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Author Topic: German R-L21*  (Read 20471 times)
rms2
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« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2009, 08:20:02 AM »

The more I cross compare the project maps, the more the idea that the large concentration of all the main R1b1b2 clades along the Rhine looks like its down to new-world immigration patterns from Germany while much of the rest of the country looks much more lightlly sampled.  So it makes you wonder if guys like Althoff are really just strays/outliers from the main L21 block to the south or its just sampling issues.  I would guess that the truth lies in between. 

If he had more than 12 markers, it would be a lot easier to try to figure that out.

Personally, I think L21 will be more frequent in Western Germany than elsewhere in Germany, but I think we will see more of it in places like Nordrhein-Westfalen that are northwestern that cannot be attributed to movement within Germany from the Southwest.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2009, 08:40:14 AM »

I suspect you are right and simply because STRs seem to imply that S21 is very high in north Germany.  

I just thought of something.  The one area that is clearly not undersampled is the Rhineland area so any absence or relative lack there is meaningful.  By definition, all S116* people must have done the L21 test and of course all S116 tested ror L21 had the opportunity to be shown to be S116* if they were.  So, I think it can be stated that low S116*relative to L21 (4 agaisnt 16) is a genuine feature of south-west Germany and is not a result of sampling issues.  That feature very much makes it comparable with the (pre-Norman) Irish and is the reverse of what is found in Iberia.  

So, as well as L21 presence, relative S116* absence is another thing that  links the Celtic fringe of the isles and the central European Celtic heartland and divides it from Iberia and Italy.  Its a shame that before all this was discovered that the revisionist idea of genetic contrast between the Atlantic Celts and the Central European Celts or Gauls got so much publicity because it is now looking to be completley wrong.  That was all based on poor deduction from STRs but SNPs now show that the Atlantic Celtis are very much not a grouping with the isles, French and west German Celtis looking more like a grouping, which is far more in line with archaeologucal  expectations.  Even if you just look at the Iron Age, the British and Irish material where it shows exotic influences all relates to the isles, Gaul and the Rhineland.  
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 08:55:01 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2009, 08:46:04 AM »

;
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 08:48:26 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mark Jost
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« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2009, 08:58:42 AM »

So which came first? Trilithons along the Rhine?

Interestingly, Tiedemann's ancestor came from Heinbockel, home to megalithic monuments and beaker artifacts.

Take a look at Heinbockel's coat of arms.


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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mark Jost
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« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2009, 09:21:35 AM »

I create combinded Google maps and created the R-L21/P-312/U152 overlayed back just over three months ago for reference.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/muv3af

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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2009, 10:28:30 AM »

..... Interestingly, Tiedemann's ancestor came from Heinbockel, home to megalithic monuments and beaker artifacts.

Take a look at Heinbockel's coat of arms.
Is someone trying to tell us something?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 11:25:43 AM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2009, 10:35:52 AM »

I create combinded Google maps and created the R-L21/P-312/U152 overlayed back just over three months ago for reference.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/muv3af



An up to date map like that combining the main R1b clades would be useful although your map doesnt totally tally with what I remember from looking at the individual project maps.  At one stage there was a map showing all the S116 clades but I dont think it was kept up to date.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2009, 10:43:15 AM »

Yes the family crest is interesting...although do remember that the only Neolithic stone circle with lintels across the top is stonehenge itself! You do of course get them later in Greece, Egypt etc but they were much later than stonehenge.  They do however think that Neolithic timber circles in the NW of Europe may have had timber lintels. 
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2009, 10:48:39 AM »

Only those projects that have Google pin maps created can be combined and thus mine is limited to that fact.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2009, 12:43:09 PM »

The megaliths in Heinbockel - which is nowhere near the Rhine - are quite small relative to Stonehenge and mark round barrow Beaker graves like the round barrows in Britain. There were some photos on the internet, as I recall. I'll look for them again when I get time.
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rms2
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« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2009, 12:55:09 PM »

An up to date map like that combining the main R1b clades would be useful although your map doesnt totally tally with what I remember from looking at the individual project maps.  At one stage there was a map showing all the S116 clades but I dont think it was kept up to date.

