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Author Topic: Kipchak tribesman from Kazakhstan R-U152+ L2+  (Read 2787 times)
Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« on: December 24, 2008, 03:03:39 AM »

David Faux is already trying to make a make a Kipchak tribesman from Kazakhstan La Tene Celtic.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1230092636

Kazakhstan is part of ancient Scythia. We need more than one result, but La Tene Celtic? I don't believe that outlandish analysis.

Scythia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia

Glenn Allen Nolen
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2008, 06:29:53 PM »

I am enjoying him jump through hoops to make any U152 a descendant of La Tene Celts. I wonder how he explained the U152 in Sardinia.
Personally I don't see a great deal of difference between Faux's attempts to make all U152 Celtic and that of some others to make all P312 Celtic.
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rms2
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2008, 09:29:41 AM »

I am enjoying him jump through hoops to make any U152 a descendant of La Tene Celts. I wonder how he explained the U152 in Sardinia.
Personally I don't see a great deal of difference between Faux's attempts to make all U152 Celtic and that of some others to make all P312 Celtic.

He makes an exception to that when U152 crosses the Channel into Britain. There it's "Angle" or "Viking." And it's "Viking" in the three or four U152s who have been found in Scandinavia, too.

Everywhere else it's Celtic!

Who is trying to say that all P312 is Celtic?

There are some who will jump through hoops to try to avoid being Celtic, too, you know.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 11:50:02 AM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2008, 07:55:39 PM »

I am enjoying him jump through hoops to make any U152 a descendant of La Tene Celts. I wonder how he explained the U152 in Sardinia.
Personally I don't see a great deal of difference between Faux's attempts to make all U152 Celtic and that of some others to make all P312 Celtic.

He makes an exception to that when U152 crosses the Channel into Britain. There it's "Angle" or "Viking." And it's "Viking" in the three or four U152s who have been found in Scandinavia, too.

Everywhere else it's Celtic!

Who is trying to say that all P312 is Celtic?

There are some who will jump through hoops to try to avoid being Celtic, too, you know.


There is hardly a day that goes by that I don't read someone trying to explain how any P312 found outside areas traditionally associated with the Celts can be explained as Celtic. Even Alan the archaeologist has a tendency to see things in this light as well, though he now seems to be moderating that view. I do think though that most people, when pressed, will at least admit the possibility of the existence of a non-Celtic P312.
If your last comment is directed at me, I absolutely deny it. I don't think pointing out that that P312 appears to be as common in Denmark as U106, and that it is nearly impossible to explain this as a Celtic contribution, constitutes jumping through hoops. I have consistently argued against the over easy identification of subclades with archaeological cultures.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2008, 08:48:40 AM »

I think it's hard to avoid the conclusion that P312 is mostly Celtic, though it would be silly to think there is some kind of one-to-one correspondence.

I don't know who is saying P312=Celtic, however. I just haven't seen that.

You did compare DKF's U152 antics to those who see some connection between P312 and the Celts, so it is only fair to bring up the other side of the coin, the fact that some people don't want P312, at least in their own cases, to have much of a Celtic connection at all.

On a slightly different subject, I have the suspicion that some, and I am NOT talking about you, want L21 to be the Celtic subclade in Britain - especially if they can claim it originated there - because it gets them off the Celtic hook and frees them to be the descendants of those they regard as the "winners": the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, etc. Some, like DKF, want L21 to be "aboriginal" in Britain, I think, for that very reason.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 09:47:37 AM by rms2 » Logged

Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2008, 08:27:33 PM »

“I am enjoying him jump through hoops to make any U152 a descendant of La Tene Celts. I wonder how he explained the U152 in Sardinia. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference between Faux's attempts to make all U152 Celtic and that of some others to make all P312 Celtic.”

Many people in this industry have agendas. I do not understand it either. Why even bother doing genetic genealogy (professional or amateur) with preconceived bias? My research page clearly states the migration of R-U152. And it has for sometime!

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

“If not from Central Italy, it migrated from the east (Scythia)”

R-P312 could be Proto almost every culture in downstream Western Europe.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2008, 04:11:17 PM »

“I am enjoying him jump through hoops to make any U152 a descendant of La Tene Celts. I wonder how he explained the U152 in Sardinia. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference between Faux's attempts to make all U152 Celtic and that of some others to make all P312 Celtic.”

Many people in this industry have agendas. I do not understand it either. Why even bother doing genetic genealogy (professional or amateur) with preconceived bias? My research page clearly states the migration of R-U152. And it has for sometime!

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

“If not from Central Italy, it migrated from the east (Scythia)”

R-P312 could be Proto almost every culture in downstream Western Europe.
I certainly think we have to keep open the scenario proposed in your last statement, though some perhaps may impune my motives. Everytime a new R1b SNP is discovered, there is a rush to identify it with some particular tribe or culture. I think this is a natural tendency. But some people rush to judgement to make identifications, and then their ego becomes involved, and they become very reluctant to admit they were too hasty. They then have to explain any new "unexpected results" in unlikely ways that will uphold their initial assumptions. Any migration must be explained as comparatively recent in order to preserve the initial identification. I could list a number of examples, but it would only offend those who proposed them.
I think we should keep an open mind to all possibilities and see where the data takes us. No one has any idea at this time whether U152 is common in Kazahkstan or not. But to decide what it must be or where it must have arisen based on one result is in my opinion counterproductive.
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Oisin
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2008, 05:01:35 PM »

David Faux is already trying to make a make a Kipchak tribesman from Kazakhstan La Tene Celtic.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1230092636

Kazakhstan is part of ancient Scythia. We need more than one result, but La Tene Celtic? I don't believe that outlandish analysis.

