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rms2
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« on: December 23, 2008, 11:44:48 PM »

Here they are (map and category changes have already been made):

L21-
Agostino (Southern Italy)
Metcalf (England)
Greber (German from Russia)
Meek (Ireland)
Groetaers (Belgium)
Mitchell (Scotland)
Eriksmoen (Norway)
 
L21+
Montanez (Puerto Rico)
Nilssen (Norway)
Dever (Ireland)
Gilroy (Ireland)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 12:09:46 AM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2008, 12:31:17 AM »

Here they are (map and category changes have already been made):

L21-
Agostino (Southern Italy)
Metcalf (England)
Greber (German from Russia)
Meek (Ireland)
Groetaers (Belgium)
Mitchell (Scotland)
Eriksmoen (Norway)
 
L21+
Montanez (Puerto Rico)
Nilssen (Norway)
Dever (Ireland)
Gilroy (Ireland)
I look forward to hearing those who want to restrict L21 to the British Isles argue that Puerto Rio and Norway were both standard places for migration from Ireland.
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didier
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2008, 01:26:34 AM »

It seems  Ireland had very active monks.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 01:27:06 AM by didier » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2008, 08:30:30 AM »

It seems  Ireland had very active monks.

So far, ten Scandinavians (I'm including our Finn among the Scandinavians) have been tested for L21, and four of them are L21+, three in Norway and one in Sweden.

In Norway, three out of the four L21 tests have been L21+.

Those are small numbers, but L21 seems to be far more frequent in Scandinavia than it is in Iberia, for example.

I ran the surname Montanez in the World Names Profiler. It's found all over Spain, but, interestingly, it is fairly frequent in Galicia. But since Montanez does not yet have a paper tail out of the New World, it's all just academic, I'm afraid.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 08:36:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2008, 10:05:28 AM »

Montanez' (JZBVJ) closest matches at 37 markers are Scots, Irish, and an American with the Welsh surname, Griffith.

He doesn't have any real close matches at 67 markers.
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chris1
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2008, 01:02:23 PM »

It seems  Ireland had very active monks.

So far, ten Scandinavians (I'm including our Finn among the Scandinavians) have been tested for L21, and four of them are L21+, three in Norway and one in Sweden.

In Norway, three out of the four L21 tests have been L21+.

Those are small numbers, but L21 seems to be far more frequent in Scandinavia than it is in Iberia, for example.

Two of the Norwegians, 8EQYZ and V3228 are only GD of 8 out of 67 from each other. The 3rd Norwegian L21+ man is a member of the 'Scots R1b' cluster (which is L21+) The Swedish man, NSP69, looks to be a member of the 'Scot R1b' cluster too.

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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2008, 01:10:09 PM »

It seems  Ireland had very active monks.

So far, ten Scandinavians (I'm including our Finn among the Scandinavians) have been tested for L21, and four of them are L21+, three in Norway and one in Sweden.

In Norway, three out of the four L21 tests have been L21+.

Those are small numbers, but L21 seems to be far more frequent in Scandinavia than it is in Iberia, for example.

Two of the Norwegians, 8EQYZ and V3228 are only GD of 8 out of 67 from each other. The 3rd Norwegian L21+ man is a member of the 'Scots R1b' cluster (which is L21+) The Swedish man, NSP69, looks to be a member of the 'Scot R1b' cluster too.

Yeah, I have heard that info, and I was aware that Igland and Nilssen (who are not in the Scots cluster) are 59/67 haplotype neighbors. Their most distant y ancestors also both came from not too far from Bergen, which had a rather large contingent of German sailors and merchants during the Hanseatic period.

The Norwegian Ausland (VVCYQ) is 5 off the "Scots Modal" I have (UZ2MM) at 63 markers. The Swede, Erickson (NSP69), is 6 off it at 61 markers.

I'm not convinced by that that they are both the descendants of wayward Scots. But perhaps you used a different "Scot R1b" modal?

« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 01:18:12 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2008, 01:49:48 PM »

It seems  Ireland had very active monks.

So far, ten Scandinavians (I'm including our Finn among the Scandinavians) have been tested for L21, and four of them are L21+, three in Norway and one in Sweden.

In Norway, three out of the four L21 tests have been L21+.

Those are small numbers, but L21 seems to be far more frequent in Scandinavia than it is in Iberia, for example.

Two of the Norwegians, 8EQYZ and V3228 are only GD of 8 out of 67 from each other. The 3rd Norwegian L21+ man is a member of the 'Scots R1b' cluster (which is L21+) The Swedish man, NSP69, looks to be a member of the 'Scot R1b' cluster too.