One problem in attempting such a map is that Google limits us to 200 placemarks per map page.

We need some good map-making software.
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rms2
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« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2009, 02:21:08 PM »

I suspect you are right and simply because STRs seem to imply that S21 is very high in north Germany.  

I just thought of something.  The one area that is clearly not undersampled is the Rhineland area so any absence or relative lack there is meaningful.  By definition, all S116* people must have done the L21 test and of course all S116 tested ror L21 had the opportunity to be shown to be S116* if they were.  So, I think it can be stated that low S116*relative to L21 (4 agaisnt 16) is a genuine feature of south-west Germany and is not a result of sampling issues.  That feature very much makes it comparable with the (pre-Norman) Irish and is the reverse of what is found in Iberia.

I agree. Any way one slices it, it seems L21 is well represented in SW Germany.  

So, as well as L21 presence, relative S116* absence is another thing that  links the Celtic fringe of the isles and the central European Celtic heartland and divides it from Iberia and Italy.  Its a shame that before all this was discovered that the revisionist idea of genetic contrast between the Atlantic Celts and the Central European Celts or Gauls got so much publicity because it is now looking to be completley wrong.  That was all based on poor deduction from STRs but SNPs now show that the Atlantic Celtis are very much not a grouping with the isles, French and west German Celtis looking more like a grouping, which is far more in line with archaeologucal  expectations.  Even if you just look at the Iron Age, the British and Irish material where it shows exotic influences all relates to the isles, Gaul and the Rhineland.  

I really agree with that. A lot of damage has been done already by the whole "Celto-Sceptic" thing and even just through the whole "Atlantic Facade" idea. Now people have gotten it into their heads that the Irish are just Basques who drink Guinness and not really Celts at all. It's going to be tough overcoming all that *stuff*.

Now it seems that genetics is vindicating some of the older scholars, at least to the extent that it seems to show an intrusive male presence that was probably responsible for the introduction of Celtic language and culture in the British Isles.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2009, 03:57:47 PM »

You know, I got into the whole genetic genealogy thing right at the time you were head-to-head with that Faux fellow. What I took from that is the haughty attitude people displayed about their own ancestry.

Just thinking about it really makes me tick, because it seems some people want to classify themselves as "superior" in some sort or fashion, and genetics is one tactic they use. It happened with the discovery of U106 (still happens with that bunch) and then U152 and the Faux cadre picked up on the outlying majority of R1b that didn't belong to such a clade were the descendents of slaves.

That Oppenheimer crap needs to be reassigned to the fiction category in the library.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 04:01:16 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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rms2
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« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2009, 08:36:49 PM »

You know, I got into the whole genetic genealogy thing right at the time you were head-to-head with that Faux fellow. What I took from that is the haughty attitude people displayed about their own ancestry.

Just thinking about it really makes me tick, because it seems some people want to classify themselves as "superior" in some sort or fashion, and genetics is one tactic they use. It happened with the discovery of U106 (still happens with that bunch) and then U152 and the Faux cadre picked up on the outlying majority of R1b that didn't belong to such a clade were the descendents of slaves.

That Oppenheimer crap needs to be reassigned to the fiction category in the library.

Yes, I remember well the joys of being one of the "lost asterisk boys".

Actually things have calmed down quite a bit (one of the benefits of getting away from dna forums), but it is certainly true that genetic genealogy is not a non-partisan pursuit!

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2009, 05:39:55 PM »

I think L21s position as a sibling or close cousin clade of S28, the near identical dating and the slowly emerging picture that L21 was also a big clade in the former Gaulish land in south Germany and nothern France has all but removed S28's special status as THE Gaulish clade and you certainly do not hear that kind of claim as much now.  I really do fail to see any difference between the two clades other than that L21 has a slightly more northerly epicentre in the Rhineland and northern France while S28 looks a bit more Alpine centred (but also a Belgic outlier which is a little harder to explain).

