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rms2
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« on: December 05, 2008, 11:57:36 PM »

Would it be an exaggeration to say that it looks very much like R-L21* is the prevalent haplogroup in Ireland?

All but two of the men of Irish descent who have received L21 results are L21+. (I'm not including L21- subclades, which, nevertheless, are outnumbered by L21+ in Ireland.)

The R-P312* Map is fast losing its Irish placemarks.

It's pretty damned exciting if you ask me (but who asked me?).

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« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 12:00:51 AM by rms2 » Logged

cmblandford
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 03:47:03 AM »

Starting to look like these were the first people to populate Ireland?
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2008, 04:28:27 AM »

Would it be an exaggeration to say that it looks very much like R-L21* is the prevalent haplogroup in Ireland?

All but two of the men of Irish descent who have received L21 results are L21+. (I'm not including L21- subclades, which, nevertheless, are outnumbered by L21+ in Ireland.)

The R-P312* Map is fast losing its Irish placemarks.

It's pretty damned exciting if you ask me (but who asked me?).

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It appears like Ireland will be a hotbed of L21+, but I'd like to see at least 100 results. I'd also bet that the north of the isle of Britain will be heavily L21+. I'm beginning to think that overall, the north of Ireland will be more similar genetically with Scotland, than with the rest of Ireland. North Connaught may be an exception.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2008, 10:41:18 AM »

Starting to look like these were the first people to populate Ireland?

Why?

Remember, the people who are most frequent in a place now, are the LAST people there. Why should we conclude that the first people in Ireland were like the last people there (i.e., the people we see there now)?

I think the first people in Ireland were likely to have been that clade of I2 that is found here and there. It appears to be much older than R-L21*. It seems to me the first people in Ireland will be represented by y-dna that is a minority or even vestigial in the island now.
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2008, 03:19:20 PM »

That sounds like the old wipeout theory, ie. the Saxons wiped out the Britons etc.  If L-21 is 3500 years old,  it wouldn't seem that it was the last group there.  I agree that I2 was probably earlier but  I would  suspect sparse settlements that did not develop into a "pervasive" population.  BTW there appear to be a fair number of untested L-21 in the Rhine Valley.  Certainly this group will show a significant number of L-21+, unlike Iberia. 
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2008, 03:39:56 PM »

That sounds like the old wipeout theory, ie. the Saxons wiped out the Britons etc.  If L-21 is 3500 years old,  it wouldn't seem that it was the last group there.  I agree that I2 was probably earlier but  I would  suspect sparse settlements that did not develop into a "pervasive" population.  BTW there appear to be a fair number of untested L-21 in the Rhine Valley.  Certainly this group will show a significant number of L-21+, unlike Iberia. 

Well, 3,500 years old is certainly too young to make it the first group there, since we know the first people in Ireland arrived there during the Mesolithic Period, 8,000 or more years ago.

I wasn't proposing any kind of "wipeout theory." R-L21* and R-M222* aren't the only haplogroups in Ireland, so they couldn't have wiped out everyone. Besides, y-dna is only one kind of dna that a people pass along to their descendants.

I still think it is common sense that what you see in a modern population is the end product, not the beginning.
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2008, 04:05:08 PM »

Without question 3500 is far too young to be the first.  And L-21 testing is way too premature to draw hard conclusions.  Maybe the more pressing question is why the high density of L-21 in Ireland when compared to England and the  continent (outside of the limited testing).  My family history points to southern England and is L-21+.  Did the Y parent come from  Ireland or from the continent?  L-21 is clearly old enough to predate the Romans in England which drew Irish to England to do battle.  The movement of Belgae et al from the continent to England is within 3500 years.  So the population of L-21+ in the Rhine and northern continent is something of an  indicator to me.
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2008, 10:03:52 PM »

I think it is possible that L21 arose somewhere on the continent- possibly somewhere in NW Europe or perhaps the Rhineland area- and then migrated in large part to the British Isles, where it greatly expanded. I suspect it, was a large component of the "Celtic" population of the British Isles. I believe it is showing very strongly in Wales and seems to be more common in western than eastern England. While it is fun to speculate, I always advise against getting too dogmatic. It will be interesting to see if some of these trends continue when the next group of L21 results some in.
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2008, 06:51:15 AM »

I think it is possible that L21 arose somewhere on the continent- possibly somewhere in NW Europe or perhaps the Rhineland area- and then migrated in large part to the British Isles, where it greatly expanded. I suspect it, was a large component of the "Celtic" population of the British Isles. I believe it is showing very strongly in Wales and seems to be more common in western than eastern England. While it is fun to speculate, I always advise against getting too dogmatic. It will be interesting to see if some of these trends continue when the next group of L21 results some in.

