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Author Topic: Open Letter to Genetic Genealogy Community  (Read 4827 times)
Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« on: November 29, 2008, 11:27:51 AM »

Hi:

This letter delves into the core problem of the genetic genealogy community. It is time for the genetic genealogy community to grow out of its infancy. We are no longer in the old days of bikini haplotypes and wild unsubstantiated analysis, and interpretation.  People may disagree in this community, but this community can no longer tolerate wild exaggerated analysis and interpretation. Ignoring genetic data to further ones own theory or ambition in our community must not be tolerated. Using research to further a theory or opinion is acceptable; however, we in the genetic genealogy community can no longer tolerate someone or some organization advancing that theory, analysis, or opinion by consciously ignoring research or genetic data of any kind including medical genetic data.

We in the genetic genealogy community must demand accuracy in this industry from our growing list of amateur genetic genealogist. The professional industry should also strive for accuracy and excellence in twenty-first century genetic genealogy and population genetics. Ignoring a subset of the population to further research, goals, or ambitions is not acceptable behavior by anyone in this industry, whether amateur or professional. We cannot strive for excellence in the genetic genealogy community and enable bad science. Research disagreements are acceptable, but enabling bad science is not. I implore the administrators of DNA Forums, Genealogy-DNA-L Archives Mailing List, Charles Kerchner, and others in this industry including the National Geographic Genographic Project to open your eyes to the advancement made in this industry since the turn of the century. The genetic genealogy industry has matured. We can no longer tolerate twentieth century science in a twenty-first century environment.

Glenn Allen Nolen
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2008, 10:36:22 AM »

I appreciate what you wrote, Glenn, but I don't think there is much we can do about the person who inspired it.

He is who he is and, unfortunately, some people listen to him.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 01:08:18 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 03:47:45 PM »

An interesting issue is pending with the pending compilation of a U152 map. It is well known this person refuses to recognize any U152 results which don't fit his preconceptions about that subclade. He has already expressed some nervousness about whether the data used for the map will exclude those who in his opinion have insufficient paper trails.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2008, 04:06:41 PM »

An interesting issue is pending with the pending compilation of a U152 map. It is well known this person refuses to recognize any U152 results which don't fit his preconceptions about that subclade. He has already expressed some nervousness about whether the data used for the map will exclude those who in his opinion have insufficient paper trails.

One would think inclusion in his database or on his Google map means passing a Mayflower Society-like muster.

I think the only people who really get screened are the Irish and other "undesirables."

Ah, well. How can anyone take him seriously?
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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2008, 04:42:37 PM »

Enablers are doing our community a disservice while waiting for the professional community to fix errors in TMRCA estimates, which probably will not be forthcoming until a healthy (disease free) lineage can be produced for public consumption.
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rms2
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2008, 09:10:25 PM »

Enablers are doing our community a disservice while waiting for the professional community to fix errors in TMRCA estimates, which probably will not be forthcoming until a healthy (disease free) lineage can be produced for public consumption.


Well some of us, including you, have fought the man tooth and nail.

But he has his fans, hard as that is to believe.
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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 02:46:29 PM »

Unlike other scientific disciplines that get resolved in peer reviewed journal articles over months, years, and even decades of contentious issues, genetic genealogy has emerged through a different path: forums, boards, and lists. Primarily, the struggle over genetic genealogy issues in the forefront of the industry are played out very publicly over hours and days on these venues rather than weeks, months, or years in other scientific endeavors.

I am thankful for your and others efforts in the amateur genetic genealogy industry, but one thing is certain, for the most part the professional community has failed to recognize this shift. Advances in genetic genealogy are swift and from the amateur genetic genealogy community. The professional community is out of touch with the new reality and are, therefore, irrelevant. I am thankful to be a small part of our growing knowledgeable community.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2008, 11:53:30 PM »



I think the only people who really get screened are the Irish and other "undesirables."

