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rms2
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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2009, 08:07:39 PM »

Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).

I think it would be interesting to see if those Irish and Norwegian lineages which are very distinct from each other, have matches in the Pfalz area...

I've run the haplotypes in Ysearch and, unless I've missed something, I don't see that.

The ancestor of one of our Finns did have the surname Brandt (he also went by "Brandström"), and Brandt is a pretty well known German surname. But a couple of his closest matches are another Finn, Sutinen, and a Hungarian, Porosz.
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2009, 08:11:06 PM »

Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).
It is interesting to me that Rhineland-Palatinate (German: Rheinland-Pfalz) is the area just north of the low mountain range of the Black Forest.   If pioneers with herds and wagons were heading west up the upper reaches of the Danube River, they'd run into the Black Forest.  If they turned north and skirted the Black Forest they'd end up in Rhineland-Palatinate and the Rhine River Valley.   Do I have my terrain/geography correct?
.... although we should bear this in mind. The Rhineland-Palatinate of course is a major source out migration that might be all there is to it.



You do have your geography right, but recall that the Black Forest is in Baden-Württemberg, and it is a close second to Rheinland-Pfalz when it comes to R-L21*.
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2009, 07:47:41 AM »

The ancestor of one of our Finns did have the surname Brandt (he also went by "Brandström"), and Brandt is a pretty well known German surname. But a couple of his closest matches are another Finn, Sutinen, and a Hungarian, Porosz.

"Porosz" in Hungarian means "Prussian" thus German. Prussia was what is now Brandenburg, Berlin, and now Western Poland + Northeast Poland + Kaliningrad area. However, in 1815, Kingdom of Prussia got the Rhineland as well, so our Hungarian L-21 can easily originate from there...
I have no explanation for Sutinen.
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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2009, 10:01:39 AM »

Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).
It is interesting to me that Rhineland-Palatinate (German: Rheinland-Pfalz) is the area just north of the low mountain range of the Black Forest.   If pioneers with herds and wagons were heading west up the upper reaches of the Danube River, they'd run into the Black Forest.  If they turned north and skirted the Black Forest they'd end up in Rhineland-Palatinate and the Rhine River Valley.   Do I have my terrain/geography correct?.... 
You do have your geography right, but recall that the Black Forest is in Baden-Württemberg, and it is a close second to Rheinland-Pfalz when it comes to R-L21*.
What I was thinking is that since the Black Forest area looks big, rather that penetrating it and going into Baden-Württemberg in a big way, perhaps some Bell Beaker pioneers moved north and west, skirting the edge of the Black Forest area, which looks like means you are on the margins of Baden-Württermberg.  When you get to the northern edge of the Black Forest it looks like you are in the Rhine River Valley and standing on Rheinland-Palentinate ground.   Perhaps this was a productive agriculture area.  Is that true? 
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2009, 10:03:09 AM »

I'm reposting the list to fix Roland's entry. He has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, which has enabled me to find out that his ancestor came from Heidelberg in Baden-Württemberg. He's on the R-L21* Map in the correct spot now.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland

Do we have Ysearch ID's for these guys?  I'm curious if there are any particular "clustering" patterns that can be picked up.
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2009, 11:40:20 AM »

Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).

I think it would be interesting to see if those Irish and Norwegian lineages which are very distinct from each other, have matches in the Pfalz area...
The ancestor of one of our Finns did have the surname Brandt (he also went by "Brandström"), and Brandt is a pretty well known German surname. But a couple of his closest matches are another Finn, Sutinen, and a Hungarian, Porosz.
I can't find Sutinen on his YSearch matches. Interestingly, Brandt (YSearch TSDMK) also matches many other people:
McDonald, Scotland, genetic distance 5/55 markers.
Campos, Spain gd 3/37
Kenney, Ireland gd 4/37.
McDowell, Ireland gd 4/37
McKenzie, Scotland gd 4/37
Brown, England gd 5/42
MacPherson, Scotland gd 5/37
Lebrija, Scotland 5/37
Robertson, Scotland gd 5/37
Beatty, Ireland 5/37
There are many more who have place of origin unknown. It's a remarkable number of close matches.
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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2009, 07:31:55 PM »

You have to run him for 25 markers to pick up 25-marker neighbors.

And yes, many L21+ haplotypes are rather typical and WAMHish, with all sorts of neighbors, even some outside the subclade.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 08:06:56 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2009, 07:34:10 PM »

Do we have Ysearch ID's for these guys?  I'm curious if there are any particular "clustering" patterns that can be picked up.