Yeah, I have heard that info, and I was aware that Igland and Nilssen (who are not in the Scots cluster) are 59/67 haplotype neighbors. Their most distant y ancestors also both came from not too far from Bergen, which had a rather large contingent of German sailors and merchants during the Hanseatic period.

The Norwegian Ausland (VVCYQ) is 5 off the "Scots Modal" I have (UZ2MM) at 63 markers. The Swede, Erickson (NSP69), is 6 off it at 61 markers.

I'm not convinced by that that they are both the descendants of wayward Scots. But perhaps you used a different "Scot R1b" modal?




I did not mean for the above to sound argumentative. Sorry if it did.
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chris1
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2008, 01:54:51 PM »

It seems  Ireland had very active monks.

So far, ten Scandinavians (I'm including our Finn among the Scandinavians) have been tested for L21, and four of them are L21+, three in Norway and one in Sweden.

In Norway, three out of the four L21 tests have been L21+.

Those are small numbers, but L21 seems to be far more frequent in Scandinavia than it is in Iberia, for example.

Two of the Norwegians, 8EQYZ and V3228 are only GD of 8 out of 67 from each other. The 3rd Norwegian L21+ man is a member of the 'Scots R1b' cluster (which is L21+) The Swedish man, NSP69, looks to be a member of the 'Scot R1b' cluster too.

Yeah, I have heard that info, and I was aware that Igland and Nilssen (who are not in the Scots cluster) are 59/67 haplotype neighbors. Their most distant y ancestors also both came from not too far from Bergen, which had a rather large contingent of German sailors and merchants during the Hanseatic period.

The Norwegian Ausland (VVCYQ) is 5 off the "Scots Modal" I have (UZ2MM) at 63 markers. The Swede, Erickson (NSP69), is 6 off it at 61 markers.

I'm not convinced by that that they are both the descendants of wayward Scots. But perhaps you used a different "Scot R1b" modal?



To quote Pat Tagart's recent post on the Rootsweb DNA list (he's a researcher of Scots R1b),

"Two of the three L21+ are close matches to the R1b Scots Modal at 67 markers. They are the only Scandinavian surname high resolution haplotypes that match the R1b Scots Modal, one from Norway & one from Sweden."

"From a historical perspective, there are substantial historical references to Galloglas mercenaries in Sweden in recent centuries."

Full post here:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1229543988

Regarding the 'Scots R1b' haplotype he estimates; "The current ratio is about 300 Scottish/British surnames with this haplotype for every one that is not of north British origin."

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rms2
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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2008, 09:32:04 AM »

It seems  Ireland had very active monks.

So far, ten Scandinavians (I'm including our Finn among the Scandinavians) have been tested for L21, and four of them are L21+, three in Norway and one in Sweden.

In Norway, three out of the four L21 tests have been L21+.

Those are small numbers, but L21 seems to be far more frequent in Scandinavia than it is in Iberia, for example.

Two of the Norwegians, 8EQYZ and V3228 are only GD of 8 out of 67 from each other. The 3rd Norwegian L21+ man is a member of the 'Scots R1b' cluster (which is L21+) The Swedish man, NSP69, looks to be a member of the 'Scot R1b' cluster too.

Yeah, I have heard that info, and I was aware that Igland and Nilssen (who are not in the Scots cluster) are 59/67 haplotype neighbors. Their most distant y ancestors also both came from not too far from Bergen, which had a rather large contingent of German sailors and merchants during the Hanseatic period.

The Norwegian Ausland (VVCYQ) is 5 off the "Scots Modal" I have (UZ2MM) at 63 markers. The Swede, Erickson (NSP69), is 6 off it at 61 markers.

I'm not convinced by that that they are both the descendants of wayward Scots. But perhaps you used a different "Scot R1b" modal?



To quote Pat Tagart's recent post on the Rootsweb DNA list (he's a researcher of Scots R1b),

"Two of the three L21+ are close matches to the R1b Scots Modal at 67 markers. They are the only Scandinavian surname high resolution haplotypes that match the R1b Scots Modal, one from Norway & one from Sweden."

"From a historical perspective, there are substantial historical references to Galloglas mercenaries in Sweden in recent centuries."

Full post here:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1229543988

Regarding the 'Scots R1b' haplotype he estimates; "The current ratio is about 300 Scottish/British surnames with this haplotype for every one that is not of north British origin."



I read his post when he first posted it.

