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Author Topic: German R-L21*  (Read 19625 times)
rms2
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« on: November 27, 2008, 10:56:13 AM »

Thus far there are three German R-L21*s that I know about:

1) Lurz - Placemark 1 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below

2) Krueger - Placemark 34 on the R-L21* Map

3) Marth - Placemark 37 on the R-L21* Map

We have a few members of German descent in the R-P312 and Subclades Project presently awaiting L21 results. Hopefully all or at least some of them will be L21+.
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secherbernard
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2008, 11:41:31 AM »

On the map only one is german, the two others are from poland and romania.
Is the point on the map corresponding to their oldest known paternal ancester?
If yes, why do you say there are german?

Bernard
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mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

rms2
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2008, 06:40:00 AM »

On the map only one is german, the two others are from poland and romania.
Is the point on the map corresponding to their oldest known paternal ancester?
If yes, why do you say there are german?

Bernard

Krueger's ancestor was born in what was once Germany but is now part of Poland. His ancestry is ethnic German. We have another member whose ancestor came from the same area who is also German, Mannigel. A border that shifted after World War II does not change Krueger's ancestor from German to Polish.

Dr. Krahn's ancestor, surname Lurz, belonged to a group of Germans who moved to Romania. He is an ethnic German, too, and it would be inaccurate to characterize him as a "Romanian." The group to which Dr. Krahn's ancestor belonged maintained its German language and customs and married amongst themselves. They did not assimilate with the surrounding Romanian people.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 07:27:40 AM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2008, 09:13:39 PM »

I used to have a neighbor of Romanian German origin. She always maintained they referred to themselves as "Saxons" rather than Germans. I don't know how accurate the identification was.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2008, 01:48:25 PM »

Of the ten Germans I know of who have L21 results - and I am counting Zenker, Mannigel, Krueger and Lurz as Germans, despite their locations on the maps - five are L21+:

1. Hammann (GG3ZW)
2. Marth (6PF58)
3. Kepler (T9UTE)
4. Krueger (No YSearch ID yet)
5. Lurz (6C3CZ)

Ten is a small sample size, but it's all we've got for now. Anyway, L21+ is currently running at 50% of the R-P312 (X M153, SRY2627, M222, U152) in Germany, which is about the same rate it's running in England.

If we add Meili, a Swiss-German, then 6 of 11 are L21+.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 01:50:36 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2008, 03:14:56 PM »

We just added another German L21+ a few minutes ago: Fix, who traces his ancestry to Bundenbach, near Wiesbaden in Western Germany.

He is in our "Unassigned Members" category right now because he is still waiting on an M222 result.
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rms2
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 08:54:33 AM »

We have added another German R-L21* to the project, surname Wigand. He traces his most distant y ancestor to Wuerzburg in Bavaria, which, interestingly, was the site of a Celtic settlement and hillfort dated to at least 1,000 BC.

He is represented by Placemark 80 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below and also on our project's "Results" page (second map).

I could be wrong, but I think we are getting enough Germans who are L21+ that it's becoming difficult to chalk them all up to errant Brits, Irish and Scots.

And an L21+ whose ancestor came from the site of a Celtic hillfort and settlement dated to 1,000 BC? I think Holmes and Watson (or Crick and Watson) would call that a clue.
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cmblandford
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« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 03:39:59 PM »

This looks to me like western Germany Halstat Celt which I think fits nicely.  Cunliff has identified remains of the Hallstat in this area and the language connection to Ireland fits.  I do not think the Halstat Celts extended to the norther coast of Germany which seems empty (for now) of L21 but the P Celt evidence in Gaul is clear at least in Brittany.
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Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


rms2
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 09:47:49 PM »

Cunliffe, in his book, The Ancient Celts, has Würzburg listed on one of the maps near the back of the book (p. 301) as a seat of Celtic nobility.
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cmblandford
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2009, 05:58:52 PM »

In reading Cunliffe, I do not get the impression he felt the Atlantic Crescent was a significant migration route.  I think he saw it as primarily a trade route, stimulated by metal trade, that led to cultural exchange and included commonality in language, certain artifacts etc.  The Celts certainly were a main player in this.  However, the migration of L21+ could follow a totally different route, that is, the central Europe route to the British Isles.  So the L21+ population of the British Isles could have facilitated the commerce between Ireland, south western England, coastal France and Iberia and spread Celtic ethnicity.  But, right now, I sure like the Hallstatt groups of western Germany as at least an intermediate point in L21+ movement toward the British Isles.  The archeological findings show very significant remains there.       
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 06:30:17 PM by cmblandford » Logged

Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


rms2
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2009, 10:42:21 PM »

Very true.

We had another German go L21+ today: Wolken, whose ancestor came from Esens in Ostfriesland.

He's still waiting on an M222 verdict, so for now he remains in our "Unassigned Members" category.

Fix, whom I mentioned earlier above, whose ancestor came from Bundenbach, has gone M222- and so is R-L21*.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 10:45:09 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2009, 09:36:37 PM »

Very true.

