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Author Topic: R-L21* in Scandinavia  (Read 15308 times)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2009, 11:54:09 AM »

No one's saying L-21 originated in Norway, but it is probable that some Norwegian Vikings brought L-21 to Ireland and Britain. That's a migration theory I can accept. Furthermore, L-21 got to Norway from Denmark, not Ireland.

There is more R1b than R1a in Norway, Denmark, and Sweden anyway. In fact, R1b is 40% of Iceland's population as well.

If L-21 originated along the Rhine then that would be a good explanation of how it got to both Britain and Norway. One group travelled northwards through Denmark, and the other across the English Channel. Of course, L-21 is the most well-represented clade in Ireland, but that could be due to two different scenarios: 1. Ireland is fairly secluded from continental Europe, so it is not a surprise L-21 is so numerous there. 2. The sampling bias clines towards the British Isles.

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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2009, 06:25:35 PM »

No one's saying L-21 originated in Norway, but it is probable that some Norwegian Vikings brought L-21 to Ireland and Britain. That's a migration theory I can accept. Furthermore, L-21 got to Norway from Denmark, not Ireland...
I think this is where it becomes very helpful to have as many 67 marker haplotypes as possible and look for unique clustering.   I would think that L21+ in Ireland that had been there prehistorically would have a large populations today with a few strong modal themes.  Now you may find a somewhat unusual cluster of L21+ that matches fairly well with a Norwegian L21+ cluster.  If you find that, wa la! that might be latter period immigrants into Ireland.

I've got a personal example where I'm from Wales via Ireland.  I don't match any of the large L21+ modals in Ireland, which I wouldn't expect if I'm an historic period immigrant from Wales.   However, I'm also finding I don't fit into the dominant, large L21+ WAMH cluster in Wales either.   Now some folks are telling me I match some key off-modals for L21+ folks that may fit with some people of Norman origin.  I don't know, maybe I'm a Norwegian after all but had to go thru France then England to get to Ireland.   Maybe not.

I just wish more people would get tested for L21+ and for 67 markers.  The weight is in the numbers.
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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2009, 03:01:43 AM »

I absolutely agree, Mike.
As far as I saw in the Wales DNA project, most of the people are not tested for downward SNPs of M269. Thats a pity because it would be interesting if L-21 or U-152 is more frequent there...
Do anyone have any data concerning this issue?
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
rms2
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« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2009, 07:52:33 AM »

No one's saying L-21 originated in Norway, but it is probable that some Norwegian Vikings brought L-21 to Ireland and Britain. That's a migration theory I can accept. Furthermore, L-21 got to Norway from Denmark, not Ireland.

There is more R1b than R1a in Norway, Denmark, and Sweden anyway. In fact, R1b is 40% of Iceland's population as well.

If L-21 originated along the Rhine then that would be a good explanation of how it got to both Britain and Norway. One group travelled northwards through Denmark, and the other across the English Channel. Of course, L-21 is the most well-represented clade in Ireland, but that could be due to two different scenarios: 1. Ireland is fairly secluded from continental Europe, so it is not a surprise L-21 is so numerous there. 2. The sampling bias clines towards the British Isles.



Number 2 is a real problem for us right now. People look at the R-L21* Map and right away conclude that L21 must have come from Ireland and spread out from there.

Ireland is an island nation of about 4 million people. Germany, on the other hand, is in the midst of continental Europe and has a population of over 80 million.

If R1b1b2 of various kinds is roughly 50% of German y dna (maybe more in the West), then let's try a guess at how much L21 there is. Some say U106 may be 40% of German R1b1b2. Let's say 20% is U152. Of the remaining 40% of German R1b1b2, I'm guessing nearly half, 15-20% of total German R1b1b2, is L21+. The remaining 20% of German R1b1b2 would be split between R-P312* and a small amount (maybe 5% or less) of R1b1b2-"Other".

Just to be conservative, let's go with the 15% figure for L21. If 15% of German R1b1b2 is L21+, that means about 3 million German men are L21+.