If you click on the placemarks on the R-L21* Map, balloons with ancestral and YSearch info appear.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 07:39:58 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2009, 11:17:22 PM »

Sutinen's close matches in Southern Scotland could also be indicative of  historical Norse-Gael settlement there. That could be one relationship to consider.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



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« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2009, 07:23:59 AM »

I just found out about another German R-L21* in the Ridenour Project, kit 26916, here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RidenourY=DNASurnameProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

The most distant ancestor is listed as Ludwig Lewis Widener, born about 1730 in Germany. "Lewis" is just the English version of the German given name Ludwig.
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rms2
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« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2009, 09:27:22 PM »

I just found out about another German R-L21* in the Ridenour Project, kit 26916, here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RidenourY=DNASurnameProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

The most distant ancestor is listed as Ludwig Lewis Widener, born about 1730 in Germany. "Lewis" is just the English version of the German given name Ludwig.


This man is also listed on the Widener DNA Project, whose "Background" page goes into more detail, giving the ancestral surname as Weidner and identifying the ship on which the immigrant Ludwig Weidner traveled to North America, etc.

See Roman numeral IV here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Whitener/default.aspx

Weidner is a pretty widespread surname in Germany.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 10:19:34 AM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2009, 10:50:01 PM »

It's interesting his ancestor migrated to North Carolina from Pennsylvania. My Schaefer lineage (maternal grandfather) settled in Rowan County, NC - my hometown.

I wonder if they knew each other! Lol
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 10:50:20 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



rms2
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2009, 08:34:24 AM »

It's interesting his ancestor migrated to North Carolina from Pennsylvania. My Schaefer lineage (maternal grandfather) settled in Rowan County, NC - my hometown.

I wonder if they knew each other! Lol


I believe there were quite a few German immigrants who settled in North Carolina.

Anyway, Mr. Widner (ancestral surname Weidner) has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. I have asked him by email if he knows where in Germany his ancestor came from.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 08:38:09 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2009, 12:06:45 PM »

Time to update the list:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen


#18, Tiedemann, is a new one in YSearch, and he is way up north in Wolken's neck of the woods. I have emailed him and invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

It is interesting that Tiedemann's most distant ancestor came from Heinbockel, and that town's Wappen (Coat of Arms) features a megalithic monument and what appears to be a beaker pot!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg

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« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2009, 06:45:42 PM »

Time to update the list:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen


#18, Tiedemann, is a new one in YSearch, and he is way up north in Wolken's neck of the woods. I have emailed him and invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

It is interesting that Tiedemann's most distant ancestor came from Heinbockel, and that town's Wappen (Coat of Arms) features a megalithic monument and what appears to be a beaker pot!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Heinbockel.svg




Tiedemann joined the R-L21 Plus Project today.
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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2009, 07:16:02 PM »

Updating the list to add Kastler (YSearch KG5TR) and Heil (YSearch 8DBHJ). Kastler's ancestor came from Wahlern, Switzerland, and Heil's came from Frankfurt, Germany.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2009, 07:49:05 PM »

Another update to add one more: Reininger, whose ancestor came from Stuttgart.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
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« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2009, 08:50:00 PM »

A day or two ago I was looking at an R-L21 Plus Project member's y-dna matches. He has a number of exact 12-marker matches with men with German-looking surnames. No big deal: I usually don't take 12-marker matches too seriously. But then I took a look at the Haplotree/My Matches page and discovered that this same man has an exact 12-marker match in FTDNA's database with an R-L21* (R1b1b2a1b5) who lists Germany as his ancestral country of origin.

Since none of the names on the y-dna matches list were known to me, this must be a new German R-L21* who is not yet a member of the project. So I wrote FTDNA and asked them to email the man and invite him to join the project, which they did.

I haven't heard from him yet and I may not ever.

This has happened to me a number of times. I have discovered new R-L21* in Denmark, the Netherlands, Croatia, and now in Germany and have had FTDNA contact them for me. Thus far only two such contacts have actually joined the project, and those were Ammerlaan of the Netherlands and Loncharich of Croatia.