I think there is a tendency to try to fit every result into some pre-formed explanation. To my mind, those two Scandinavians are far enough off the Scots Modal to warrant a great deal of doubt.
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2008, 07:04:49 PM »

The movement of Scottish mercenary soldiers into Scandinavia and even northern Germany from the 15/16th centuries is well attested, though I doubt it is going to amount to a significant portion of the Scandinavian population, which it is looking like the situation with L21 there. Secondly, this occurred long after the adoption of surnames, and most of the settlers kept their Scottish names, which is why in the 20th century there is a Count Hamilton in Sweden and officers in the Prussian Death's Head Hussar regiment with the surname Douglas.
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2008, 07:39:50 PM »

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of Scandinavians doing dna testing, at least as far as I can tell. We have one in the project still awaiting Deep Clade-R and L21 results, Christopherson (W9TNF), whose ancestor came from way up north in Marskard, Norway.

He is an exact 37-marker match for Ellefsen (MAAN7), also of Norway, who is R-P312 (x M153, M222, SRY2627, U152) but who has not ordered the L21 test yet.

Christopherson's L21 result will give us a big indication of how Ellefsen's will go (if he ever orders L21, that is).
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 07:40:28 PM by rms2 » Logged

chris1
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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 07:03:31 AM »

It seems  Ireland had very active monks.

So far, ten Scandinavians (I'm including our Finn among the Scandinavians) have been tested for L21, and four of them are L21+, three in Norway and one in Sweden.

In Norway, three out of the four L21 tests have been L21+.

Those are small numbers, but L21 seems to be far more frequent in Scandinavia than it is in Iberia, for example.

Two of the Norwegians, 8EQYZ and V3228 are only GD of 8 out of 67 from each other. The 3rd Norwegian L21+ man is a member of the 'Scots R1b' cluster (which is L21+) The Swedish man, NSP69, looks to be a member of the 'Scot R1b' cluster too.

Yeah, I have heard that info, and I was aware that Igland and Nilssen (who are not in the Scots cluster) are 59/67 haplotype neighbors. Their most distant y ancestors also both came from not too far from Bergen, which had a rather large contingent of German sailors and merchants during the Hanseatic period.

The Norwegian Ausland (VVCYQ) is 5 off the "Scots Modal" I have (UZ2MM) at 63 markers. The Swede, Erickson (NSP69), is 6 off it at 61 markers.

I'm not convinced by that that they are both the descendants of wayward Scots. But perhaps you used a different "Scot R1b" modal?



To quote Pat Tagart's recent post on the Rootsweb DNA list (he's a researcher of Scots R1b),

"Two of the three L21+ are close matches to the R1b Scots Modal at 67 markers. They are the only Scandinavian surname high resolution haplotypes that match the R1b Scots Modal, one from Norway & one from Sweden."

"From a historical perspective, there are substantial historical references to Galloglas mercenaries in Sweden in recent centuries."

Full post here:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1229543988

Regarding the 'Scots R1b' haplotype he estimates; "The current ratio is about 300 Scottish/British surnames with this haplotype for every one that is not of north British origin."



I read his post when he first posted it.

I think there is a tendency to try to fit every result into some pre-formed explanation. To my mind, those two Scandinavians are far enough off the Scots Modal to warrant a great deal of doubt.

I don't think so, although I agree some may be jumping to pre-formed explanations/stances. The situation with the L21+ Scandinavians so far (the 4 in question) seems more straightforward, I have some experience with the Scots cluster. The Norwegian, Moen (VVCYQ) in particular is a fairly unambiguous member of Scots R1b, look at his close matches on YSearch. STR cluster modals discovered by Ken Nordtvedt a few years ago help identify the Scots cluster. Maybe some less British Isles looking L21+ will turn up in Scandinavia in future, who knows. I'm not saying it couldn't have travelled to Scotland from Scandinavia, anythings possible.

However, there are hundreds of STR tested Scots R1b and about a dozen of them have also all tested L21+ so far. If Pat believes the two Scandinavians are Scots R1b that's good enough for me, he's been studying it for long enough. Also Scots R1b, along with M222, is one of the most localized and easily identifiable L21+ clusters. It appears to be possibly a little older than M222.

Am I missing something, or is there a reluctance now to go for the common sense approach since the L21 split?

Here is a map of Scots R1b I came across recently. It hasn't been updated for a while but it shows its distribution well enough. You'll see Moen (VVCYQ) on the map in Norway.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?client=safari&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=112591812956221774645.000457bbf290d56ec7c99&z=5
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chris1
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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2008, 07:07:31 AM »

The movement of Scottish mercenary soldiers into Scandinavia and even northern Germany from the 15/16th centuries is well attested, though I doubt it is going to amount to a significant portion of the Scandinavian population, which it is looking like the situation with L21 there. Secondly, this occurred long after the adoption of surnames, and most of the settlers kept their Scottish names, which is why in the 20th century there is a Count Hamilton in Sweden and officers in the Prussian Death's Head Hussar regiment with the surname Douglas.

