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rms2
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2008, 01:00:09 PM »


Hmmm . . .

On the other hand, although I have some Irish haplotype neighbors, some of my closest matches at 37 and more markers are from the English West Midlands, Wales, and Scotland. I have an exact 25-marker match with a man named Beddows or Beddoes (it's spelled both ways, and I can't remember how he spells it) who was born in Worcester, England, but whose family came from nearby Shropshire. He won't upgrade, sadly, and he won't even create a YSearch entry. The Beddows are a private bunch. They won't even let you into the y results page of their project! (Kind of pisses me off, frankly.) Anyway, Dave Stedman, from Aston Munslow in Shropshire, tells me there are quite a few Beddows from nearby Ludlow in Shropshire.

So, who knows?

Some people seem only interested in their own surnames, I'm always interested in the different surname matches, they give good clues for geographical origins. I found this list of Anglicised Welsh Surnames that includes Beddoes and Stevens. It seems 'BEDO' might be derived from 'MAREDUDD' (i.e. Meredith).:


http://www.welshnamesmabinogiondialect.co.uk/z1intro2.htm
You might be interested to know that the Oxford Dictionary of English Surnames agrees with the Welsh origin of Beddoes (and several variant spellings) from Bedo a pet form of Meredith, and cites a reference to a Bedo ap Richard in Shropshire in 1493. I'm sure you are aware that Shropshire is on the Welsh border.

I think the origin is probably Brythonic rather than specifically Welsh, since I have checked into it, and almost all the Beddoes are located in Shropshire on the English side of the border. But if by "English" one means "Anglo-Saxon," then the Beddoes aren't English.

I don't really know what to make of my 25-marker match with Mr. Beddoes. I know of 25-marker matches that turn to mush at 37 markers and beyond (I was just talking via email this morning with a man who has an exact 25-marker match that slouches to a gd of 5 at 37 markers, for example).

I have actually joined the Beddoes DNA Project, but it hasn't done me any good whatsoever. My Mr. Beddoes won't answer my emails (maybe he's dead?), and the admin of the project does not even display an email address by which he can be contacted. Seems like the thing is worthless except for what the admin gets out of it. The project's name should be "The Mysterious and Secretive Beddoes DNA Project". Perhaps those "meddling kids and their dog", Scooby Doo et al, would have more luck with it than I have had.

I try to answer all emails from my members, and they know how to get hold of me. What good is the admin of a dna project who behaves in any other way?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 01:04:00 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2009, 09:51:12 PM »

I noticed the below categories at the M222 project.  I'm curious as to what they mean.  Are they people who didn't take the full deep Clade R or took it a while ago, before P312 and L21 were included?   What does "Pre-M222" mean?       Should all of these people be asked to take an L21 individual order?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=yresults

Pre-M222   
514   71527   Higgins    R1b1b2
515   37784   Wilson    R1b1b2
516   101704 Clark       R1b1b2
 
Probable M222-   
517   36795   Crowell    R1b1b2
518   17727   Nelson    R1b1b2
519   88162   McCord    R1b1b2
520   54067   McGirt    R1b1b2a
521   39163   McCord    R1b1b2
522   108564 Robles    R1b1b2
523   133171 Howle    R1b1b2
 
SNP-tested M222-   
524   98399   Fielding    R1b1b2
525   50373   O'Hara    R1b1b2a1b
526   42481   Hernandez    R1b1b2
527   N23840 Van Der Lee    R1b1b2
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rms2
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« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2009, 07:53:43 AM »

I noticed the below categories at the M222 project.  I'm curious as to what they mean.  Are they people who didn't take the full deep Clade R or took it a while ago, before P312 and L21 were included?   What does "Pre-M222" mean?       Should all of these people be asked to take an L21 individual order?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/default.aspx?section=yresults

Pre-M222   
514   71527   Higgins    R1b1b2
515   37784   Wilson    R1b1b2
516   101704 Clark       R1b1b2
 
Probable M222-   
517   36795   Crowell    R1b1b2
518   17727   Nelson    R1b1b2
519   88162   McCord    R1b1b2
520   54067   McGirt    R1b1b2a
521   39163   McCord    R1b1b2
522   108564 Robles    R1b1b2
523   133171 Howle    R1b1b2
 
SNP-tested M222-   
524   98399   Fielding    R1b1b2
525   50373   O'Hara    R1b1b2a1b
526   42481   Hernandez    R1b1b2
527   N23840 Van Der Lee    R1b1b2


I have been informed that it is no longer possible to order L21 from FTDNA as a stand alone test. Those people would have to order the Deep Clade-R or a Deep Clade-Extended upgrade to find out about their L21 status.

When I get the chance, I'll send David Wilson an email and ask him about them.
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2009, 08:04:56 AM »


. . . When I get the chance, I'll send David Wilson an email and ask him about them.

Done!
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2009, 11:10:00 AM »

I've been looking for possibilities of people outside the Beatty/Byrnes Leinster modal based cluster that might L159.2 test candidates.  Of course that BBC cluster also has a common 464x=2c2g.  In my speculative search for R-L21* "varieties" I occasionally found people that "straddled" both the Leinster modal and the Robert Hughes 17-14-10 Wales I modal.

