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rms2
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« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2009, 07:49:57 PM »

Check this Twitter message out from Vince Vizachero at the big conference in Houston:

http://twitter.com/vineviz/status/1332921566

Am I understanding that right? Is Dr. Hammer saying L21+ is 50% of the R1b1b2 in Norway?

If so, WOW!!!

R1b1b2 is about 30% of Norwegian y-dna. If L21+ is half of that, that means 15% of Norwegian men are L21+. That's big!

Wow!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 08:01:56 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2009, 08:05:46 PM »

Check this Twitter message out from Vince Vizachero at the big conference in Houston:

http://twitter.com/vineviz/status/1332921566

Am I understanding that right? Is Dr. Hammer saying L21+ is 50% of the R1b1b2 in Norway?

If so, WOW!!!

R1b1b2 is about 30% of Norwegian y-dna. If L21+ is half of that, that means 15% of Norwegian men are L21+. That's big!

Wow!
I believe I am correct that to date not one U106 has been identified in Norway, even after several years of testing.
Apparently the wandering Irish monks and Scottish timber merchants drove all the Germanic U106 types out of Norway.
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« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2009, 09:41:27 PM »

That's pretty big news.  Also did you see Vince's other recent reports.  Hammer says Semino should be reconsidered.  M269 Neolithic - 4k to 8k years old...
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« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2009, 12:41:28 AM »

Check this Twitter message out from Vince Vizachero at the big conference in Houston:

http://twitter.com/vineviz/status/1332921566

Am I understanding that right? Is Dr. Hammer saying L21+ is 50% of the R1b1b2 in Norway?

If so, WOW!!!

R1b1b2 is about 30% of Norwegian y-dna. If L21+ is half of that, that means 15% of Norwegian men are L21+. That's big!

Wow!
I think the numbers predicted for Scandinavia rule out an Irish origination for L21 altogether.   I keep thinking about the Bell Beakers because they were so widespread in Europe, but I don't hear of evidence of them in Norway.   Did the Bell Beakers and Megaliths hit Norway to any extent?

If not, that leaves the Iron Age Celts... I think.  The Halstatt culture apparently reached Scandinavia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Roman_Iron_Age
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« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2009, 12:44:45 AM »

Using the steady state formula for population growth:

g = number of generations
p = present population of L21 men in Norway
r = average generational growth


Assume p = 4644457 * 50% * 15% = 350,000 (approx)
  [4644457 figure from CIA Fact Book]

Assume r = 14.5% (14% to 15% average growth rate is from an earlier estimate on dna-forums)

g = log(p)/log(1+r)
g = log(350,000)/log(1.145) = 94 (approx)

If 1 generation = 30 years, then all of Norwegian L21 could have come from a single man who lived approximately 2,800 years ago.


It would be interesting to see how this figure compares with haplotype variance age estimates.
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« Reply #55 on: March 17, 2009, 01:40:51 PM »

Using the steady state formula for population growth:
g = number of generations
p = present population of L21 men in Norway
r = average generational growth
Assume p = 4644457 * 50% * 15% = 350,000 (approx)
  [4644457 figure from CIA Fact Book]
Assume r = 14.5% (14% to 15% average growth rate is from an earlier estimate on dna-forums)
g = log(p)/log(1+r)
g = log(350,000)/log(1.145) = 94 (approx)
If 1 generation = 30 years, then all of Norwegian L21 could have come from a single man who lived approximately 2,800 years ago.

It would be interesting to see how this figure compares with haplotype variance age estimates.
Would the growth rate you project for a potential single L21 man about 800 BC apply to the rest of the Norwegian population?  Any estimates on the population of Norway about 800 BC?   It would seem that either 1) L21 got there earlier than 800 BC for organic growth to cause the numbers to be fairly high there today or 2) he had a substantial physical or cultural advantage that gave him a much higher growth rate than the rest of the population. 