German testing in at least the Rhineland is very healthy and there  L21 considerably outnumbers S28 in project testing.  That is important as the Rhineland may be the only place in continental Europe where public testing is really very good.  It is also right in the heart of the richest early La Tene core which ran from Champagne through the Rhineland and south Germany into Bohemia.  So, just how can S28 still be considered THE Gaulish clade??  I think there is growing evidence that in the La Tene hearland of northern Gaul and the Rhineland that L21 is more common than S28.     
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rms2
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« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2009, 09:12:16 PM »

I think L21s position as a sibling or close cousin clade of S28, the near identical dating and the slowly emerging picture that L21 was also a big clade in the former Gaulish land in south Germany and nothern France has all but removed S28's special status as THE Gaulish clade and you certainly do not hear that kind of claim as much now.  I really do fail to see any difference between the two clades other than that L21 has a slightly more northerly epicentre in the Rhineland and northern France while S28 looks a bit more Alpine centred (but also a Belgic outlier which is a little harder to explain).

German testing in at least the Rhineland is very healthy and there  L21 considerably outnumbers S28 in project testing.  That is important as the Rhineland may be the only place in continental Europe where public testing is really very good.  It is also right in the heart of the richest early La Tene core which ran from Champagne through the Rhineland and south Germany into Bohemia.  So, just how can S28 still be considered THE Gaulish clade??  I think there is growing evidence that in the La Tene hearland of northern Gaul and the Rhineland that L21 is more common than S28.     

Makes me really wish they could get some y dna from the Hochdorf Chieftain.

If he turned out to be L21+, we would have to organize a big international R-L21 Plus Project gathering and beerfest.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #91 on: October 05, 2009, 09:41:35 AM »

I found out that the German project has Haplotypes by regions.

http://german-dna.net/Germany%20Map.htm

Not much shown in Bremen and thus could be considered for more testing.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #92 on: October 05, 2009, 10:43:29 AM »

I only see three guys in the Bremen category: one belonging to Haplogroup  J, and the other two R1a.
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« Reply #93 on: October 05, 2009, 10:46:30 AM »

yes, isnt that unbelivable that not one R1b has been tested from there?
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #94 on: October 05, 2009, 11:26:41 AM »

It's just the lack of Germans from Bremen that test. Actually, that's a pretty huge area and could fill the L21 gap from Norway to northern Germany.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


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Mark Jost
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« Reply #95 on: October 05, 2009, 11:40:26 AM »

That was my exact thought as well. Rivers and Coastal areas where I would look.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
NealtheRed
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« Reply #96 on: October 05, 2009, 11:43:36 AM »

Another thing to consider is the proportion of people who test strictly for 12 markers just to know their haplogroup, don't bother deep clade testing and don't get involved in projects like this one.

I have a feeling that number is a slight majority, and the lack of North German results could be testament to that.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



GoldenHind
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« Reply #97 on: October 05, 2009, 02:48:19 PM »

yes, isnt that unbelivable that not one R1b has been tested from there?
Yes, especially as the perceived wisdow is that it should be nearly all U106.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #98 on: October 05, 2009, 02:55:19 PM »

I'm starting to think that U106 is strictly a Frisian group, or mostly (I know it's present all around Europe). If one looks at R1b in Scandinavia, it's mostly P312, with the exception of Denmark (even though Denmark is under-represented). U106's presence there could be due to proximity from Frisia.

We just need more north Germans to test to see who is what there.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



vtilroe
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« Reply #99 on: October 05, 2009, 09:36:30 PM »

^
Don't make me raise my eyebrows at you!  I wouldn't call U106 strictly "Frisian"!
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

That's like calling L21 strictly Irish!

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yDNA: R-U106*


mtDNA: U5a1a1 (Genbank# GQ368895)


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