lower R1b1b2 count as a whole in Norway.    

I know some have suggested the Viking slave trade as a possible answer. While that must be considered and may account for some of the L21 in Norway, it doesn't seem like it could account for all of it or the fact that it is showing up so frequently.

The only other thing I can think of is, once again, the Beaker Folk phenomenon.

http://events.um.edu.mt/eaa2008/prescott.pdf

Quote
THE NORWEGIAN COAST; SO MUCH SO FAST
Christopher Prescott, Institute of Archaeology, University of Oslo, Norway

The Late Neolithic (the LN,2350-1750 BC) in Norway can be regarded as the
initiation of the Bronze Age in southern and coastal Norway. LN-developments were
probably sparked by Beaker influences, conceivably also migration, from northern
Jutland in Denmark to Lista and Jæren in Southern Norway, and are thus part of
wider southern Scandinavian development around the Battle Axe Period to LNBeaker
transition.
From these geographically and chronologically restricted beginnings, early LN
technology, modes of production and culture quickly spread throughout southern
and coastal replacing older social, cultural and production forms, and redefining a
historical trajectory. Spreading perhaps as far as 1000 km from the Beaker areas in
Lista and Rogaland, the speed in which these wide-reaching and dramatic changes
took place is equally remarkable, perhaps taking place within a generation.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2009, 03:05:02 PM »

We really do need the DNA dating experts to progress.  Until they do then DNA cannot contribute much to reconstructing of prehistory other than trying to extrapolate based on distributions and to an extent phylogenetic position in the clade tree.  The limitations of this can be seen by the total inconclusiveness we see today.  There seems to be a hopeless chasm between those who date R1b1b2 to the Bronze Age and those who date it to the Ice Age.  
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rms2
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« Reply #121 on: November 28, 2009, 03:13:24 PM »

If there are close matches between Scots and Norwegians that could be indirect  evidence that some L21 came to Scotland from Norway with the Vikings..  Not a lot but some.  However, a lot will depend on which Scots are linked to which Noregians. The vikings only really settled the north (north of the Great Glen) and the west coast (and islands).  So, the matches should be with Scots rom those areas if they came with the Vikings.  If the matches are between Norway and the east coast then the Viking ideas has problems.  That BTW doesnt meant that the Aberdeen ideas is right.  There are other options in deeper time if we bare in mind the founder effect possibility.  As with all issues, once the databases are more full of 67+ marker tested and SNP tested people the answer may be obvious.  

There are a couple of guys (one Norwegian and one Swede, as I recall) who look like they could possibly be the descendants of transplanted Scots. I think they are the sole basis for the Scotland-to-Norway argument. The rest of the R-L21* Scandinavians don't fit that bill.

As just about everyone here knows, it has been an uphill battle since the first L21+ results came out to convince some folks that L21 might have originated on the Continent. My own opinion is that they are being confused by the sheer weight of British Isles participation (especially North Americans of British Isles descent) in genetic genealogy, especially when it comes to R1b1b2, and letting that convince them that L21 must have originated there.

I don't exactly know how to take FTDNA's "Ancestral Origins" pages, but let's use them for a minute. According to Ancestral Origins, there are nearly 20,000 men who identify their y-dna ancestry as English who have at least 12 markers tested. The figure for Norway is just slightly over 1,000. That's a nearly 20-to-1 ratio of English to Norwegians. For Scotland, it's just over 9,000. Again, about a 9-to-1 ratio. Ireland has over 11,000 tested to 12 markers or more. 11-to-1.

And it seems to me, and this is just my take on things, that North Americans of British Isles descent (and that includes me) SNP test like no other people.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 03:17:30 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #122 on: November 28, 2009, 03:17:06 PM »

The real problem with the beaker idea for L21 in Norway is that while the article does point out beaker influence has been underestimated in Norway, it is unequivcal in Denmark and you would expect more not less there.  So if the impression is not an illusion then the low L21 in Denmark would require a founder effect in the crossing to Norway.  The article seems to note Denmark as the main beaker influence too.   There is still a possibility that L21 has a couple of local hotspots in Denmark.  I think from the beaker period to the Iron Age there could have been small groups who were primarily in place to control trade to and from that area (amber etc for Copper, tin etc). Cunliffe seems to suggest elite nodes in the general area where trade down the Elbe was controlled from for instance and these had links with central Europe to the south.    
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rms2
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« Reply #123 on: November 28, 2009, 03:21:28 PM »

There is also the possibility that L21 was once prevalent along the North Sea coast from the Netherlands to Norway. Hubert believed the Gaels left NW Germany to go to Ireland. Even if that is wrong, it is possible L21 could have been displaced by U106 in the lands that intervene between Norway and the Netherlands.
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rms2
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« Reply #124 on: November 28, 2009, 03:28:32 PM »

I just quickly added up the number of men who have tested to at least 12 markers and who identified someplace in the British Isles as their y-dna ancestral home. The figure I got was 50,504. That is as of today.

The total number of Norwegians tested to at least 12 markers is 1,098.

Those figures come from the Ancestral Origins page of one of the members of the R-L21 Plus Project.

I'll let you all chew on those numbers.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 03:29:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

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