In terms of known peoples, my guess would be in that in case 1 (got their earlier) L21 might have been carried with Bell Beaker folks or in case 2 (substantial advantage) L21 might been carried with Halstatt type Celts with a lot of metal tools and weapons.

What do you think?  A clan of Halstatt peoples that had an L21 progenitor?

Any other options that you can see?   I don't see how L21 could have been a Paleothic or Mesolithic inhabitant.  Seems much too young.
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« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2009, 02:32:27 PM »

Reluctantly, I have to qualify what I wrote about what Dr. Hammer said at the FTDNA conference in Houston. I wrote Dr. Krahn and asked him about it. He said that finding is very preliminary and is based on FTDNA's customer database.

But it is promising anyway that 50% of the Norwegian R1b1b2s in FTDNA's SNP-tested database are L21+.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 02:33:16 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2009, 02:40:47 PM »

.... A challenge when understanding the impact of the Normans on the British Isles genetically is that it is hard to tell how much is not just the "old" people recycled.  For instance, a Breton-Norman's Y DNA may look just like the Briton's Y DNA since that his is old homeland.  Or perhaps a Romano-Gaul-Norman's Y DNA may look like a Briton's because he had long lost Gaullic cousins who move into the Isles many years prior to become Britons.
I assume by the term Briton-Norman you mean an inhabitant of Normandy of Breton ancestry. I always try to remind people that the term Norman means an inhabitant of Normandy, and NOT someone from Brittany, Flanders, Picardy, etc, who joined Duke William's army in the conquest of England. I know some people use the term Norman very loosely.
But that aside, the DNA of a Norman of Danish ancestry might be identical to a descendant of a Danish settler in the Danelaw in England. I have also said before that I would not be surprised if there were a lot of cousins, some perhaps reasonably close but most probably fairly distant, who fought on opposite sides at the Battle of Hastings.
Actually, I meant what I said.. a Breton-Norman.    By that I meant a member of the Norman invading force into Great Britain that had a Breton ancestry (as in Brittany, France.)   The original Norsemen who invaded France and established Normandy intermixed with the locals, some of which were Bretons and some of which probably were Romano-Gauls and maybe even some Franks.
I didn't intend to use the term Normans loosely, it's just that in fact they were a "loose" mixture of people. "What's a Norman" is not an easy question to answer precisely.  They were a true mixed people.
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« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2009, 02:46:52 PM »

Reluctantly, I have to qualify what I wrote about what Dr. Hammer said at the FTDNA conference in Houston. I wrote Dr. Krahn and asked him about it. He said that finding is very preliminary and is based on FTDNA's customer database.
But it is promising anyway that 50% of the Norwegian R1b1b2s in FTDNA's SNP-tested database are L21+.
I've been looking at whatever maps of R-M269 subclades/groups I can find.

R-U106  http://dna-forums.org/index.php?autocom=custom&page=Map_U106 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

R-U152  http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=116137979488210255883.00044e170d065ca91df35&z=4

R-L21*  http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=102956803377716741902.000459f49b2bc2c3cc27e&z=4

R-P312* http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=102956803377716741902.000451315c3a8da9708e0

U152 seems to congregate around the Skagerrak Straits up in the Oslo, Norway area, which right across from Denmark.

U106 is in Norway, Sweden and Finland but seems more likely to be found on the Baltic Sea side, Sweden.  One of the maps did show one U106 in Norway.

L21* is a bit scattered across Norway, including its Atlantic side, as well as Sweden and Finland.

P312* is also scattered across Norway, Sweden and Finland, but doesn't show up on the Atlantic side of Norway.

All I can say is given the late start the L21 test has compared to U106 and U152, L21 may be the more predominant, particularly for the Norway/Atlantic side.   The numbers are still low from an sample size perspective so if Dr. Hammer does have more data it'd be nice to know what he is looking at.
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« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2009, 04:33:51 PM »

Testing for U152 and U106 has been going on since 2005. Testing for L21 has been going on since October of 2008, with the first FTDNA results coming back, as I recall, in November.