I found commonality across the two groups at these two off-modal markers - DYS448 and DYS449.  WAMH for 448=19 and for 449=29.  Very, very consistently, the Leinster people are 448=18 (Ken N discovered this a couple of years back) and the 17-14-10 people are on e step further away (lower) from WAMH even yet at 448=17.   It's also very consistent that these two groups have 449>=30.  449 is a pretty fast mover, but nevertheless, Early Beatty comments that it is very consistent within the BBC group.  There is one glitch.  A subset of BBC is 449=29 or WAMH.  Earl and I both think that might be a back mutation.  The modal for Leinster is 449=30, which may end up being the modal for L159.2+.

The striking thing is that if you look for R-L21* people that are both 448<=18 and 449>=30 almost everyone falls into the Leinster or the Wales I camps.  The only  possible interloper that I can see is Wales II.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/DYS464x%20ccgg/default.aspx?section=yresults
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty_Byrnes_DNA/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/WalesDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

The Beatty Byrnes forum has this document in their historic overview.  Here is an excerpt:
Quote from: Alfred P. Smyth
Celtic Leinster: Towards an Historical Geography of Early Irish Civilization
Alfred P. Smyth 1982

But the argument for a West British or 'Welsh' origin for a section of the Leinstermen is supported by analogy with firmer evidence from the early monastic period where, once again, many prominent Leinster ascetics either visited St David's in Pembrokeshire, or actually came from Wales.

I'm not archeological or legends expert, which is why I pose this question.  Set aside the search for L159.2+'s.  Is this a genetic connection of an ancient group in Britain, founders of both Leinstermen and Wale I men (whom Hughes called ancient Britons)?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 11:13:02 AM by Mike » Logged

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NealtheRed
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« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2009, 11:52:43 AM »

It could easily be the other way around: the Llyn peninsula in Wales is named after Irish settlers from Leinster.

Also, the Irish raided the coasts of Wales and northern Britain during Roman times, and most presumably these Irish came from Leinster.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 11:58:30 AM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2009, 07:36:45 PM »

What I would find interesting is what are the MRCA calculations for these clusters that cross the Irish Sea?  That would at least give us an idea of date possibilities for such movements by providing a maximum age. The direction would also be interesting.  Has anyone ever compared MRCA dates for the Irish and British members seperately for the inter-island clusters.   That is about the best that can really be done to infer direction of the movement although it is still problematic.  I have suggested that this be done for M222 a few times.  I have a suspicion based on 'almost-M222' being mainly in SW Scotland and western Britain that M222 may also prove ot be older there than in Ireland.  I am surprised nobody with number crunching abilities has ever done such calculations.   
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« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2009, 09:17:34 PM »

I agree with you, Alan. The best way to find out the answer is to calculate age estimates. I'm with you too that movement into Ireland came from Britain, at least the most ancient movement. That being said, I still think the possibility of L159.2 being Irish immigration to Britain is up in the air.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 09:18:16 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2009, 01:09:21 PM »

I agree with you, Alan. The best way to find out the answer is to calculate age estimates. I'm with you too that movement into Ireland came from Britain, at least the most ancient movement. That being said, I still think the possibility of L159.2 being Irish immigration to Britain is up in the air.

I like the concept of pre-M222 or pre-whatever clade i.e. clusters that look ancestral to the SNP defined clade but do not have it, possibly giving an insight into the deeper time strory of the lineage.  I am not mathematical enough to actually judge how valid the clustering etc is but it seems a very logical approach to me.  Makes you wonder if there is 'pre-L21' i.e. non-L21 S116* but that has STR characteristics of L21. There is S116* all over Europe.  I know there is not much reliable in terms of STRs that separate L21* from other S116 clades but a couple of L21 associated STR trends were posted here recently.  

Where in Europe do non-L21 people have those L21-like markers?  My pet hunch is that S116* moved by both Mediteranian and Danubian/north of Alps routes and that L21 on present distribution surely happened in the  north of Alps group.  If this is true then there should be more L21-like S116* people along the  the Danubian north of Alps S116* route and fewer among Italian and Iberian S116*.  The reverse will be true if L21 originated in the other scenario I posted the other day wherebye after a Med. then Atlantic Iberian S116* treck,  L21 occured just at the point where it was exiting Iberia into France (i.e. the Basque Country).  There are some attractions of that alternative too although it is not one that jumps out of the L21 distribution map and is somethat counter-intuitive (but you never know).