I agree.

I haven't seen a real rush of Welsh L21+ results. There have been a few, but I've also seen or heard of a couple of Welsh L21- results. If you look at my R-L21* Map, I think you'll see that L21 is not especially concentrated in Western England, although it is present there.

We still have a boatload of British Isles folk awaiting L21 results. Some of those, no doubt, will be negative, some almost certainly, since they belong to that North-South cluster that thus far is 100% L21-.

There are far fewer persons of continental ancestry awaiting L21 results. I wish there were more. Some of them also belong to that North-South cluster. Ading L21 to the Deep Clade-r would help, because that catches people who don't yet know that L21 even exists but who, nevertheless, may be L21+.
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 04:46:51 PM »

I think it is possible that L21 arose somewhere on the continent- possibly somewhere in NW Europe or perhaps the Rhineland area- and then migrated in large part to the British Isles, where it greatly expanded. I suspect it, was a large component of the "Celtic" population of the British Isles. I believe it is showing very strongly in Wales and seems to be more common in western than eastern England. While it is fun to speculate, I always advise against getting too dogmatic. It will be interesting to see if some of these trends continue when the next group of L21 results some in.


I haven't seen a real rush of Welsh L21+ results. There have been a few, but I've also seen or heard of a couple of Welsh L21- results. If you look at my R-L21* Map, I think you'll see that L21 is not especially concentrated in Western England, although it is present there.



While I agree that there hasn't been a rush of Welsh L21 results, your recent post on another topic indicates 100% of Welsh tested (2 out of two) are L21+, though in looking over the project results I thought I counted 3 of them. I am not aware of any Welsh L21-, though obviously that doesn't mean they don't exist. I do think the Welsh are probably the best stand-in for the Brittonic population, so I am following this with some interest.
Note I am not suggesting all L21 in England are Brittonic- some may well be of continental origin. Nor I am suggesting all L21- in England are of continental origin, though many of them may be. I am not a fan of identifying various R1b subclades exclusively with particular ethnic groups or archaeological cultures, though I don't deny that certain subclades may have been predominant in some of them.
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2008, 09:23:21 PM »

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While I agree that there hasn't been a rush of Welsh L21 results, your recent post on another topic indicates 100% of Welsh tested (2 out of two) are L21+, though in looking over the project results I thought I counted 3 of them. I am not aware of any Welsh L21-, though obviously that doesn't mean they don't exist. I do think the Welsh are probably the best stand-in for the Brittonic population, so I am following this with some interest.
Note I am not suggesting all L21 in England are Brittonic- some may well be of continental origin. Nor I am suggesting all L21- in England are of continental origin, though many of them may be. I am not a fan of identifying various R1b subclades exclusively with particular ethnic groups or archaeological cultures, though I don't deny that certain subclades may have been predominant in some of them.

There was an Evans (a solid Welsh name) who tested L21-, and there was also a Williams (another pretty common Welsh name) who tested L21-. I can't swear that Williams is Welsh, but Evans is a Welsh surname.

Even Ireland has some L21- (two so far) and no doubt will have more. I think Wales will probably be mostly L21+, but I'm not sure what the proportion will be.
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 04:51:06 PM »

I would say that Williams is very much a Welsh name, it ranked 3rd most common in the UK in the 1881 census, but its frequency dropped sharply at the border. it appears to have had three major hot spots centred around the Rhondda Valley, presumable because of mining and related industry, Anglesey, and Liverpool, not a place you would have been alone as a Welshman I feel. Though there were large numbers in all the major cities the frequency dropped in the surrounding countryside.
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« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 05:15:22 PM »