That's important to remember, it seems to me, especially in a field overloaded with persons of British and Irish ancestry (including me, probably).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 04:34:10 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2009, 06:40:02 PM »

On the DNA Forums, a person identified as Neathelred said his maternal grandfather just came in as L21+.  He said he has an L21 match from Denmark, but here is the info in his signature line:
Maternal Grandfather Y-DNA (Schäfer) - Prussian Saxony, Germany : R1b1b2 (R-M269)

I'm asked him to register for the L21 and P312 projects if he hasn't already.
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« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2009, 07:00:13 PM »

.... A challenge when understanding the impact of the Normans on the British Isles genetically is that it is hard to tell how much is not just the "old" people recycled.  For instance, a Breton-Norman's Y DNA may look just like the Briton's Y DNA since that his is old homeland.  Or perhaps a Romano-Gaul-Norman's Y DNA may look like a Briton's because he had long lost Gaullic cousins who move into the Isles many years prior to become Britons.
I assume by the term Briton-Norman you mean an inhabitant of Normandy of Breton ancestry. I always try to remind people that the term Norman means an inhabitant of Normandy, and NOT someone from Brittany, Flanders, Picardy, etc, who joined Duke William's army in the conquest of England. I know some people use the term Norman very loosely.
But that aside, the DNA of a Norman of Danish ancestry might be identical to a descendant of a Danish settler in the Danelaw in England. I have also said before that I would not be surprised if there were a lot of cousins, some perhaps reasonably close but most probably fairly distant, who fought on opposite sides at the Battle of Hastings.
Actually, I meant what I said.. a Breton-Norman.    By that I meant a member of the Norman invading force into Great Britain that had a Breton ancestry (as in Brittany, France.)   The original Norsemen who invaded France and established Normandy intermixed with the locals, some of which were Bretons and some of which probably were Romano-Gauls and maybe even some Franks.
I didn't intend to use the term Normans loosely, it's just that in fact they were a "loose" mixture of people. "What's a Norman" is not an easy question to answer precisely.  They were a true mixed people.
I don't mean to dwell on this, but it something I have a bug about. I don't disagree with you that the Normans genetically were a very mixed bunch. But the term "Norman" has a meaning and relates to the Duchy of Normandy. It should not be confused with the Duchy of Brittany, which was quite sepatrate and distinct. People from Brittany were not Normans in any sense of the word.
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« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2009, 07:14:47 PM »

Using the steady state formula for population growth:
g = number of generations
p = present population of L21 men in Norway
r = average generational growth
Assume p = 4644457 * 50% * 15% = 350,000 (approx)
  [4644457 figure from CIA Fact Book]
Assume r = 14.5% (14% to 15% average growth rate is from an earlier estimate on dna-forums)
g = log(p)/log(1+r)
g = log(350,000)/log(1.145) = 94 (approx)
If 1 generation = 30 years, then all of Norwegian L21 could have come from a single man who lived approximately 2,800 years ago.

It would be interesting to see how this figure compares with haplotype variance age estimates.
Would the growth rate you project for a potential single L21 man about 800 BC apply to the rest of the Norwegian population?  Any estimates on the population of Norway about 800 BC?   It would seem that either 1) L21 got there earlier than 800 BC for organic growth to cause the numbers to be fairly high there today or 2) he had a substantial physical or cultural advantage that gave him a much higher growth rate than the rest of the population. 

In terms of known peoples, my guess would be in that in case 1 (got their earlier) L21 might have been carried with Bell Beaker folks or in case 2 (substantial advantage) L21 might been carried with Halstatt type Celts with a lot of metal tools and weapons.

What do you think?  A clan of Halstatt peoples that had an L21 progenitor?