[/quote]



When he does come across an Irish result, he invents a way of making the name "non-Irish". That's why I took his name and translated it into an Irish name on another board!

Oh, and beware, he suddenly has Irish cousins now who he fully expects to be L21+  I wonder if anyone has asked to see the paper trail of his relationship to these Irish cousins.

Thanks,  Miles (Maolmordha MacEochadha, unless I was U152+ then I would be Miles Steadman!)
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2008, 01:12:44 AM »

His new found Irish cousins might be a result of the below post found by cache on Google. This poster mentions the ancient Scythian, Ashkenazi, Proto-Celtic probable relationship pointed out in my research. I'm glad others are mentioning the ancient relationships of the Milesian Legends, also. They  probably aren't without fiction, but I'm certain they have factual content.     

DNAForums

R1b-U152/S28+ Project

The Origins of R-U152/S28

Alexandrina

"May I add a little something here please: I posted this to an anthropology site recently.

Although I am not an Anthropologist I do have an M.A. in History (Modern) so please excuse my lack of knowledge within your field of expertise.

My father, a Scottish Presbyterian age 94 has been tested for genealogical purposes with familytree DNA and found to be within the R1B1B2h sub haplogroup via exact match someone who was deep clade tested. He is listed on David's database however only 25 out of the 67 are listed there.

His family tree has a paper trail to mid 1700's and beyond via clan lineages to 1200-1300 etc. (speaking broadly here)

After perusal of the Scottish historical document :The Declaration of Arbroath dated 1320 CE, and critique of the assertion therein that the Scottish nation descend from the Scythians (who they assert were exhiles from Israel), how can we juxtapose this argument against David Feux's hypotheses (and I assume it is merely an argument not set in stone just yet) re the La Tene Celtic connection to that Haplogroup.

If the Declaration of Arbroath has some substance in part, one might expect to see some Ashkinazi contributors within this Haplogroup (R1B1B2h).

Given that it seems unlikely that one could argue that Celts are also recent descendants of Israeli patriarchs, just what would you make of a finding that large numbers of Scots and Irish, including my father, are within the same haplogroup as large numbers of Ashkinazi who continue to argue a direct lineage to Judah?

Could the old argument that many Brits, Scots Irish ARE perhaps descended from Scythians who originated in the Northern Territories of Israel have any substance?

Etymologically speaking there does seem to be some evidence for this according to Keating and others who argued the root for Scot is the same as for Scythian as SCT, whereby Greeks had no C , and changed the reading to TH accordingly, making the root SKTH including a phoenitic vowel whereby 'we get' SKUTHAI & SKODAI =SCOT +SKOTHS =SCOTS.

This then gives us a potential link to Scythians , and I stress 'potential' yet any connection to their exact origins rests with the research of ancient historians who have come up with a myriad of possibilities.

Certainly links via Y~DNA haplogroup results between largish numbers of Irish and Scottish (supposed Celts) to Askinazi folk from Israel is interesting.

I don't know much about David Feux , nor if he has commented on this finding: I would argue that historians and anthropologists alike will be able to come to a more precise conclusion re human migratory patterns if they can work in an interdisciplinary manner with reputable specialists in the field of genetics (eventually).

I would be very interested to hear your comments on this possibility."


Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 09:36:55 AM »

I hope your not trying to suggest Steadman isn't an Irish name.

Just curious though as to why you chose it, its not the most common name in England by a long shot

Cheers Dave Stedman





I think the only people who really get screened are the Irish and other "undesirables."




When he does come across an Irish result, he invents a way of making the name "non-Irish". That's why I took his name and translated it into an Irish name on another board!

Oh, and beware, he suddenly has Irish cousins now who he fully expects to be L21+  I wonder if anyone has asked to see the paper trail of his relationship to these Irish cousins.

Thanks,  Miles (Maolmordha MacEochadha, unless I was U152+ then I would be Miles Steadman!)
[/quote]
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eochaidh
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 12:27:41 PM »

I hope your not trying to suggest Steadman isn't an Irish name.