However, the big issue I see with the searching for 'pre-L21' sort of approach is that most of the potential path north of the Alps is grossly undersampled (Austria, Hungary, etc) campared to Italy and Iberia so a simple head count may be completely misleading.  
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 01:21:13 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2009, 10:01:07 PM »

Mike has a lot of very interesting insightful thoughts on M222.  I think the general thrust is that M222 probably did happen in the early centuries AD in someone who didnt have the SNP but did belong to a group with STRs that were close to the M222 modal.  He has pointed out that these 'pre' or 'almost' M222 STR people are distributed mainly between Wales and SW Scotland.  I understand that the latter also has the largest M222 concentration outside Ireland.  So, on the basis that the SNP must have first occurred in the pre-M222 area and that the area it occurred in is likely to have some M222, my best bet would be SW Scotland as the origin point of the SNP.  From what I can understand, M222 but no pre-M222 is known in NW Ireland so it seems likely that it arrived their after the M222 SNP had happened and that the pre-M222 cluster's deeper history was in SW Scotland or western Britain.   Where the pre-M222 STR traits first occurred is not clear but people have been saying it pretty deep at the root.  That suggests to me that while M222 is a late SNP that probably arose in western Britain and prospered shortly after in NW Ireland, some of the STR roots of the pre-M222 cluster could be early enough to be pre-isles. Basically on odd lineage among the L21* population.  Mike posted on another forum that he calculated that L21 to M222 STR change would have taken about 1000-1500 years.  So, that sounds very like the process began not too long after L21 itself. That makes you wonder if the first STR traits heading towards the M222 STRs can be picked up on the continent.
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« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2009, 09:38:12 AM »

Mike has a lot of very interesting insightful thoughts on M222.  I think the general thrust is that M222 probably did happen in the early centuries AD in someone who didnt have the SNP but did belong to a group with STRs that were close to the M222 modal.  He has pointed out that these 'pre' or 'almost' M222 STR people are distributed mainly between Wales and SW Scotland.  I understand that the latter also has the largest M222 concentration outside Ireland.  So, on the basis that the SNP must have first occurred in the pre-M222 area and that the area it occurred in is likely to have some M222, my best bet would be SW Scotland as the origin point of the SNP.  From what I can understand, M222 but no pre-M222 is known in NW Ireland so it seems likely that it arrived their after the M222 SNP had happened and that the pre-M222 cluster's deeper history was in SW Scotland or western Britain.   Where the pre-M222 STR traits first occurred is not clear but people have been saying it pretty deep at the root.  That suggests to me that while M222 is a late SNP that probably arose in western Britain and prospered shortly after in NW Ireland, some of the STR roots of the pre-M222 cluster could be early enough to be pre-isles. Basically on odd lineage among the L21* population.  Mike posted on another forum that he calculated that L21 to M222 STR change would have taken about 1000-1500 years.  So, that sounds very like the process began not too long after L21 itself. That makes you wonder if the first STR traits heading towards the M222 STRs can be picked up on the continent.
Just to be clear as to the Mike's...   I did some work that identified R-L21* that are "almost-M222+" from a haplotype standpoint and they had the geographic origins that Alan describes.
I think there is another Mike (Mike23 I think) that came up with the age estimates.  I generally don't make age estimates based on haplotypes other than to use the output of a tool or quote an expert.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2009, 09:59:07 AM »

Mike has a lot of very interesting insightful thoughts on M222.  I think the general thrust is that M222 probably did happen in the early centuries AD in someone who didnt have the SNP but did belong to a group with STRs that were close to the M222 modal.  He has pointed out that these 'pre' or 'almost' M222 STR people are distributed mainly between Wales and SW Scotland.  I understand that the latter also has the largest M222 concentration outside Ireland.  So, on the basis that the SNP must have first occurred in the pre-M222 area and that the area it occurred in is likely to have some M222, my best bet would be SW Scotland as the origin point of the SNP.  From what I can understand, M222 but no pre-M222 is known in NW Ireland so it seems likely that it arrived their after the M222 SNP had happened and that the pre-M222 cluster's deeper history was in SW Scotland or western Britain.   Where the pre-M222 STR traits first occurred is not clear but people have been saying it pretty deep at the root.  That suggests to me that while M222 is a late SNP that probably arose in western Britain and prospered shortly after in NW Ireland, some of the STR roots of the pre-M222 cluster could be early enough to be pre-isles. Basically on odd lineage among the L21* population.  Mike posted on another forum that he calculated that L21 to M222 STR change would have taken about 1000-1500 years.  So, that sounds very like the process began not too long after L21 itself. That makes you wonder if the first STR traits heading towards the M222 STRs can be picked up on the continent.
Just to be clear as to the Mike's...   I did some work that identified R-L21* that are "almost-M222+" from a haplotype standpoint and they had the geographic origins that Alan describes.
I think there is another Mike (Mike23 I think) that came up with the age estimates.  I generally don't make age estimates based on haplotypes other than to use the output of a tool or quote an expert.

oh aplogies if I partly mixed you up with the other Mike. 
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2009, 11:13:37 AM »

.......
Just to be clear as to the Mike's...   I did some work that identified R-L21* that are "almost-M222+" from a haplotype standpoint and they had the geographic origins that Alan describes.
I think there is another Mike (Mike23 I think) that came up with the age estimates.  I generally don't make age estimates based on haplotypes other than to use the output of a tool or quote an expert.
oh aplogies if I partly mixed you up with the other Mike. 
No problem, I just don't feel like I'm equipped to argue STR mutation rates and TMRCA's.  I go on what others say there and try to assess the different views.
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