It's frustrating. I dunno, though; maybe this new R-L21* will discover the email from FTDNA in a day or two and join.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 11:18:40 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2009, 12:50:30 AM »

Another update to add one more: Reininger, whose ancestor came from Stuttgart.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg

I'm not seeing "19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland".  I must be going blind.  What's his kit #?
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2009, 07:17:37 PM »

A day or two ago I was looking at an R-L21 Plus Project member's y-dna matches. He has a number of exact 12-marker matches with men with German-looking surnames. No big deal: I usually don't take 12-marker matches too seriously. But then I took a look at the Haplotree/My Matches page and discovered that this same man has an exact 12-marker match in FTDNA's database with an R-L21* (R1b1b2a1b5) who lists Germany as his ancestral country of origin.

Since none of the names on the y-dna matches list were known to me, this must be a new German R-L21* who is not yet a member of the project. So I wrote FTDNA and asked them to email the man and invite him to join the project, which they did.

I haven't heard from him yet and I may not ever.

This has happened to me a number of times. I have discovered new R-L21* in Denmark, the Netherlands, Croatia, and now in Germany and have had FTDNA contact them for me. Thus far only two such contacts have actually joined the project, and those were Ammerlaan of the Netherlands and Loncharich of Croatia.

It's frustrating. I dunno, though; maybe this new R-L21* will discover the email from FTDNA in a day or two and join.
I find it especually frustrating as there are some who are constantly looking for ways to explain away and minize the number and significance of L21 on the continent.
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« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2009, 09:13:06 AM »


I'm not seeing "19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland".  I must be going blind.  What's his kit #?


Kastler never joined the project. He is R-L21* and originally had his YSearch entry listed that way (R1b1b2a1b5). After I contacted him by email a couple of times, he changed his entry to "R1b1b2". Guess he decided he did not want to join the project and that by changing his Ysearch entry (KG5TR) no one would bother him about being L21+.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 09:13:41 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2009, 01:12:45 PM »

I find it especually frustrating as there are some who are constantly looking for ways to explain away and minize the number and significance of L21 on the continent.

Yes, it is very frustrating. Vince Vizachero mentioned recently on Rootsweb that the numbers of test subjects in FTDNA's database with y-dna ancestors from Germany, France, Italy, and Switzerland (he might have added one or two other countries, but I can't recall) together do not equal half of the subjects from the British Isles. It is well to keep that in mind.

By the way, I think our new German R-L21* has joined the R-L21 Plus Project; at least the surname, Sigman, is German. The only problem is that the listed most distant ancestor was born in the USA, so Sigman is with me and so many others in the "Colonial" category.

Spelled Sigmann, the surname is most common in Baden-Württemberg and Rheinland-Pfalz, which are both hotspots for L21, and also in neighboring Alsace in France.
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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2009, 10:26:16 PM »

I find it especually frustrating as there are some who are constantly looking for ways to explain away and minize the number and significance of L21 on the continent.

Yes, it is very frustrating. Vince Vizachero mentioned recently on Rootsweb that the numbers of test subjects in FTDNA's database with y-dna ancestors from Germany, France, Italy, and Switzerland (he might have added one or two other countries, but I can't recall) together do not equal half of the subjects from the British Isles. It is well to keep that in mind.

By the way, I think our new German R-L21* has joined the R-L21 Plus Project; at least the surname, Sigman, is German. The only problem is that the listed most distant ancestor was born in the USA, so Sigman is with me and so many others in the "Colonial" category.

Spelled Sigmann, the surname is most common in Baden-Württemberg and Rheinland-Pfalz, which are both hotspots for L21, and also in neighboring Alsace in France.
I'm not sure that the FTDNA screens and data columns support it, but what do you think of adding another "column" or category view, "probable surname heritage?" This would not eliminate the genealogical origin, and could be prone to some errors, but everything is.
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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2009, 11:10:13 PM »

I'm not sure that the FTDNA screens and data columns support it, but what do you think of adding another "column" or category view, "probable surname heritage?" This would not eliminate the genealogical origin, and could be prone to some errors, but everything is.

I've thought about doing something like that, but I can't see how I could do it without opening a big can of worms.

It especially occurred to me to do it in the case of guys with solid French surnames (like Chartier and Delahoussaye, for examples) and y-dna ancestors from places like Quebec and Louisiana. They are pretty sure their y-dna immigrant ancestors came from France, but they cannot name the immigrant or his hometown.

But I guess it is probably safest just to stick with what I do now.

There is my case, too, to consider. I can't get my paper trail out of North America, but I have a 65/67 match with a man born in England.
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« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2009, 12:02:31 PM »

Updating the list:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
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