Any other options that you can see?   I don't see how L21 could have been a Paleothic or Mesolithic inhabitant.  Seems much too young.

A fellow who goes by Authun dug this up for another forum.  Bell Beaker folks did impact Scandinavia:
Quote from: Authun
HE BEAKER CULTURE AND BRONZE AGE BEGINNINGS ALONG THE NORWEGIAN COAST; SO MUCH SO FAST (Christopher Prescott)

The Late Neolithic (the LN,2350-1750 BC) in Norway can be regarded as the initiation of the Bronze Age in southern and coastal Norway. LN-developments were probably sparked by Beaker influences, conceivably also migration, from northern Jutland in Denmark to Lista and Jæren in Southern Norway, and are thus part of wider southern Scandinavian development around the Battle Axe Period to LNBeaker transition.

From these geographically and chronologically restricted beginnings, early LN technology, modes of production and culture quickly spread throughout southern
and coastal replacing older social, cultural and production forms, and redefining a historical trajectory. Spreading perhaps as far as 1000 km from the Beaker areas in Lista and Rogaland, the speed in which these wide-reaching and dramatic changes took place is equally remarkable, perhaps taking place within a generation.

LATE NEOLITHIC EXPANSION TO NORWAY – MEMORIES OF A SEA-BORNE EPISODE (Einar Østmo)

During the Early and Middle Neolithic, South Scandinavian Neolithic cultures were present in Norway foremost in the Oslo Fiord region in SE Norway. Late Neolithic finds are however abundant above all in SW Norway, certainly testifying to the opening of the sea route across the Skagerrak. These finds include Bell Beaker pottery and pressure-flaked points with tang and barbs, in addition to numerous flint daggers and other items. Arguably, the sea-borne expansion was connected with recent inventions concerning shipbuilding, probably made possible by the new metal tools, foremost axes. This marks the beginning of the Northern shipbuilding tradition, distinct from those found in Britain and in the Mediterranean and gave rise to the development of Scandinavian shipbuilding during the Bronze and Iron Ages.
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« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2009, 07:21:46 PM »

On the DNA Forums, a person identified as Neathelred said his maternal grandfather just came in as L21+.  He said he has an L21 match from Denmark, but here is the info in his signature line:
Maternal Grandfather Y-DNA (Schäfer) - Prussian Saxony, Germany : R1b1b2 (R-M269)

I'm asked him to register for the L21 and P312 projects if he hasn't already.

Thanks, Mike!
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« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2009, 03:05:19 PM »

I just noticed the "My Matches" tab on my "Haplotree" page today ( I would swear it wasn't there yesterday). Anyway, I have an "R1b1b2a1b5" (R-L21*) match from Denmark there, too. Maybe it's the same guy mentioned above who matches Neal's maternal grandfather. Anyway, now we know there is at least one. Too bad he's not in YSearch and hasn't joined the R-L21 Plus Project.
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« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2009, 03:35:28 PM »

A fellow who goes by Authun dug this up for another forum.  Bell Beaker folks did impact Scandinavia:
Quote from: Authun
HE BEAKER CULTURE AND BRONZE AGE BEGINNINGS ALONG THE NORWEGIAN COAST; SO MUCH SO FAST (Christopher Prescott)[/size]

The Late Neolithic (the LN,2350-1750 BC) in Norway can be regarded as the initiation of the Bronze Age in southern and coastal Norway. LN-developments were probably sparked by Beaker influences, conceivably also migration, from northern Jutland in Denmark to Lista and Jæren in Southern Norway, and are thus part of wider southern Scandinavian development around the Battle Axe Period to LNBeaker transition.

From these geographically and chronologically restricted beginnings, early LN technology, modes of production and culture quickly spread throughout southern
and coastal replacing older social, cultural and production forms, and redefining a historical trajectory. Spreading perhaps as far as 1000 km from the Beaker areas in Lista and Rogaland, the speed in which these wide-reaching and dramatic changes took place is equally remarkable, perhaps taking place within a generation.