Just curious though as to why you chose it, its not the most common name in England by a long shot

Cheers Dave Stedman


Thanks,  Miles (Maolmordha MacEochadha, unless I was U152+ then I would be Miles Steadman!)
[/quote]

[/quote]

Not at all, David! "Steadman" is just the English translation of my name "MacEochaidha, MacEochaidh". "Eoch, each" means horse in Irish. So, MacEochadha is the gentive form of "son of the horse man" or "Steadman". MacEochaidh is also used.

There are lots of Irish and Scots names built upon the roots each and eoch. Gough, Haughey, McGeechie, McGeoghan, MacEachainn, MacEachern, Keohane, Howe, and of course, Keogh, Kehoe and Keough.

Thanks, Miles Kehoe
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 09:15:10 PM »



I think the only people who really get screened are the Irish and other "undesirables."




When he does come across an Irish result, he invents a way of making the name "non-Irish". That's why I took his name and translated it into an Irish name on another board!

Oh, and beware, he suddenly has Irish cousins now who he fully expects to be L21+  I wonder if anyone has asked to see the paper trail of his relationship to these Irish cousins.

Thanks,  Miles (Maolmordha MacEochadha, unless I was U152+ then I would be Miles Steadman!)
[/quote]

I saw a post on Rootsweb to that effect, in which he said he was proud to have some "aboriginal" McCormick ancestors, since so many of his ancestors were "invaders."

I took those remarks as condescending and, in fact, insulting.

But I shouldn't read the man's posts at all.
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2008, 07:34:53 PM »

The person in question just today posted on the dna forum that "all" Irish U152 have Scottish, English or Norman surnames. As I understand it, this just isn't the case. Why doesn't someone point this out, instead of just allowing him to misinform others?
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2008, 09:20:00 PM »

The person in question just today posted on the dna forum that "all" Irish U152 have Scottish, English or Norman surnames. As I understand it, this just isn't the case. Why doesn't someone point this out, instead of just allowing him to misinform others?

Probably because he's a hopeless case who cries every time someone gets the better of him in an argument. Lately, on Rootsweb, he has taken to telling anyone who disagrees with him to no longer respond to any of his posts. He's told Ken Nordtvedt that several times already.

The turds at dna forums deserve him.
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2008, 12:29:06 PM »

The person in question just today posted on the dna forum that "all" Irish U152 have Scottish, English or Norman surnames. As I understand it, this just isn't the case. Why doesn't someone point this out, instead of just allowing him to misinform others?

I replied to his post by saying that his name "Faux" is obviously an Anglicized form of the natrive Irish name O'Sionnach (Fox), and that his Y line must be Irish, and should not be counted among U152 in England.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2008, 01:32:34 PM »

The person in question just today posted on the dna forum that "all" Irish U152 have Scottish, English or Norman surnames. As I understand it, this just isn't the case. Why doesn't someone point this out, instead of just allowing him to misinform others?

I replied to his post by saying that his name "Faux" is obviously an Anglicized form of the natrive Irish name O'Sionnach (Fox), and that his Y line must be Irish, and should not be counted among U152 in England.

Thanks,  Miles

He posted the same manure on Rootsweb, by the way. He doesn't try very hard to disguise his anti-Irish animus.
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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2008, 11:34:18 AM »

"I replied to his post by saying that his name "Faux" is obviously an Anglicized form of the natrive Irish name O'Sionnach (Fox), and that his Y line must be Irish, and should not be counted among U152 in England.

Thanks,  Miles"

That made me smile!

Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2008, 04:43:11 PM »

Personally I think the most effective response would be to list the surnames of those U152+ results from Ireland. Unfortunately I don't have that information. That might demonstrate the bias of the claim that none are Irish surnames.
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« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2008, 06:21:11 PM »

Personally I think the most effective response would be to list the surnames of those U152+ results from Ireland. Unfortunately I don't have that information. That might demonstrate the bias of the claim that none are Irish surnames.

