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rms2
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« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2009, 07:26:45 PM »

Updating the list to add a new one.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
23. Immler - Bayern
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2009, 10:42:27 PM »

What would make sense as far as categorizing these German L-21* folks into regions that might have ancestral affinities?

Originally I started thinking the Rhine River Valley and Southern Germany should be a category and then North Germany (along Benelux, Denmark) another and then East Germany another.  I'm not that familiar with the terrain.  I thought these web sites were interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_regions_of_Germany
http://www.discover-germany.info/germany_regions.htm

I'm thinking I should divide Germany's Federal States into the following natural regions or just use the boundaries as the web site above describes:
Nordostdeutsches Tiefland (Northeast German Plain)
Nordwestdeutsches Tiefland (Northwest German Plain)
Westliche Mittelgelbirge (Western Central Uplands)
Ostliche Mittelgelbirge (Eastern Central Uplands)
Sudwestliche Mittelbirge/Stufenland (South German Scarplands)
Alpenvorland (Alpine Foreland and Alps)

It may be useful to cross current national boundaries when looking at affinities. For example, perhaps the West Central Uplands might have some affinities to France-Lorraine and the South Scarplands might be akin to France-Alsace.  Alpine Foreland and the Alps may have a lot in common with Switzerland.

Any ideas?


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« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2009, 11:37:30 PM »

Updating the list to add a new one.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
23. Immler - Bayern

At one time I had Kolb YS 79UGE FTDNA 19463 on my list of R-L21*.  Did he never do a deep clade test?
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rms2
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« Reply #53 on: September 05, 2009, 08:42:10 AM »


At one time I had Kolb YS 79UGE FTDNA 19463 on my list of R-L21*.  Did he never do a deep clade test?


We had a Kolb in the project for awhile (probably he was the same one), but he got an L21- result.
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rms2
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« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2009, 08:52:23 AM »

What would make sense as far as categorizing these German L-21* folks into regions that might have ancestral affinities?

Originally I started thinking the Rhine River Valley and Southern Germany should be a category and then North Germany (along Benelux, Denmark) another and then East Germany another.  I'm not that familiar with the terrain.  I thought these web sites were interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_regions_of_Germany
http://www.discover-germany.info/germany_regions.htm

I'm thinking I should divide Germany's Federal States into the following natural regions or just use the boundaries as the web site above describes:
Nordostdeutsches Tiefland (Northeast German Plain)
Nordwestdeutsches Tiefland (Northwest German Plain)
Westliche Mittelgelbirge (Western Central Uplands)
Ostliche Mittelgelbirge (Eastern Central Uplands)
Sudwestliche Mittelbirge/Stufenland (South German Scarplands)
Alpenvorland (Alpine Foreland and Alps)

It may be useful to cross current national boundaries when looking at affinities. For example, perhaps the West Central Uplands might have some affinities to France-Lorraine and the South Scarplands might be akin to France-Alsace.  Alpine Foreland and the Alps may have a lot in common with Switzerland.

Any ideas?

There is a very basic, three-part division of Germany:

1. Southern Germany - Mountainous Highlands
2. Middle Germany - Rolling Hills
3. North Germany - Flat Plains to the Sea

Those regions also have divided Germany linguistically:

1. Hochdeutsch - literally "High German" (meaning the German spoken in the highlands)
2. Mitteldeutsch - Central German dialects
3. Plattdeutsch - literally "'Flat' or Low German" (meaning the German spoken in the "flat" North)

I don't mean to speak for him, but a friend of mine who is quite knowledgeable has suggested a possible connection between L21 and the LinearBandKeramik culture, which he says shows a pattern of moving up the Rhine but then turning west into Northern France at about the Middle Rhine. He thinks this is the reason we haven't seen any L21 in Belgium yet.

He could be right, but I think L21 will eventually show up in Belgium; it's just a matter of getting a few more Belgians tested for it.

Thus far, however, the basic distribution of L21 does match the LBK path.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 09:01:47 AM by rms2 » Logged

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2009, 10:02:03 AM »

The theory of the LBK peoples as due to the farmers who escaped the submersion of the Black Sea North shores is very interesting, but thinking to R-L21+ as linked to those people makes us backdate this cluster to 7500 YBP at least and probably before. I agree, having always thought R-L23 much more ancient than many peoples are thinking.
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rms2
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« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2009, 02:02:41 PM »

The theory of the LBK peoples as due to the farmers who escaped the submersion of the Black Sea North shores is very interesting, but thinking to R-L21+ as linked to those people makes us backdate this cluster to 7500 YBP at least and probably before. I agree, having always thought R-L23 much more ancient than many peoples are thinking.