We had another German go L21+ today: Wolken, whose ancestor came from Esens in Ostfriesland.

He's still waiting on an M222 verdict, so for now he remains in our "Unassigned Members" category.

Fix, whom I mentioned earlier above, whose ancestor came from Bundenbach, has gone M222- and so is R-L21*.

Wolken got his M222- verdict and thus is R-L21*.
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rms2
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2009, 10:57:25 PM »

We just added another German R-L21*: Bronk, placemark 97 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2009, 10:01:31 PM »

I neglected to mention a new German R-L21* result that came in on Friday evening because he hadn't yet answered my email about his most distant y ancestor.

Anyway, the surname is Schneider, from Rheinland-Pfalz, Placemark 107 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.

He's in the R-P312 and Subclades Project but hasn't yet joined the R-L21 Plus Project (I'm encouraging him to do so).
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rms2
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2009, 08:45:07 AM »

I neglected to mention a new German R-L21* result that came in on Friday evening because he hadn't yet answered my email about his most distant y ancestor.

Anyway, the surname is Schneider, from Rheinland-Pfalz, Placemark 107 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.

He's in the R-P312 and Subclades Project but hasn't yet joined the R-L21 Plus Project (I'm encouraging him to do so).

Okay, he joined the R-L21 Plus Project, too.
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rms2
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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2009, 07:40:54 AM »

Here is a breakdown of our German R-L21* (L21+) project members, by Land (state), south to north:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland


If I included Meili (a German Swiss from Zürich) in the group that would bring the total to 11.

Hopefully I haven't left anyone out.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 10:10:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2009, 08:24:09 PM »

We added a new German R-L21* to the list today: Hannold (original spelling possibly Hanold).

His ancestor's exact birthplace in Germany is unknown for now.

The World Names Profiler shows that Hanold is most common in Baden-Württemberg, Bayern, Sachsen-Anhalt, Brandenburg, Berlin, and Schleswig-Holstein.
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rms2
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2009, 10:14:50 PM »

We added a new German R-L21* to the R-L21 Plus Project today: ancestral surname Puderbach from Niederraden in Rheinland-Pfalz near the Luxembourg border.

So here's the updated list, including Meili, since he's German-Swiss:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz


Rheinland-Pfalz is maintaining its L21+ lead, with five of the 13 entries.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 10:23:25 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2009, 09:49:49 AM »

We added a new German R-L21* to the R-L21 Plus Project today: ancestral surname Puderbach from Niederraden in Rheinland-Pfalz near the Luxembourg border.

So here's the updated list, including Meili, since he's German-Swiss:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz


Rheinland-Pfalz is maintaining its L21+ lead, with five of the 13 entries.


I forgot to mention that the Puderbach entry does not appear on the Y Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project just yet. He initially tested with Genebase and got his SNP testing, including L21, through them. He has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, however, through FTDNA's  conversion offer, and is awaiting the results of a 25-marker FTDNA kit. Once those results come in, the Puderbach entry will appear on the project's Y Results page. I have already added him to my R-L21* Map though.
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rms2
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2009, 11:14:16 AM »

There is a Puderbach, Germany in Rheinland-Pfalz just southeast of Bonn and straight north of Koblenz.

Surely the Puderbach family must have taken its name from that town.

The ethnic German minority in Transylvania to which Lurz (#1 above) belongs originated in the Siebengebirge of Germany. Interestingly, the Siebengebirge region is located just southeast of Bonn, not too far from where many of our other German R-L21* originated.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 11:34:47 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2009, 03:41:13 PM »

Here's the updated list, as of today.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Germany (exact location unknown)
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2009, 04:22:23 PM »

Looks Continental to me!
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rms2
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2009, 07:58:48 AM »

I'm reposting the list to fix Roland's entry. He has joined the R-L21 Plus Project, which has enabled me to find out that his ancestor came from Heidelberg in Baden-Württemberg. He's on the R-L21* Map in the correct spot now.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 08:00:46 AM by rms2 » Logged

Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2009, 08:33:59 AM »

Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).

I think it would be interesting to see if those Irish and Norwegian lineages which are very distinct from each other, have matches in the Pfalz area...
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2009, 09:02:10 AM »

Look how over-represented Rheinland-Pfalz is, considering it's 4 million inhabitants (Bade-W 10 mio; Bayern 12 mio). And Rheinland-Pfalz is exactly the middle Rhine area which we suggested for the origin of L21 (Upper Rhine being U-152 in western Switzerland).
It is interesting to me that Rhineland-Palatinate (German: Rheinland-Pfalz) is the area just north of the low mountain range of the Black Forest.   If pioneers with herds and wagons were heading west up the upper reaches of the Danube River, they'd run into the Black Forest.  If they turned north and skirted the Black Forest they'd end up in Rhineland-Palatinate and the Rhine River Valley.   Do I have my terrain/geography correct?
.... although we should bear this in mind. The Rhineland-Palatinate of course is a major source out migration that might be all there is to it.

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