There are other contacts with Norway. Even today Scottish trawlers shelter in Bergen in bad weather. I believe patronyms were used until fairly recently in Scandinavia. The Scottish surname wouldn't survive after a couple of generations.
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2008, 08:44:26 AM »

Am I missing something, or is there a reluctance now to go for the common sense approach since the L21 split?

I think you're missing something, and it's nice of you to label your own opinions the "common sense approach."

While it is possible that the two Norwegians to whom you refer are the descendants of Scots, it is also possible there is another reason why they approach, within a gd of 5 and 6 at 60 or so markers, the Scots Modal. I'm not saying those Norwegians aren't the descendants of Scots. But I don't think we ought to conclude that they are merely because of their inexact resemblance to a rather WAMHish modal and because we've already decided that all L21 has its roots in the British Isles and must be explained in those terms.

Here is something from the same Rootsweb thread in which Pat announced his "Scots Modal' news, something that sounds like real common sense to me:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1229556672

Quote
Indeed, I must emphasize that continual attempts to "pre-explain" any
"unexpected" data have a strong negative effect on the reporting of test
results and even the ordering of the tests themselves.

Why should participants bother reporting their test results, when someone
already has a rickety "pre-explanation" for all data that disagrees with his
hypothesis? In fact, why should participants even bother ordering the
tests, when their results will be treated so lightly by commentators?

« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 09:15:06 AM by rms2 » Logged

chris1
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« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2008, 12:52:25 PM »

Am I missing something, or is there a reluctance now to go for the common sense approach since the L21 split?

I think you're missing something, and it's nice of you to label your own opinions the "common sense approach."

While it is possible that the two Norwegians to whom you refer are the descendants of Scots, it is also possible there is another reason why they approach, within a gd of 5 and 6 at 60 or so markers, the Scots Modal. I'm not saying those Norwegians aren't the descendants of Scots. But I don't think we ought to conclude that they are merely because of their inexact resemblance to a rather WAMHish modal and because we've already decided that all L21 has its roots in the British Isles and must be explained in those terms.

Here is something from the same Rootsweb thread in which Pat announced his "Scots Modal' news, something that sounds like real common sense to me:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1229556672

Quote
Indeed, I must emphasize that continual attempts to "pre-explain" any
"unexpected" data have a strong negative effect on the reporting of test
results and even the ordering of the tests themselves.

Why should participants bother reporting their test results, when someone
already has a rickety "pre-explanation" for all data that disagrees with his
hypothesis? In fact, why should participants even bother ordering the
tests, when their results will be treated so lightly by commentators?


I'm definitely no self-proclaimed common sense expert :) just got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning and reacted to reading your two line dismissals of the possible Scots R1b results. I don't really get the emotive issues that are involved, everyone's equal. I hoped the information was relevant to the thread and of interest. This Celt/non-Celt L21 business is becoming a prickly side of the hobby that could easily be bogus, there's only a rizla papers difference between L21+/-. Everyone is entitled to a pet theory, I'm sure it won't put anyone off testing, it should be all part of the fun.
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rms2
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2008, 12:59:28 PM »

Am I missing something, or is there a reluctance now to go for the common sense approach since the L21 split?

I think you're missing something, and it's nice of you to label your own opinions the "common sense approach."

While it is possible that the two Norwegians to whom you refer are the descendants of Scots, it is also possible there is another reason why they approach, within a gd of 5 and 6 at 60 or so markers, the Scots Modal. I'm not saying those Norwegians aren't the descendants of Scots. But I don't think we ought to conclude that they are merely because of their inexact resemblance to a rather WAMHish modal and because we've already decided that all L21 has its roots in the British Isles and must be explained in those terms.

Here is something from the same Rootsweb thread in which Pat announced his "Scots Modal' news, something that sounds like real common sense to me:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1229556672

Quote
Indeed, I must emphasize that continual attempts to "pre-explain" any
"unexpected" data have a strong negative effect on the reporting of test
results and even the ordering of the tests themselves.

Why should participants bother reporting their test results, when someone
already has a rickety "pre-explanation" for all data that disagrees with his
hypothesis? In fact, why should participants even bother ordering the
tests, when their results will be treated so lightly by commentators?