I think it is possible that L21 arose somewhere on the continent- possibly somewhere in NW Europe or perhaps the Rhineland area- and then migrated in large part to the British Isles, where it greatly expanded. I suspect it, was a large component of the "Celtic" population of the British Isles. I believe it is showing very strongly in Wales and seems to be more common in western than eastern England. While it is fun to speculate, I always advise against getting too dogmatic. It will be interesting to see if some of these trends continue when the next group of L21 results some in.
I haven't seen a real rush of Welsh L21+ results. There have been a few, but I've also seen or heard of a couple of Welsh L21- results. If you look at my R-L21* Map, I think you'll see that L21 is not especially concentrated in Western England, although it is present there.
While I agree that there hasn't been a rush of Welsh L21 results, your recent post on another topic indicates 100% of Welsh tested (2 out of two) are L21+, though in looking over the project results I thought I counted 3 of them. I am not aware of any Welsh L21-, though obviously that doesn't mean they don't exist. I do think the Welsh are probably the best stand-in for the Brittonic population, so I am following this with some interest.
Note I am not suggesting all L21 in England are Brittonic- some may well be of continental origin. Nor I am suggesting all L21- in England are of continental origin, though many of them may be. I am not a fan of identifying various R1b subclades exclusively with particular ethnic groups or archaeological cultures, though I don't deny that certain subclades may have been predominant in some of them.
There are at least two of us Irish R-L21* guys that could be better classified as Welsh, depending on your views of genealogical recordkeeping purity versus best probability of understanding ancient peoples and their movements.

I made the note the note that I could only prove Ireland, but my R-L21* (N54638 or Ysearch RXYKH) could be moved to Wales.  The reasoning goes to a bunch of family folklore and research, the surname (Walsh) and closest genetic distances (to Welsh people.)

A Mr. Gough has also reported in, "You might care to do the same for me. YSearch 2B579, most distant ancestor coming from Northern Ireland but my surname, Gough, is Welsh, and my closest match is a David Pugh, from Wales. Placemark 20 on Rich's L21+ map."
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« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 09:35:47 PM »

I would just like to add as a south  Walian that the name is more than familiar to me and is pronounced Guch if that makes sense
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 02:15:06 AM »



[/quote]
There are at least two of us Irish R-L21* guys that could be better classified as Welsh, depending on your views of genealogical recordkeeping purity versus best probability of understanding ancient peoples and their movements.

I made the note the note that I could only prove Ireland, but my R-L21* (N54638 or Ysearch RXYKH) could be moved to Wales.  The reasoning goes to a bunch of family folklore and research, the surname (Walsh) and closest genetic distances (to Welsh people.)

A Mr. Gough has also reported in, "You might care to do the same for me. YSearch 2B579, most distant ancestor coming from Northern Ireland but my surname, Gough, is Welsh, and my closest match is a David Pugh, from Wales. Placemark 20 on Rich's L21+ map."
[/quote]


The name is a toss up. In the north of Ireland my name, MacEochadha, is spelled with a "Ma"g"" as in MagEochadha and was Anglicized Geough, Gough, and Goff. Geoghegan is the diminutive form, MagEochagain. So, the name could be a native Irish name.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2008, 08:44:56 AM »

I am beginning to think maybe Rick Arnold is right in his impression that L21 was brought to the British Isles by the Goidels from someplace on the Continent (Henri Hubert said NW Germany). The Goidelic branch of Celtic is Q-Celtic. Brythonic, which is P-Celtic, could have been brought over by relative latecomers, who made less of an impact on the West because it was already packed with our boys. The Brythonic speakers made more of a genetic impact in places like SE England perhaps, and might have been mostly L21-, including - dare I say it? - some U152 (hate to break into the viking fantasy on that one).

Didier mentioned something that might be a bit of a test of this theory, though. Q-Celts are supposed to have gotten to Galicia in NW Spain. If Rick's theory is right, then some L21+ should show up there, unless of course, it disappeared for some reason.

We have one guy from NW Spain waiting for L21 results right now, but his ancestor came from Asturias and not Galicia.
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2008, 09:20:39 AM »

I am beginning to think maybe Rick Arnold is right in his impression that L21 was brought to the British Isles by the Goidels from someplace on the Continent (Henri Hubert said NW Germany). The Goidelic branch of Celtic is Q-Celtic. Brythonic, which is P-Celtic, could have been brought over by relative latecomers, who made less of an impact on the West because it was already packed with our boys. The Brythonic speakers made more of a genetic impact in places like SE England perhaps, and might have been mostly L21-, including - dare I say it? - some U152 (hate to break into the viking fantasy on that one).

Didier mentioned something that might be a bit of a test of this theory, though. Q-Celts are supposed to have gotten to Galicia in NW Spain. If Rick's theory is right, then some L21+ should show up there, unless of course, it disappeared for some reason.

We have one guy from NW Spain waiting for L21 results right now, but his ancestor came from Asturias and not Galicia.

Of course, I guess one explanation if very little L21+ shows up in Iberia is that not all Q-Celtic was Goidelic and maybe the Goidels were the L21+ branch of the Q-Celtic-speaking Celts, and they came from someplace other than Iberia and did not settle much in Iberia. On the other hand, some of those who left Britain in the 5th century AD are supposed to have settled in NW Spain.