I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.
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« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2009, 10:03:57 PM »

What would make sense as far as categorizing these German L-21* folks into regions that might have ancestral affinities?
There is a very basic, three-part division of Germany:
1. Southern Germany - Mountainous Highlands
2. Middle Germany - Rolling Hills
3. North Germany - Flat Plains to the Sea

Those regions also have divided Germany linguistically:
1. Hochdeutsch - literally "High German" (meaning the German spoken in the highlands)
2. Mitteldeutsch - Central German dialects
3. Plattdeutsch - literally "'Flat' or Low German" (meaning the German spoken in the "flat" North)
.......
Thanks.   Would the following be a decent classification of the current Federal States into those three major regions?  I admit that Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg cover fairly large areas and may extend beyond "mountainous highlands", but I'm just trying to get something that provides a clear definition.

NORTHERN GERMANY:
Bremen
Schleswig-Holstein 
Hamburg
Lower Saxony
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
Berlin
Brandenburg
Saxony

MIDDLE GERMANY:
North Rhine-Westphalia
Rhineland-Palatinate
Saarland
Hesse
Thuringia
Saxony-Anhalt

SOUTHERN GERMANY:
Baden-Württemberg
Bavaria 
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« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2009, 10:32:20 PM »

I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.

RMS2,
That's an interesting hypothesis, one that deserves consideration for sure.  Keep in mind that the TMRCA for P312, U152, L21 all arose nearly concurrently.

I had always written off the LBK as the carrier of P312/L21/U152 for two reasons
1) the geographic pattern doesn't fit, i.e. the LBK original great expansion stopped or at least significantly paused at about Paris.  Also LBK never really moved south and west into Iberia where P312, and at least some L21 did.
2) LBK's great expansion was probably over, 4500 BC, before TMRCA of P312/L21/U152
Quote from: Wikipedia
5500–4500 BC (7500-6500 ybp)
The LBK at maximum extent ranged from about the line of the Seine–Oise (Paris Basin) eastward to the line of the Vistula and upper Dniester, and southward to the line of the upper Danube down to the big bend. An extension ran through the Western Bug river valley, leaped to the valley of the Dniester, and swerved southward from the middle Dniester to the lower Danube in eastern Romania, east of the Carpathians
However, LBK did reach Britain at a later point in time.
Quote from: Wikipedia
4400 BC–3300 BC (6400-3300 ybp)
The construction of the earliest earthwork sites in Britain began during the early Neolithic (c.) in the form of long barrows used for communal burial and the first causewayed enclosures, sites which have parallels on the continent.   
Still seems just a little early for the probable TMRCA range but it could fit.

What do you or your friend think might have caused such a large shift from the continent of L21 folks to Britain?      Just bad weather, but was Britain's climate any better 4400 BC-3300BC for farmers?

Or did round barrow (kurgan) digging, copper tool wielding pastoralists run them out?

Remember, P312/L21/U152 et al form a very bushy tree so their population must have exploded at some point.  It doesn't seem likely to me that their population would have exploded at the same time that they were under climate or invader stress.

I guess a lot hinges on the real age of P312/L21/U152.  No new news there.

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« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2009, 10:44:07 PM »

I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.
Another key point about the geographic distribution of LBK.  The LBK had little impact on Denmark and northern coasts of Germany and Poland.  These areas reportedly stayed Mesolithic (hunter-gatherer) for a longer period of time… but there appears to be a significant population of L21 in Scandinavia.  It doesn't seem likely that the LBK carried L21 to Scandinavia, unless the L21 were just a people in flight.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/eue/ht02eue.htm

I don't know much about climate in Scandinavia.  Was there a period of time during the Neolithic ages when the climate would have been very favorable for farming?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2009, 10:46:05 PM by Mike » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2009, 12:54:03 PM »


Thanks.   Would the following be a decent classification of the current Federal States into those three major regions?  I admit that Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg cover fairly large areas and may extend beyond "mountainous highlands", but I'm just trying to get something that provides a clear definition.

NORTHERN GERMANY:
Bremen
Schleswig-Holstein 
Hamburg
Lower Saxony
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
Berlin
Brandenburg
Saxony

MIDDLE GERMANY:
North Rhine-Westphalia
Rhineland-Palatinate
Saarland
Hesse
Thuringia
Saxony-Anhalt

SOUTHERN GERMANY:
Baden-Württemberg
Bavaria 


That looks about right, except that I think you would be getting into North Germany in the northern part of North-Rhine Westphalia. But if one wants to put each Land into one of the three basic topographic divisions, then what you have laid out is right.
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« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2009, 12:59:47 PM »

I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.