Faux has some of them listed on his own web site, each with an "explanation" of how it is really English or Norman or Scottish, etc.

Here's the site:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm

There's some inaccurate and misleading stuff there. I know for a fact that the "Research Sample" referred to under "Norway", accompanied by the line, "Over 10% of 25% R1b1c = R1b1c10 BUT all from SE Norway" was TWO U152+ guys out of a sample of 22 R1b1b2 Norwegians (out of 85 total Norwegians). That's just two, which he somehow never mentions, and 2 out of 22 is just 9%, not "Over 10%." Never mind that two is far too small a number to predict a probable population percentage from.

Jim Wilson used the Norwegian samples from Weale's 2002 study, Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration, and tested them for U152 ("S28" back then) and U106 ("S21" then).

TWO Norwegians out of 85 were U152+, and the whole sample was from the same region.

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« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2008, 09:51:05 PM »

Personally I think the most effective response would be to list the surnames of those U152+ results from Ireland. Unfortunately I don't have that information. That might demonstrate the bias of the claim that none are Irish surnames.

I'll be posting just that on DNA Forums. Four of the six names on his list are native Irish:

Allan - O'hAllamhain, O'hAilin

Donachy - MacDonnchadha

Opray - O'Preit

Ryall - O'Raghaill

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2008, 10:04:57 PM »

Here's my post about native Irish names from DNA-Forums, under R1b-U152

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=5611

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2008, 12:54:45 AM »

"Personally I think the most effective response would be to list the surnames of those U152+ results from Ireland. Unfortunately I don't have that information. That might demonstrate the bias of the claim that none are Irish surnames."

Go to: Of the Nolans

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/page12.html

Go to:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nolenancestry/r1b1b2h_r1b1c10_participant_text_file.txt

R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b7) (R1b1b2a2g) (R1b1b2h*) (R1b1c10) S28+ or U152+: DYS #385a and 385b at 11 and 17 Research Study Participant Text File.

Scroll down to:

Ireland Heritage Y-DNA Project

R1b1b2a1b7

3029 105647 Campbell  R1b1b2a1b7c 12 24 13 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 20       11 11 22 24 15 15 17 17 36 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 9 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 17 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

3030 83649 Ray  R1b1b2a1b7 12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 31 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15 16 17 17       11 11 19 23 15 15 17 17 36 41 12 12                                                             

3031 N4410 Quigley  R1b1b2a1b7 13 23 14 10 11 13 12 12 11 14 13 30 17 8 10 12 11 25 15 19 29 15 16 17 17       11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 9 10 8 10 10 12 22 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 14 12 10 13 11 11 12 12

3032 N50964 Sweeney  R1b1b2a1b7 13 23 14 11 11 13 12 12 11 14 13 30                                                                                                                     

3033 11965 McNeely  R1b1b2a1b7 13 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 16 16 17       10 11 19 23 15 15 18 17 35 39 12 12                                                             

3034 39649 Cooley  R1b1b2a1b7 13 23 15 11 10 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9 10 11 11 26 14 19 29 15 15 17 17       11 10 19 22 15 15 19 16 37 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 22 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

3035 6953 Logan  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 13 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 30 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16       10 11 19 23 15 15 17 17 36 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

3036 96227 Donnachie  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17       10 11 19 23 15 15 16 17 37 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 20 13 13 11 13 10 11 12 12

3037 N67557 Darby  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 14 13 30                                                                                                                     

3038 N34131 Egan  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 10 11 17 12 12 12 14 13 30                                                                                                                     

3039 40886 Nolen  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 10 11 17 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 15 17       11 11 19 23 15 15 20 16 36 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12

3041 100141 Nolen  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 10 11 17 12 12 12 14 13 31 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 17 17       11 11 19 23 15 15 20 16 36 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12