We'll see, I guess.
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 03:12:22 PM »

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The Brythonic speakers made more of a genetic impact in places like SE England perhaps

Perhaps L21+ either split or spread to south west and west Gaul and were pushed to southern England by the spread of the Roman Empire and thus arrived later than the northern contingent.  As more continental results come in it will be interesting to compare German and French L21+.   
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2008, 10:45:38 AM »

First off, changing the subject just a little, let me say up front that I cannot yet get my y-line paper trail past my ggg-grandfather, Auguston Stevens, who was born 5 Feb 1804 in Wheeling, West Virginia (just plain Virginia back then), very near Pittsburgh, PA. So I do not know where my immigrant y ancestor came from.

Since I turned out to be L21+, I have wondered about a possible Irish origin, which, I must admit, would be for me a  cause for celebration. In fact, when I first did FTDNA's old "Deep SNP-R1b", way back in '06 (by cracky!), I was kind of secretly hoping I would be M222+. That didn't happen, of course. Now along comes L21+, and I am very pleased, needless to say.

Anyway, I never thought of Stevens (my surname) as very Irish, but I found this on the internet:

http://www.irishabroad.com/Yourroots/Familynames/SurnameView.asp?id=846

Quote
The names Stevens and Stephens in Ireland are derived from the native Gaelic Mac Giolla Stiofain Sept. It was also brought to the country by settlers especially during the sixteenth century. Oter [sic] descendants may deirve [sic] from the Norman Fitzstephen families. This name is now mostly found in Counties Dublin and Mayo.

Hmmm . . .

On the other hand, although I have some Irish haplotype neighbors, some of my closest matches at 37 and more markers are from the English West Midlands, Wales, and Scotland. I have an exact 25-marker match with a man named Beddows or Beddoes (it's spelled both ways, and I can't remember how he spells it) who was born in Worcester, England, but whose family came from nearby Shropshire. He won't upgrade, sadly, and he won't even create a YSearch entry. The Beddows are a private bunch. They won't even let you into the y results page of their project! (Kind of pisses me off, frankly.) Anyway, Dave Stedman, from Aston Munslow in Shropshire, tells me there are quite a few Beddows from nearby Ludlow in Shropshire.

So, who knows?
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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2008, 12:20:11 PM »


Hmmm . . .

On the other hand, although I have some Irish haplotype neighbors, some of my closest matches at 37 and more markers are from the English West Midlands, Wales, and Scotland. I have an exact 25-marker match with a man named Beddows or Beddoes (it's spelled both ways, and I can't remember how he spells it) who was born in Worcester, England, but whose family came from nearby Shropshire. He won't upgrade, sadly, and he won't even create a YSearch entry. The Beddows are a private bunch. They won't even let you into the y results page of their project! (Kind of pisses me off, frankly.) Anyway, Dave Stedman, from Aston Munslow in Shropshire, tells me there are quite a few Beddows from nearby Ludlow in Shropshire.

So, who knows?

Some people seem only interested in their own surnames, I'm always interested in the different surname matches, they give good clues for geographical origins. I found this list of Anglicised Welsh Surnames that includes Beddoes and Stevens. It seems 'BEDO' might be derived from 'MAREDUDD' (i.e. Meredith).:


http://www.welshnamesmabinogiondialect.co.uk/z1intro2.htm
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2008, 02:10:12 PM »


Hmmm . . .

On the other hand, although I have some Irish haplotype neighbors, some of my closest matches at 37 and more markers are from the English West Midlands, Wales, and Scotland. I have an exact 25-marker match with a man named Beddows or Beddoes (it's spelled both ways, and I can't remember how he spells it) who was born in Worcester, England, but whose family came from nearby Shropshire. He won't upgrade, sadly, and he won't even create a YSearch entry. The Beddows are a private bunch. They won't even let you into the y results page of their project! (Kind of pisses me off, frankly.) Anyway, Dave Stedman, from Aston Munslow in Shropshire, tells me there are quite a few Beddows from nearby Ludlow in Shropshire.

So, who knows?

Some people seem only interested in their own surnames, I'm always interested in the different surname matches, they give good clues for geographical origins. I found this list of Anglicised Welsh Surnames that includes Beddoes and Stevens. It seems 'BEDO' might be derived from 'MAREDUDD' (i.e. Meredith).:


http://www.welshnamesmabinogiondialect.co.uk/z1intro2.htm

Cool site! Thanks!