LATE NEOLITHIC EXPANSION TO NORWAY – MEMORIES OF A SEA-BORNE EPISODE (Einar Østmo)

During the Early and Middle Neolithic, South Scandinavian Neolithic cultures were present in Norway foremost in the Oslo Fiord region in SE Norway. Late Neolithic finds are however abundant above all in SW Norway, certainly testifying to the opening of the sea route across the Skagerrak. These finds include Bell Beaker pottery and pressure-flaked points with tang and barbs, in addition to numerous flint daggers and other items. Arguably, the sea-borne expansion was connected with recent inventions concerning shipbuilding, probably made possible by the new metal tools, foremost axes. This marks the beginning of the Northern shipbuilding tradition, distinct from those found in Britain and in the Mediterranean and gave rise to the development of Scandinavian shipbuilding during the Bronze and Iron Ages.



Wow! Why didn't I notice that post before? Probably because I was sick on St. Patrick's Day, the day you posted it, and because of the small print used in quoting here unless one resizes it.

Well, it seems to me if the Beaker Folk brought L21 to Britain - and we don't know that for sure - then they certainly could have also brought it to Norway.

Thanks for that information, Mike (and Authun, who is usually good for some nuggets).
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« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2009, 10:34:54 AM »

Yes, it seems quite likely
The only problem we have to solve if Beaker was L-21
or P-312* was Beaker and L-21 Hallstatt (and U-152 La Tene)

I would argue L-21 for Hallstatt, because:
1. nearly 2000 years difference between Q-Celts (L21) and P-Celts (U-152) would be too much considering the closeness of the languages
2. Beaker folk had a distinctive cranial type which is not very common in the British Isles, so if L-21 was Beaker, most of Irish-Scottish population should look like them, even if we think on mixture and females.

L-21 could have reached Norway in Hallstatt times as well, as the Denmark/Skagerrak area get the Iron usage from Hallstatt/La Tene. The presence of Cimbri in Jutland also supposes Celtic presence there.
There is a possibility that Germanic languages were a result of an admixture of Celtic elite on pre-German locals (I1, I2b, R1a), see on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis

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« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2009, 10:54:56 AM »

I am an R1b1b2a1b5b, m222.  Last name is Gartland.  My Great grandfather was from Ireland.

Some history of the Gartland name says it derived in Ireland from the Gernon name, which was from Normandy, via Norway ( the Rollo story)

However, mine is also the Niall of the Nine Hostages haplogroup.

Approximately 95% of the Gartlands in the US are of Irish ancestry, but almost all the rest are from Norway.  There is even a town in Norway called "Gartland".
 
Hopefully someone from the Norway Gartands will get tested to see if there is a match. 

Maybe old Niall just got around to Norway and left some descendants there, or maybe his ancestors were from Norway.

Frank
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« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2009, 11:38:10 AM »

Frankgart,

You may have something there with a Norwegian origin of your surname. Furthermore, do we actually know from where Niall came before Ireland? What does ancient Irish history say?
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« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2009, 11:41:37 AM »

L-21 could have reached Norway in Hallstatt times as well, as the Denmark/Skagerrak area get the Iron usage from Hallstatt/La Tene. The presence of Cimbri in Jutland also supposes Celtic presence there.
There is a possibility that Germanic languages were a result of an admixture of Celtic elite on pre-German locals (I1, I2b, R1a), see on this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_substrate_hypothesis



This was exactly what I said previously on other forums. To me it's common sense that L21 could have entered Southern Norway via the Skagerrak - not much distance to traverse.

Although I doubt a uniquely Celtic presence in Denmark, we do have L21 in Southern Sweden and Denmark. Southern Sweden is Geatish country, by the way.
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« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2009, 07:55:57 PM »

Interesting.  A few days ago, on another forum, I had proposed a possible Scandinavian origin for the Niall & Scots lineages (2000-3000 years ago) as an alternate explanation of the GD from some our Norwegian L21 guys to the M222+ cluster, against the medieval scottish migrant / monk theory.