RMS2,
That's an interesting hypothesis, one that deserves consideration for sure.  Keep in mind that the TMRCA for P312, U152, L21 all arose nearly concurrently.

I had always written off the LBK as the carrier of P312/L21/U152 for two reasons
1) the geographic pattern doesn't fit, i.e. the LBK original great expansion stopped or at least significantly paused at about Paris.  Also LBK never really moved south and west into Iberia where P312, and at least some L21 did.
2) LBK's great expansion was probably over, 4500 BC, before TMRCA of P312/L21/U152
Quote from: Wikipedia
5500–4500 BC (7500-6500 ybp)
The LBK at maximum extent ranged from about the line of the Seine–Oise (Paris Basin) eastward to the line of the Vistula and upper Dniester, and southward to the line of the upper Danube down to the big bend. An extension ran through the Western Bug river valley, leaped to the valley of the Dniester, and swerved southward from the middle Dniester to the lower Danube in eastern Romania, east of the Carpathians
However, LBK did reach Britain at a later point in time.
Quote from: Wikipedia
4400 BC–3300 BC (6400-3300 ybp)
The construction of the earliest earthwork sites in Britain began during the early Neolithic (c.) in the form of long barrows used for communal burial and the first causewayed enclosures, sites which have parallels on the continent.   
Still seems just a little early for the probable TMRCA range but it could fit.

What do you or your friend think might have caused such a large shift from the continent of L21 folks to Britain?      Just bad weather, but was Britain's climate any better 4400 BC-3300BC for farmers?

Or did round barrow (kurgan) digging, copper tool wielding pastoralists run them out?

Remember, P312/L21/U152 et al form a very bushy tree so their population must have exploded at some point.  It doesn't seem likely to me that their population would have exploded at the same time that they were under climate or invader stress.

I guess a lot hinges on the real age of P312/L21/U152.  No new news there.

My friend will have to defend the particulars of his LBK idea. I just mentioned it to toss it out there.

I don't think it's necessary to have the LBK go into Iberia for him to be right, though. Movement into Iberia could have come later, via the Celts, and, besides, there doesn't appear to be much L21 in Iberia.

I still gravitate toward Hubert's ideas.

I also tend to hold the heretical view that R1b1b2 is essentially Indo-European.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2009, 07:23:20 AM »

I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.
Another key point about the geographic distribution of LBK.  The LBK had little impact on Denmark and northern coasts of Germany and Poland.  These areas reportedly stayed Mesolithic (hunter-gatherer) for a longer period of time… but there appears to be a significant population of L21 in Scandinavia.  It doesn't seem likely that the LBK carried L21 to Scandinavia, unless the L21 were just a people in flight.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/eue/ht02eue.htm

I don't know much about climate in Scandinavia.  Was there a period of time during the Neolithic ages when the climate would have been very favorable for farming?


The theory that an S116 subclade like L21 represents a mutation that occurred at the western end of the LBK trail does nicely fit both the distributions of clade and the western end of the culture both of which follow the Rhine to its middle reaches then turn sharply west into northern France.  Old maps will show it stopping at Paris but it is now known LBK made it as far as eastern Brittany.  LBK-descended successor cultures would have later expanded into the remainder of coastal northern France and the Low Countries. 

The theory does however have problems in a wider scale.  The main one is the presence of much S116 in non-LBK areas like Iberia, southern France and Italy where the Neolithic was brought by the Cardial culture.   So, there are only two ways that the LBK theory can be maintained, either:

1. S116 must have been present in a culture that was the common root of both LBK and Cardial, perhaps one of the great Balkans early Neolithic cultures and no later than 6000BC. S116 cannot have occurred anywhere west of the Balkans because that is the point where the two cultures parted company and headed west and they did not likely meet again until they both approached the borders of Brittany in NW France 1000 years? later.  L21 on the other hand could have occurred on the LBK trail west, somewhere between the Balkans and the Rhine, a journey that is essentially all along the Danube.   This theory is essentially a version of the pincer movement idea whereby only S116* came along the Med. with Cardial to Italy, Iberia etc while LBK brought a mix of S116* as well as L21, S28 and indeed S21 too through these clades having arisen along the Danube among the S116* folk who had followed that Danubian route west.  One thing is clear.  If L21 did arrive in this period, it was brought by the LBK culture, not the Cardial one.  The distribution you an see on the L21 project amp is very clear.  L21 is very much weighted towards NW Europe and as well as being big in the isles, it seems very likely that L21 lineages are common in northern France and the west and south fringe of Germany.
 