I knew there were some Welsh Stevenses around, but if any of them has had his y dna tested, he doesn't match me (not yet, anyway). There is a Welsh folk singer with bright red hair named Mike (or "Meic") Stevens, and there was that Welsh rocker from back in the '70s and '80s who called himself "Shakin' Stevens," but I think that latter was a stage name.

Here's a fairly recent photo of Mike (Meic) Stevens: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41613000/jpg/_41613118_meic_stevens203.jpg

Here's a black-and-white one of him in his younger days: http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/383016.jpg

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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2008, 12:27:04 AM »

Of course, the surname Stevens is not all that frequent in Wales. It is much more frequent in England, and my closest out-of-surname match at 67 markers (62/67) has the surname Webb, which is a West Midlands surname, especially frequent in Shropshire (where Beddows said his family is from). I have another relatively close (56/67) West Midlands neighbor, surname Self, whose ancestor came from Wiltshire.

The Cornovii were the Celtic tribe centered on Shropshire. Their chief city was Wroxeter, called by the Romans "Viroconium Cornoviorum."

This site says

Quote
The Cornovii occupied quite a large area centred on Shropshire between the Carvetti to the north and the Dobunni to the south. Their capital was at Viroconium Cornoviorum (Wroxeter). They were builders of some outstanding hillforts and also their fine pottery. Copper and Silver-Lead mines were also among their industries. Their capital was the fourth largest town in Roman Britain. Other major settlements were at Deva Victrix - Chester and Bovium - Tilston in Cheshire.

This site says they were primarily a pastoral people who apparently were warlike and part of the people who used a certain type of sword (the "Ewart Park" sword) and certain spears that belong to what is called the "Broadward Group." Here is a photo of a reproduction of a Ewart Park sword: http://www.bronze-age-craft.com/images/ewart_park_sword.jpg.

I'm not claiming to be descended from a Cornovi y ancestor, but it is interesting to read about ancient Celts who occupied the area where I seem to get some fairly close haplotype neighbors.
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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2008, 12:59:32 AM »

This site says they were primarily a pastoral people who apparently were warlike and part of the people who used a certain type of sword (the "Ewart Park" sword) and certain spears that belong to what is called the "Broadward Group." Here is a photo of a reproduction of a Ewart Park sword: http://www.bronze-age-craft.com/images/ewart_park_sword.jpg.
That's a nice looking sword.  I wish I could someday lay claim to a particular style such as that, and mount it above the mantle of my non-existent fireplace.  :)
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2008, 08:32:51 AM »

This site says they were primarily a pastoral people who apparently were warlike and part of the people who used a certain type of sword (the "Ewart Park" sword) and certain spears that belong to what is called the "Broadward Group." Here is a photo of a reproduction of a Ewart Park sword: http://www.bronze-age-craft.com/images/ewart_park_sword.jpg.
That's a nice looking sword.  I wish I could someday lay claim to a particular style such as that, and mount it above the mantle of my non-existent fireplace.  :)

I'm not sure I can lay claim to it, but it is a cool-looking sword.
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2008, 09:57:08 PM »


Hmmm . . .

On the other hand, although I have some Irish haplotype neighbors, some of my closest matches at 37 and more markers are from the English West Midlands, Wales, and Scotland. I have an exact 25-marker match with a man named Beddows or Beddoes (it's spelled both ways, and I can't remember how he spells it) who was born in Worcester, England, but whose family came from nearby Shropshire. He won't upgrade, sadly, and he won't even create a YSearch entry. The Beddows are a private bunch. They won't even let you into the y results page of their project! (Kind of pisses me off, frankly.) Anyway, Dave Stedman, from Aston Munslow in Shropshire, tells me there are quite a few Beddows from nearby Ludlow in Shropshire.

So, who knows?

Some people seem only interested in their own surnames, I'm always interested in the different surname matches, they give good clues for geographical origins. I found this list of Anglicised Welsh Surnames that includes Beddoes and Stevens. It seems 'BEDO' might be derived from 'MAREDUDD' (i.e. Meredith).:


http://www.welshnamesmabinogiondialect.co.uk/z1intro2.htm
You might be interested to know that the Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames agrees with the Welsh origin of Beddoes (and several variant spellings) from Bedo a pet form of Meredith, and cites a reference to a Bedo ap Richard in Shropshire in 1493. I'm sure you are aware that Shropshire is on the Welsh border.
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