Irish R-P312 (x M153, M222, SRY2627, U152)

[rms2]

A new Irishman joined the project last night: surname Meek, from Ahoghill in County Antrim; Placemark 134 on the R-P312* Map at the link in my signature below.

No L21 test yet.

We have a boatload of Irishmen in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, as I am sure everyone knows.

So many of them are turning out to be L21+, however, that I hesitated to start this thread.

[GoldenHind]

I read elsewhere that only two Irish who are confirmed P312 have also tested L21-, and that one of the two has a Norman surname. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this statement, but I would be interested to know if it is true..

[rms2]

I know of at least two, Kenny and Mulvihill.

I'm not sure either of those names is Norman.

[GoldenHind]

I know of at least two, Kenny and Mulvihill.

I'm not sure either of those names is Norman.

Neither of those looks Norman to me either. I'm not sure who Alan W. had in mind when he made that observation.

[eochaidh]

I know of at least two, Kenny and Mulvihill.

I'm not sure either of those names is Norman.

They're both native Irish names. O'Cionaodha (Kenny) and O'Maoil Mhichil (Mulvihill). I went to High School with guys having those names. Most names that have "Mul" are going to be Irish. Mul comes from Maol "servant", Maoil is the genitive. The "mh" in Irish is pronounced as a "v" or a "w" in Irish, in the case of Mulvihill it's a "v".

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe (Maolmordha MacEochadha)

[rms2]

I know of at least two, Kenny and Mulvihill.

I'm not sure either of those names is Norman.

They're both native Irish names. O'Cionaodha (Kenny) and O'Maoil Mhichil (Mulvihill). I went to High School with guys having those names. Most names that have "Mul" are going to be Irish. Mul comes from Maol "servant", Maoil is the genitive. The "mh" in Irish is pronounced as a "v" or a "w" in Irish, in the case of Mulvihill it's a "v".

Thanks,  Miles Kehoe (Maolmordha MacEochadha)

Yeah, like I have told a few L21- guys who have asked me about it, I wouldn't expect all the Celts to belong to exactly the same subclade. I think P312 is the Celtic root, so to speak. Its subclades are tribal offshoots, and all relatives.

[GoldenHind]

I have long argued against the tendency to equate various archaeological cultures with specific subclades. Obviously I agree that all Celts are not likely to be of the same subclade. But I also suspect that there was quite a bit of admixture amongst haplogroups and subclades before the formation of the Celtic and Germanic cultures. While I don't deny that P312 was likely a strong component of Celtic civilization, I think the fairly strong showing of P312 in Scandinavia is difficult to explain in terms of Celtic intrusions.

[Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen]

Rich has hit a homerun with this remark.

"I think P312 is the Celtic root, so to speak. Its subclades are tribal offshoots, and all relatives."

The Tuatha De Danaan supposedly resided in Scandinavia.

"I think the fairly strong showing of P312 in Scandinavia is difficult to explain in terms of Celtic intrusions."

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/nolan/

Nolan Roots: The Tuatha De Danaan and Ugaine Mór

“Early Irish annalists referred to the Ó Nualláins (the O'Nolans) as the “ancient ones of Leinster”. Oral tradition further holds that they were descendants of the Tuatha De Danaan, the mythical Tribe of Dan, who, in their early wanderings, gave their name to the “Danube” river and the country of “Denmark”, reaching ancient Ireland sometime before the 4th century BC when Ugaine Mór, a High King of Ireland and, according to early genealogies, an ancestor of the Ó Nualláins, lived.

Glenn Allen Nolen
R-U152

[GoldenHind]

Rich has hit a homerun with this remark.

"I think P312 is the Celtic root, so to speak. Its subclades are tribal offshoots, and all relatives."

The Tuatha De Danaan supposedly resided in Scandinavia.

"I think the fairly strong showing of P312 in Scandinavia is difficult to explain in terms of Celtic intrusions."

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/nolan/

Nolan Roots: The Tuatha De Danaan and Ugaine Mór

“Early Irish annalists referred to the Ó Nualláins (the O'Nolans) as the “ancient ones of Leinster”. Oral tradition further holds that they were descendants of the Tuatha De Danaan, the mythical Tribe of Dan, who, in their early wanderings, gave their name to the “Danube” river and the country of “Denmark”, reaching ancient Ireland sometime before the 4th century BC when Ugaine Mór, a High King of Ireland and, according to early genealogies, an ancestor of the Ó Nualláins, lived.

Glenn Allen Nolen
R-U152

I had something in mind a little more convincing than Irish mythology.
Scandinavia is a long way from where the Hallstadt and La Tene Cultures formed in Europe. Nor am I aware of any modern scholars who would place Scandinavia within the Celtic sphere.
If nothing else, the Kipchuk tribesman ought to give us pause about rushing to identify R-P312 as exclusively Celtic.
Unless you think he is the descendant of a wandering Celtic bard...

[Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen]

My philosophy is to be inclusive in genetic genealogy. I merely pointed out the oral tradition of the Tuatha De Danaan. If you do not wish to consider the oral history of these people, so be it. Scholars do not know everything. Otherwise, we would already know the answers to a whole range of questions and there would be no need for further knowledge of any kind. Then we could all sit back and revel in humanity’s intellectual prowess.

If one considers the oral tradition of the Tuatha De Danaan then it is not “difficult to explain” Proto-Celtic migrations into the area you question. I do not believe R-P312 is “exclusively Celtic.” I do believe it is Proto-Celtic and from the East, though.

[rms2]

We picked up a third Irish L21- yesterday: Hagan, whose most distant ancestor hailed from Ulster.

[Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen]

Thanks for reporting the Hagan L21- at 385a and 385b at 11 and 17. 

[rms2]

Thanks for reporting the Hagan L21- at 385a and 385b at 11 and 17. 

You know, I missed those 385 values. I mainly noticed that he is L21- and not in the North-South cluster and also that his most distant ancestor came from farther north than the other two L21-.

I's odd that I missed his 385 values; I usually look at 385 because of my own 11-11 apparent RecLoH there.

[GoldenHind]

Thanks for reporting the Hagan L21- at 385a and 385b at 11 and 17. 

What is the significance of 11,17 at 385a/b?

[Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen]

385a and 385b at 11 and 17 is my research project at

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

Of the Nolans (Nola)

Origins of the Irish and Scottish: Corca Luighe (Corca Laoidhe) and Dál Riada (Dál Riata)

R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b7) (R1b1b2a2g) (R1b1b2h*) (R1b1c10) - DYS #385a and 385b at 11 and 17: A Corca Luighe (Corca Laoidhe) Ossory (Osraighe) and Dál Riada (Dál Riata) Uladh Haplotype in Co. Donegal, Ulster, Ireland, 1600s