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rms2
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« on: December 21, 2008, 08:32:12 PM »

http://www.electric scotland. com/familytree/ magazine/ octnov2002/ celts.htm

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During World War II, a discovery was made that only recently has received meticulous research. A couple of doctors in medical centers in England noticed that there was a feature of Scots and Welsh soldiers wounded in battle that was not present with English, Germans, and other nationalities. The former frequently had a big toe (or great toe) that was the same length as the next toe; all others had great toes markedly longer. They marked that down for research after the war ended, but it was only a few years ago that definitive research was done that has led to a remarkable discovery. They found that there were burial sites across Britain where the skeletons were completely of one ethnic group, such as Celtic burial sites on islands along the Scottish northwest coast, and pre-Celtic burial sites in southern England. Results from studies of those burial sites showed that to a 95 probability Celtic remains had a big toe the same length as, or shorter than, the next toe, while pre-Celtic remains had a big toe longer than the one next to it. That study was expanded to cover burial sites in other parts of Europe and Asia, with the same results. Because the so-called Celtic toe can disappear after many generations of intermarriage, it is not a necessary condition to having a Celtic ancestor, but it is a sufficient one: if a person has the Celtic toe, he or she is almost certain to be of Celtic descent.

Notice what it says about Pre-Celtic skeletons (which I underlined). Also note that just because your big toe is longer than your next toe does not mean you don't have Celtic ancestors.

This is just something I thought might be interesting.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 08:34:56 PM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2008, 09:22:44 PM »

My big toe is longer than my other toes, and I'm pretty much all Celtic Autosomally. My dad was all Irish and my mom was half Scots/Irish and half French-Canadian. I believe each of them had big toes longer than the others as well. I remember this coming up on a forum last year and some people got really mad about it! Some people were adamant that if your big toe wasn't shorter, you just couldn't be a Celt! That was before the great "Dr." decided only RU152s were Celts.

Thanks,  Miles
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vtilroe
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 03:38:10 AM »

My big toes are longer, just like me dear ol' dad.  (We wear out a lot of socks!)  So I guess I'm not a celt, just like Miles. Or Miles is actually of dutch/belgic ancestry.  Who knows.  Whatever.
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secherbernard
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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 03:57:49 AM »

On my right foot, my big toe is the same length of the second one, but on my left foot, my big too is longer the second one. Sure i am half a celt ;-)
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 10:46:49 AM »

Guys, I just posted that for fun AND with a caveat about it not meaning all that much.

I do think there is something to it, but the main significance has to do with ancient skeletal remains. We're all a mixed bag now, and things change.
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Jdean
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 11:07:27 AM »

Well that's a relief, I was getting really worried that my second toe was too small.

Now what about that strange gap between my big toe and second that my forefathers evolved to accommodate Roman sandals, or was I  born with six toes as my father keeps telling me ?
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 03:55:16 PM »

We discussed this rather extensively on another forum. I would like to point out that the "celtic foot" had distinguishing characteristics other than toe length. One was a protrusion at the base of the big toe which frequently led to bunions when people of Celtic descent wore shoes designed to fit the English foot.
I once saw a BBC archaeology TV program where the podiatrist who is credited with making the discovery was consulted. She said it was necessary to look at differences in the interior bone structure of the feet in order to determine whether the skeletal remains were most likely Anglo-Saxons or native Britons.
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rms2
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 09:16:59 PM »

I don't know about the internal skeletal stuff - and I've never had bunions - but my second toes are a  bit longer than my big toes.

But most of the Greek and Roman statues I've seen are the same way.
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Jdean
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 04:48:15 PM »

There's a pretty good article on the Celtic Foot here

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=42

As it happens my father defiantly has the long second toe, mine is less certain.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 10:10:22 PM »

There's a pretty good article on the Celtic Foot here

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=42

As it happens my father defiantly has the long second toe, mine is less certain.

The article is written by the woman I mentioned above whom I saw on the British archaeology show who is consulted by archaeologists to identify sketeal foot remains as Anglo-Saxon or Celtic.
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didier
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2008, 01:39:07 AM »

I think that what is called "celtic" here is called "egyptian toes" in common language in France. I don't have this feature but I know people from southern France who do.
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Oisin
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2008, 08:36:31 PM »

My big toe is longer than my other toes, and I'm pretty much all Celtic Autosomally. My dad was all Irish and my mom was half Scots/Irish and half French-Canadian. I believe each of them had big toes longer than the others as well. I remember this coming up on a forum last year and some people got really mad about it! Some people were adamant that if your big toe wasn't shorter, you just couldn't be a Celt! That was before the great "Dr." decided only RU152s were Celts.

Thanks,  Miles

Im S21 and I have the Celtic Toes. This dna is a strange thing.I have read on several forums that we are supposed to be Germanic.Then again one cant believe all that they read!!
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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2008, 09:51:05 AM »

If you are U106+ (S21+), then your y-dna probably was supplied by a Germanic ancestor. But the y line is just one of many lines that went into making you who you are. If you are reading that U106 is mostly Germanic, you should probably believe what you read.

We have several African-Americans in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but who would try to argue their y-dna is African? Physically they look like African-Americans, but their y dna is European.

You could be mostly Celtic and yet have Germanic y dna.

I am R-L21*, yet I know of at least four I1 (old I1a) lines in my family tree.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 09:54:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

Oisin
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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2008, 11:45:00 AM »

How many Germans have tested positive for S21,S116,S145,S28 and M222?These haplogroups are found all over Europe.So who is putting the labels on them and why?
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2008, 02:30:06 PM »

How many Germans have tested positive for S21,S116,S145,S28 and M222?These haplogroups are found all over Europe.So who is putting the labels on them and why?

They are not "found all over Europe" in the same proportions. U106 (S21) is prevalent in Germanic areas. M222 has very very few continental European exemplars, and some of those have Irish surnames.

L21 is pretty new, so the jury is still out on that one.

But whatever makes you happy. I think I know who you are, and there is little point in arguing with you.

Make U106 whatever you wish it to be. Frankly, U106 isn't all that interesting to me anyway.

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