That would mean there are almost as many L21+ Germans as there are people in Ireland.

Of course, the proportion of L21 in Germany could be lower than my guesstimate.

But the fact is that persons of British and Irish descent are over represented right now in genetic genealogy. Look at the map for the U106 Project. Testing for U106 has been going on since 2005, so there has been time to accumulate some continental results. But look at the mass of placemarks in the British Isles. There is only one obvious conclusion one can reach: U106 originated in the British Isles! (Kidding.)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 07:53:05 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2009, 04:34:09 PM »

RMS,
I'm looking at the R-L21* map (which is great!,) I noticed the following:
Placemark 74   Kit: N36461
Most Distant Ancestor: Lauritz (Lasse) Lasseson Heihiller, b. abt 1630, Norway
YSearch: 8EQYZ

When I look up 8EQYZ in Ysearch it has a surname of Nilssen.  Which is the correct surname?

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2009, 05:21:39 PM »

Same question for RMS,
On the map, Placemark 118 Kit number: 131808
Most Distant Ancestor: Lars Eriksson born abt 1730 in Lappfjärd, Finland
YSearch: GTTS6

..b ut YSearch has GTTS6 as Klockars.  Is Eriksson or Klockars the most correct surname?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #81 on: April 15, 2009, 07:18:17 PM »

Same question for RMS,
On the map, Placemark 118 Kit number: 131808
Most Distant Ancestor: Lars Eriksson born abt 1730 in Lappfjärd, Finland
YSearch: GTTS6

..b ut YSearch has GTTS6 as Klockars.  Is Eriksson or Klockars the most correct surname?

One must keep in mind that until the 19th century (I thinK) patronymic surnames, which were standard,  changed with each generation in Scandinavia. Thus the son of Lars Jensen, if named Ole, would be called Ole Larsen. The surname changed with each generation, depending on the first name of the father. So one could have the surname Klocklars today, but have an earliest known ancestor with the name Ericksson, whose son had the surname Swensen and grandson the name Olsen.
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rms2
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« Reply #82 on: April 15, 2009, 07:57:05 PM »

Same question for RMS,
On the map, Placemark 118 Kit number: 131808
Most Distant Ancestor: Lars Eriksson born abt 1730 in Lappfjärd, Finland
YSearch: GTTS6

..b ut YSearch has GTTS6 as Klockars.  Is Eriksson or Klockars the most correct surname?

One must keep in mind that until the 19th century (I thinK) patronymic surnames, which were standard,  changed with each generation in Scandinavia. Thus the son of Lars Jensen, if named Ole, would be called Ole Larsen. The surname changed with each generation, depending on the first name of the father. So one could have the surname Klocklars today, but have an earliest known ancestor with the name Ericksson, whose son had the surname Swensen and grandson the name Olsen.

That's right. The two men Mike asked about above have the surnames Nilssen and Klockars today, but their most distant ancestors had the surnames reported on the R-L21* Map.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2009, 11:43:23 PM »

One must keep in mind that until the 19th century (I thinK) patronymic surnames, which were standard,  changed with each generation in Scandinavia. Thus the son of Lars Jensen, if named Ole, would be called Ole Larsen. The surname changed with each generation, depending on the first name of the father. So one could have the surname Klocklars today, but have an earliest known ancestor with the name Ericksson, whose son had the surname Swensen and grandson the name Olsen.
I didn't realize they were doing that in Scandinavia as late as the 1800's.
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Bjorn Arne Skinnerup
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« Reply #84 on: May 18, 2009, 11:27:39 AM »

Hello
You can have a look on: www.skinnerup.org where to find som about Scandinavia. There is a link on the left ide buttom, DNA and DNA2 where to find my result, that covers MTDNA Ireland, Scotland and England. Y-DNA is strictly Sacnadinavian.