"Moonshadao" had replied:
Tuatha Dé Danann

The Lia Fáil (Irish for Stone of Destiny) is a standing stone at the Inauguration Mound (Irish: an Forrad) on the Hill of Tara in County Meath in Ireland, which served as the coronation stone for the High Kings of Ireland. In legend, all of the kings of Ireland were crowned on the stone up to Muirchertach mac Ercae c. AD 500.

In Celtic mythology, the Lia Fáil is said to have been brought to Ireland in antiquity by the semi-divine race known as the Tuatha Dé Danann. The Tuatha Dé Danann had travelled to the "Northern Isles" (Geoffrey Keating identifies this with Norway) where they learned many skills and magic in its four cities Fáilias, Gorias, Murias and Finias. From there they proceeded to the north of Scotland, bringing with them a treasure from each city - the four legendary treasures of Ireland. From Fáilias came Lia Fáil "the Stone of Fál"; also called the Stone of Destiny (Latin: Saxum fatale). The other three treasures are the Claíomh Solais, the Spear of Lugh and The Dagda’s Cauldron.

However I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to Irish folklore and mythology, so I couldn't comment.
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« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2009, 08:57:06 PM »

That is interesting. I believe the archaeology supports movement coming into Ireland from the northeast. Alan Reilly asserts that.

A trek from Norway to Northern Scotland, and further to Northern Ireland would support this, wouldn't it? The invaders would have carried mostly L21 and the M222 subclade into Ireland.

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« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2009, 10:08:24 PM »

Interesting.  A few days ago, on another forum, I had proposed a possible Scandinavian origin for the Niall & Scots lineages (2000-3000 years ago) as an alternate explanation of the GD from some our Norwegian L21 guys to the M222+ cluster, against the medieval scottish migrant / monk theory.

"Moonshadao" had replied:
Tuatha Dé Danann

The Lia Fáil (Irish for Stone of Destiny) is a standing stone at the Inauguration Mound (Irish: an Forrad) on the Hill of Tara in County Meath in Ireland, which served as the coronation stone for the High Kings of Ireland. In legend, all of the kings of Ireland were crowned on the stone up to Muirchertach mac Ercae c. AD 500.
In Celtic mythology, the Lia Fáil is said to have been brought to Ireland in antiquity by the semi-divine race known as the Tuatha Dé Danann. The Tuatha Dé Danann had travelled to the "Northern Isles".....

However I'm absolutely clueless when it comes to Irish folklore and mythology, so I couldn't comment.
I'd be careful about all of the interpretations of legends.  I think they are more circumspect than the legends themselves.   I just read a book that was certain that the Tuatha Dé Danann were Phoencians.  I've read another that is certain the Fir Bolg are "Bag men", or men who wore bags... in other words, pants.  Those people were the Belgae, so the Fir Bolg are the Belgae.   Who knows? could be.
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« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2009, 12:33:42 AM »

Quote
I just read a book that was certain that the Tuatha Dé Danann were Phoencians. 

That's a lot of L21 Phoenicians.

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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2009, 03:27:33 AM »

I dont think L21 can originate from Norway. If we support a migration theory, it could have been only from Ireland to Norway, because:
1. R1a is very low in Ireland and originate from Viking times. If L-21 came from there, they should have brought some R1a as well which is not the case... (In Norway, there are more R1a than L-21, while Ireland is overwhelmingly L-21)
The same argument goes for I1.
2. Norway was populated later than Ireland from the South.

However, I think the third option is valid, that Niall's ancestor and Norwegian L-21 both originated on the Middle Rhine area, and were carried to Ireland by proto-Q-Celts and to Norway by proto-Germans, respectively.
(Unless you match more than 60 STRs out of 67)
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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