I'm definitely no self-proclaimed common sense expert :) just got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning and reacted to reading your two line dismissals of the possible Scots R1b results. I don't really get the emotive issues that are involved, everyone's equal. I hoped the information was relevant to the thread and of interest. This Celt/non-Celt L21 business is becoming a prickly side of the hobby that could easily be bogus, there's only a rizla papers difference between L21+/-. Everyone is entitled to a pet theory, I'm sure it won't put anyone off testing, it should be all part of the fun.


I agree. And it could turn out that all the Scandinavian L21+ came from someplace outside Scandinavia; I don't know. Best to be open to anything.
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« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2008, 04:33:03 PM »

Another possible explanation is that the Scots modal and the Scandinavians who match it share a common ancestor before their settlement in Scotland.
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rms2
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« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2008, 09:46:40 AM »

Another possible explanation is that the Scots modal and the Scandinavians who match it share a common ancestor before their settlement in Scotland.

Well, to be quite honest, that's what I believe is the case.

It strikes me as more than passing strange that the first couple of months of L21 testing would flush out of the Continent so many supposed descendants of errant Brits.

Three out of four Norwegians tested thus far are L21+. What are the odds that we would just happen to hit on the descendants of British expatriates in Norway?

I find the whole "out-of-the-Isles" story unconvincing for the same reason.
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chris1
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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2008, 11:28:29 AM »

Another possible explanation is that the Scots modal and the Scandinavians who match it share a common ancestor before their settlement in Scotland.

Well, to be quite honest, that's what I believe is the case.

It strikes me as more than passing strange that the first couple of months of L21 testing would flush out of the Continent so many supposed descendants of errant Brits.

Three out of four Norwegians tested thus far are L21+. What are the odds that we would just happen to hit on the descendants of British expatriates in Norway?

I find the whole "out-of-the-Isles" story unconvincing for the same reason.

I've looked at various scenarios in the past. One idea would be that most Scots Highland Clans were relatively recent immigrants to Scotland with the Vikings. But I now think the Dal Riada origin myth of (L21+?) Scots from Ireland invading Argyll might be nearer the mark. Variations of Scots R1b are the Y-DNA of many of the Scottish clan chiefs, by the way, all their legendary history points to a Scotti/Dal Riada origin.

It would be clearer to see what might be happening when more results arrive. The reason I'm wary of the present Scandinavian results signifying much about Scots R1b origin in that they may not be representative of the numbers present in the general population. In Scotland Scots R1b is found in about 15% of the population. The two Scandinavian Scots R1b are likely to have known they are Scots R1b (there are big Scottish clan studies of this modal) and tested L21 to confirm whether they match the other Scottish L21+ members of the cluster, which they do. Time will tell, as they say.
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« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2008, 12:01:42 PM »

Its a well known fact that the Northern Irish people and the Scottish are close relatives.My ancestors are Irish as far back as the paper trail goes and I have a lot of  matches with the Scots.I think some people are becoming obsessed with the origins of haplogroups.The important thing for me is to find matches with other people of the same surname and hope they are in the same clade.
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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2008, 02:20:58 PM »

Another possible explanation is that the Scots modal and the Scandinavians who match it share a common ancestor before their settlement in Scotland.

Well, to be quite honest, that's what I believe is the case.

It strikes me as more than passing strange that the first couple of months of L21 testing would flush out of the Continent so many supposed descendants of errant Brits.

Three out of four Norwegians tested thus far are L21+. What are the odds that we would just happen to hit on the descendants of British expatriates in Norway?

I find the whole "out-of-the-Isles" story unconvincing for the same reason.

I've looked at various scenarios in the past. One idea would be that most Scots Highland Clans were relatively recent immigrants to Scotland with the Vikings. But I now think the Dal Riada origin myth of (L21+?) Scots from Ireland invading Argyll might be nearer the mark. Variations of Scots R1b are the Y-DNA of many of the Scottish clan chiefs, by the way, all their legendary history points to a Scotti/Dal Riada origin.

It would be clearer to see what might be happening when more results arrive. The reason I'm wary of the present Scandinavian results signifying much about Scots R1b origin in that they may not be representative of the numbers present in the general population. In Scotland Scots R1b is found in about 15% of the population. The two Scandinavian Scots R1b are likely to have known they are Scots R1b (there are big Scottish clan studies of this modal) and tested L21 to confirm whether they match the other Scottish L21+ members of the cluster, which they do. Time will tell, as they say.


I wouldn't call those two Scandinavians "R1b Scots" based on their being within 5 to 6 of a very WAMHish modal haplotype at 60 or so markers.

But maybe I'm wrong.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 02:30:54 PM by rms2 » Logged

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