3042 N67046 Davidson  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 11 10 15 12 12 11 13 13 29                                                                                                                     

3043 76980 Nicholas  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 10 10 11 11 25 14 19 29 15 16 17 17       10 11 19 23 15 15 18 18 37 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 20 23 16 10 12 13 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

3044 98194 Gann  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 30 20 9 10 11 11 25 14 19 29 15 15 16 16       11 11 19 23 16 14 17 17 37 41 12 13                                                             

3045 N43549 Landers  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 31 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15 15 16 17       12 11 19 23 16 15 15 18 36 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 18 10 12 13 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

3046 117048 Ryall  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 12 25 15 19 30 15 16 17 18       11 11 19 22 16 15 17 18 37 39 12 12                                                             

3047 39847 McGill  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 11 11 16 12 12 11 13 13 28 18 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15 16 16 17       11 11 19 23 15 15 17 15 36 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 10 12 14 12

3048 23260 Baird  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 24 14 19 33 15 15 17 17       11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 35 39 12 12                                                             

3049 N14983 Berlin  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 15 9 9 10 11 25 15 19 30 14 15 16 17       11 11 19 22 14 15 18 16 38 39 12 12                                                             

3050 114209 Campbell  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 15 10 10 11 12 12 11 12 14 28 16 9 9 11 11 24 15 21 28 15 15 17 17       11 12 19 23 14 15 18 17 36 39 12 12                                                             

3051  110656 Hayes  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 15 10 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 18 10 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 13 17 17 17       11 11 19 23 16 15 17 20 36 36 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22 23 16 10 12 12 18 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 13 12

3052 N47554 Hays  R1b1b2a1b7c 13 24 15 10 12 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 18 10 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 13 17 17 17       11 11 19 23 16 15 17 20 35 36 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 22 23 16 10 12 12 18 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 13 12

3053 56587 Owens  R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 14 30 15 9 9 11 11 25 14 19 30 14 14 15 17       10 11 19 23 15 14 17 16 36 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 21 23 16 10 12 12 13 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 13 12 11 12 12

3054 N57121 O. (RBCMQ) O'Toole (adopted surname) R1b1b2a1b7 13 24 15 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 17 17       11 11 19 23 15 15 18 15 36 38 12 12                                                             

3055 E2235 May  R1b1b2a1b7 13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 12 28 17 9 10 12 11 25 15 19 30 15 16 16 17       11 11 19 19 17 15 17 18 36 38 12 12                                                             

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« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2008, 10:42:22 AM »

Here's my post about native Irish names from DNA-Forums, under R1b-U152

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=5611

Thanks,  Miles

His response to your post was bogus. There is NO evidence there is anything remotely "viking" about U152 in the British Isles.

After nearly four years of testing for U152 (first as S28), no more than a handful of Scandinavians who are U152+ has been found. We had more P312+ U152- Scandinavians in our first couple of months than U152 has drummed up in almost four years!

Faux himself maintains U152 in Central and Western Europe is "La Tene Celt." If that is the case, then are we to believe the "La Tene Celts" stopped at the Channel and waited a thousand years or more for the vikings to bring U152 to Britain?

Preposterous.
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« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2008, 04:02:33 PM »

Here's my post about native Irish names from DNA-Forums, under R1b-U152

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=5611

Thanks,  Miles
Well I see your post has stirred up a hornet's nest over there, with threats of deleting posts, etc. Honestly I was hoping for an intelligent discussion instead.
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« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2008, 07:41:36 PM »

Here's my post about native Irish names from DNA-Forums, under R1b-U152

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=5611

Thanks,  Miles
Well I see your post has stirred up a hornet's nest over there, with threats of deleting posts, etc. Honestly I was hoping for an intelligent discussion instead.

That person has an agenda in which he has invested a lot of emotion. He is not capable of dispassionate discussion where it is concerned.
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