Like to haer more:

Hello
Long time ago a family came to Denmark:

Første Generation

1.  Christian Small, born 15?? i Montros, Scotland, dead FØR 1607 i Dundee.

     She was married to Andrew Mortimer, born 15?? i Montros, Dundee, Scotland, (son of John Mortimer) dead FØR 1607 i Dundee, stilling: borger.

                             Child:
                              +           2                    i.                    Hillebrand ( Gilbert) Andersen born 1583.
                                            3                    ii.                   Janet Andrewsdatter Mortimer, born 15?? i Scotland, dead i Stubbekøbing.


Anden Generation

2.  Hillebrand ( Gilbert) Andersen, born 1583 i Montros, Scotland, dead 1629 i Stubbekøbing, stilling: købmand.

     He was married to Gundel Carstensdatter, born 1590, dead 17 sep 1652 i Stubbekøbing, burried i Stubbekøbing.

                             Child:
                                            4                    i.                    Carsten Hillebrandsen, born apr 1624 i Stubbekøbing, dead 1697 i Stubbekøbing, burried 5 feb 1697, Occupation: merchandiser.

                                                                                       He was married to Maren Jespersdatter, born jul 1618, dead 1688 i Maribo.

                                            5                    ii.                   Peder Hillebrandsen, born 1625 i Stubbekøbing, dead i Stubbekøbing.
                                            6                    iii.                  Thomas Hillebrandsen Mortemer, born ?1628 i Stubbekøbing, dead 9 feb 1664 i Stubbekøbing, burried i Stubbekøbing.

These are some of my Scots ancestors that I can’t find. On the page www.skinnerup.org you can find my DND and a GedCom containing 61.000 persons, many from Scotland.
I really hope, that someone can solve the problem. Who are the parents to Christian Small, and Andrew Mortimer. I also have the Forbes family as ancestors, as well as Duncan, Gordon, Fraser, Skene, Bruce and many more.

Sincerely yours Bjorn Skinnerup
 


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Skinnerup from Denmark. Site:www.skinnerup.org
rms2
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« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2009, 07:30:58 AM »

Yesterday evening I discovered a new R-L21* in the Denmark Project - kit 111060 - here, in the "Unassigned Members" category.

One caveat, however. The entry has only a kit number and no name listed, so there is no way to tell if this person actually has Danish y-dna ancestry or has joined because of Danish ancestry on the maternal side (the project has an mtDNA component). One sees that in other projects sometimes, as well.

I have written the project's admin to try to recruit this person for the R-L21 Plus Project.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2009, 07:43:18 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2009, 07:13:48 PM »

A new Swedish R-L21*, kit N29541, here.

I'm hoping he'll join the R-L21 Plus Project.
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« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2009, 08:30:03 PM »

A new Swedish R-L21*, kit N29541, here.

I'm hoping he'll join the R-L21 Plus Project.

He joined.

(Mike, you might be interested. This is Wallentinus.)
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« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2009, 11:03:08 PM »

A new Swedish R-L21*, kit N29541....
He joined.  (Mike, you might be interested. This is Wallentinus.)
Cool!   I noticed him on Ysearch with some similarities to my haplotype but a very unusual YCAAIIa which I notice because mine is off-modal.  I asked him to check and sure enough, his YCAAIIa was the same as mine so I speculated he'd be L21+ also and asked him to consider the deep clade test.

Thanks for your help in getting me on the right track.  I'll quote you from a thread almost a year ago. Stevo posted, "My guess is R1b1c* for you, my brother. You've got a Morgan (WTDAE) 7 away at 67 markers and an Evans (KRXND) 8 away. Those are Welsh names from way back."   Didier added, "I agree with Stevo and it looks like a small cluster with 406S1=11 and YCAIIa=18."

It turns out 406S1=11 and 617=13 puts me in a fairly clear, but large group of R-L21* folks.   Add the YCAIIa=18 and we end up with a small but close-knit subgroup.

How do a  couple of guys from Wales fit with a guy from Sweden... Ostergotland at that?
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« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2009, 07:40:52 AM »


Cool!   I noticed him on Ysearch with some similarities to my haplotype but a very unusual YCAAIIa which I notice because mine is off-modal.  I asked him to check and sure enough, his YCAAIIa was the same as mine so I speculated he'd be L21+ also and asked him to consider the deep clade test.