Scythia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia

Glenn Allen Nolen

According to the "Book of Invasions"the Nemedians came to Ireland from Scythia 4000 years ago and the Fir Bolg were said to be descended from them.I dont know whether you would say they were Celtic but there are people descended from them in Ireland today.You can look it up on the web.Its nice to know that a lot of people would like to be Celtic.We are becoming very popular.
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rms2
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2008, 05:32:58 PM »

“I am enjoying him jump through hoops to make any U152 a descendant of La Tene Celts. I wonder how he explained the U152 in Sardinia. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference between Faux's attempts to make all U152 Celtic and that of some others to make all P312 Celtic.”

Many people in this industry have agendas. I do not understand it either. Why even bother doing genetic genealogy (professional or amateur) with preconceived bias? My research page clearly states the migration of R-U152. And it has for sometime!

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

“If not from Central Italy, it migrated from the east (Scythia)”

R-P312 could be Proto almost every culture in downstream Western Europe.
I certainly think we have to keep open the scenario proposed in your last statement, though some perhaps may impune my motives. Everytime a new R1b SNP is discovered, there is a rush to identify it with some particular tribe or culture. I think this is a natural tendency. But some people rush to judgement to make identifications, and then their ego becomes involved, and they become very reluctant to admit they were too hasty. They then have to explain any new "unexpected results" in unlikely ways that will uphold their initial assumptions. Any migration must be explained as comparatively recent in order to preserve the initial identification. I could list a number of examples, but it would only offend those who proposed them.
I think we should keep an open mind to all possibilities and see where the data takes us. No one has any idea at this time whether U152 is common in Kazahkstan or not. But to decide what it must be or where it must have arisen based on one result is in my opinion counterproductive.

No one is impugning your motives, but when you draw a parallel between Faux's U152-La-Tene-Celt antics and the ideas of those who see some connection between P312 and the Celts, you don't really expect that to go unanswered, do you?

Speculation about the origin of this or that subclade is part of the fun of genetic genealogy. We all know (I think we do, anyway) we could be wrong and that every ethnographic idea is fuzzy around the edges, where there was a lot of mixing and moving and there are no hard and fast rules about who was what.

But it is possible to speak in general terms about haplogroups, their subclades, their geographic groupings and possible ethnic or tribal associations.

If it isn't, then the whole "Deep Ancestry" thing is a colossal waste of time and money.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2008, 10:37:20 PM »

“I am enjoying him jump through hoops to make any U152 a descendant of La Tene Celts. I wonder how he explained the U152 in Sardinia. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference between Faux's attempts to make all U152 Celtic and that of some others to make all P312 Celtic.”

Many people in this industry have agendas. I do not understand it either. Why even bother doing genetic genealogy (professional or amateur) with preconceived bias? My research page clearly states the migration of R-U152. And it has for sometime!

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

“If not from Central Italy, it migrated from the east (Scythia)”

R-P312 could be Proto almost every culture in downstream Western Europe.
I certainly think we have to keep open the scenario proposed in your last statement, though some perhaps may impune my motives. Everytime a new R1b SNP is discovered, there is a rush to identify it with some particular tribe or culture. I think this is a natural tendency. But some people rush to judgement to make identifications, and then their ego becomes involved, and they become very reluctant to admit they were too hasty. They then have to explain any new "unexpected results" in unlikely ways that will uphold their initial assumptions. Any migration must be explained as comparatively recent in order to preserve the initial identification. I could list a number of examples, but it would only offend those who proposed them.
I think we should keep an open mind to all possibilities and see where the data takes us. No one has any idea at this time whether U152 is common in Kazahkstan or not. But to decide what it must be or where it must have arisen based on one result is in my opinion counterproductive.

No one is impugning your motives, but when you draw a parallel between Faux's U152-La-Tene-Celt antics and the ideas of those who see some connection between P312 and the Celts, you don't really expect that to go unanswered, do you?

Speculation about the origin of this or that subclade is part of the fun of genetic genealogy. We all know (I think we do, anyway) we could be wrong and that every ethnographic idea is fuzzy around the edges, where there was a lot of mixing and moving and there are no hard and fast rules about who was what.

But it is possible to speak in general terms about haplogroups, their subclades, their geographic groupings and possible ethnic or tribal associations.

If it isn't, then the whole "Deep Ancestry" thing is a colossal waste of time and money.
I don't see a great deal of difference between some of Faux's suggestions on "unexpected" U152 results and trying to explain P312 or L21 in Scandinavia as solely the result of wandering Irish monks, 16th century mercenaries, etc.
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rms2
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 03:27:44 PM »

I don't see a great deal of difference between some of Faux's suggestions on "unexpected" U152 results and trying to explain P312 or L21 in Scandinavia as solely the result of wandering Irish monks, 16th century mercenaries, etc.

Well, that is exactly what Faux does.

I think P312 is bigger than the Celts and predates them, the Germans, and the other western ethnic, tribal and linguistic groups.

But I don't think it predates them by much, and it seems to me P312 is probably mostly Celtic.

L21 is too new to say much yet. (Actually, P312 is really too new to say much with confidence.) L21 does seem to be very frequent in the traditional "Celtic" areas of Britain and Western Europe, but it too might broaden out as more results come in.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 03:28:40 PM by rms2 » Logged

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