Thanks for your help in getting me on the right track.  I'll quote you from a thread almost a year ago. Stevo posted, "My guess is R1b1c* for you, my brother. You've got a Morgan (WTDAE) 7 away at 67 markers and an Evans (KRXND) 8 away. Those are Welsh names from way back."   Didier added, "I agree with Stevo and it looks like a small cluster with 406S1=11 and YCAIIa=18."

It turns out 406S1=11 and 617=13 puts me in a fairly clear, but large group of R-L21* folks.   Add the YCAIIa=18 and we end up with a small but close-knit subgroup.

How do a  couple of guys from Wales fit with a guy from Sweden... Ostergotland at that?


That's a good question.  We already know the conclusion that some will jump to, but it will be interesting to see how the broader 406S1=11/617=13 group maps out.

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2009, 08:45:06 PM »

Wandering Welsh monks?
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rms2
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« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2009, 08:53:31 PM »

Wandering Welsh monks?

Who were themselves the offspring of wayward Irish monks, or something along those lines.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #92 on: June 12, 2009, 10:36:26 PM »

I haven't posted in awhile, but seeing Rich and GoldenHind's posts on monks crack me up!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 10:37:09 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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GoldenHind
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« Reply #93 on: June 14, 2009, 03:37:18 PM »

I haven't posted in awhile, but seeing Rich and GoldenHind's posts on monks crack me up!
It's nice to know at least someone appreciates my attempts at humor, as they are sometimes somewhat cryptic.
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rms2
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« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2009, 04:12:38 PM »

Anyway, Wallentinus' closest matches at 67 markers do appear to be Welsh and not too far off (one at a gd of 7, as I recall).
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #95 on: June 15, 2009, 05:18:01 PM »

I just noticed this about the Scandinavians.   Most of them are off modal at 391 (with a 10) and 431a (with a 22).    I cross checked that with all R-L21* and see this combination is somewhat common across England and Scotland as well Scandinavia.

I start to lose the Scandinavians, when I start refining (further restricting) with med-slow off modal markers, but beyond 391=10, 431=22,  I found a pretty strong subgroup of YCAIIb=24, GATAH4=12, 531=12 and 444=11.  I'm not sure of the exact definition, but I think that is close to the Scots Modal.
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« Reply #96 on: June 26, 2009, 09:21:15 PM »

A new Finnish R-L21* in YSearch: 8P2PH,  Hoyhtya, ancestral surname Lalli.

He currently only has 12 markers in YSearch. I emailed him and invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.
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« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2009, 06:49:00 PM »

I've been contacted by a Norwegian guy who tested L21+ (S145+) with Ethnoancestry. He is interested in also testing with FTDNA so he can join the R-L21 Plus Project. His ancestor came from Ølfernes in Hordaland, which makes him our fourth L21+ who traces his ancestry to Hordaland.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 07:05:03 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2009, 11:34:14 AM »

I've been contacted by a Norwegian guy who tested L21+ (S145+) with Ethnoancestry. He is interested in also testing with FTDNA so he can join the R-L21 Plus Project. His ancestor came from Ølfernes in Hordaland, which makes him our fourth L21+ who traces his ancestry to Hordaland.

He has provided me with the info to add him to the R-L21* European Continent Map and is ordering a 67-marker test from FTDNA. You'll have to click on the map a few times to bring in Bergen, Norway, to find his marker, but it's there.

YSearch 5G4G5
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 11:35:25 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #99 on: August 29, 2009, 09:40:51 AM »

We've had a new Norwegian R-L21* join the R-L21 Plus Project, surname Emblem, but I don't know exactly where in Norway his ancestor came from. I'm waiting for him to answer my email or to update his "Plot Ancestral Locations" page or create a YSearch entry.

Anyway, you can see his haplotype in the Scandinavia category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project.
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