2. Alternatively the (large) presence of S116 clades in Iberia, southern France and Italy must be seen as the result of later movements. 

I would not be too concerned with the lack of LBK as such in the isles or Scandinavia or indeed the presence of L21 in Scandinavia as both the British Isles Early Neolithic and the Funnel Beaker culture of northern continental Europe were at least partly created by intrusions of farmers from LBK- descended post-LBK Neolithic cultures of northern France, the Low countries, Germany etc and would surely have involved intrusion of LBK descended bloodlines, perhaps (if this theory is correct) L21 among them.

Truth is nobody really knows the answer while representative Europe-wide distribution maps of deep clade tested R1b are absent and there is no agreement on y-DNA dating.  Its also true that no single-wave explanation neatly explains all R1b distribution.  For example, while the Early Neolithic theory needs a bit of special pleading to explain the S116 along the Med, equally the large amount of L21 in Scandinavia does not especially well link with the alternative beaker theory without similar special pleading. 
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« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2009, 07:34:09 AM »

I don't think my friend believes L21 is as old as the LBK culture but rather that L21 arose among the LBK folk.
Another key point about the geographic distribution of LBK.  The LBK had little impact on Denmark and northern coasts of Germany and Poland.  These areas reportedly stayed Mesolithic (hunter-gatherer) for a longer period of time… but there appears to be a significant population of L21 in Scandinavia.  It doesn't seem likely that the LBK carried L21 to Scandinavia, unless the L21 were just a people in flight.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/02/eue/ht02eue.htm

I don't know much about climate in Scandinavia.  Was there a period of time during the Neolithic ages when the climate would have been very favorable for farming?


 

I would think that founder effect as a small group crossed the channel would be the most likely explanation for high L21 in the isles.  However, I think it should be noted that the L21 numbers in Northern France, where the groups that crossed to the isles almost certainly came from, is apparently very high indeed and it strikes me that it may actually be higher there than in parts of England directly across the channel.
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« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2009, 05:14:58 PM »

Updating the list to add a new one.

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
23. Immler - Bayern
24. Haupt - Bayern


Haupt has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. Unfortunately, FTDNA's IT department is updating our web site right now, so I can't get into the proper member subgroupings to move Haupt into the Germany category. When they are finished, I will move him into that category.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 02:07:06 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2009, 07:30:09 PM »

L21 Germany can be defined as Germany west of the Rhine as far south as the junction at the city of Mainz.  Then from that point the Main River forms the L21 boundary with all L21 falling to the south of it.  So you can define the L21 area of Germany as the area that is west of the Rhine and/or south of the Main.  That L21 area as defined by those river bounfaries is identical to the combined area of the Rhineland Pfalz (Palatinate), Baden-Wurtemberg and Bavaria.  

That corresponds astonishingly well with the area of Germany with the most certain and longest lasting Celtic archaeological, historical and linguistic traces.   In contrast, the area that is both to the east of the Rhine and to the north of the Main river sees traces of Celtic culture rapidly decrease although there is certainly not a totally sharp border and there was an intermediate zone in areas like Thuringia which may have been Celtic once but where hegemony was possibly lost to Germanic tribes somewhat earlier.  

The same area is also high in S28 as far as I understand  It is hard not to conclude those two sibling or close cousin S116 clades of near identical age were a big element of the Celitc male lines of the area although I suspect they arrived in the Neolithic. It will be interesting some day to see if the proposed north-south divide in Germany between the S28 (to which we can now add L21) on the one hand and S21 on the other  stands up as an echo of the (proto?) Celtic-Germanic boundary in Germany.  
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« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2009, 08:20:39 PM »

I forgot to add that later the Romans helped to preserve a roughly similar boundary between the (Romanised) Celts of western and southern Germany as discussed in my last post above and the Germanic tribes.  The limes preserved much of the German Celtic heartland but by a desire to linki the Rhine and Danube by the Limes they cut out the northern part of Bavaria and little bits of Rhineland Pflaz and Baden Wurtemberg, thus slighly shrinking the non-Germanic area of Germany.  The Roman border here would obviously have had a further effect in preserving the old Celtic population (albeit Romanised) within it, certainly buyng them several centuries from German invasion, while at the same time ceding the area beyond the limes to the Germans which probably led to greater dilution of the old Celtic lines by Germanic ones there.   

This page contains a very useful map of the limes which shows the way most (although not all) of the L21 and Celtic part of Germany was included inside the Roman Limes. 
 
 http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/430/multiple=1&unique_number=499
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« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2009, 02:06:33 PM »

Haupt was able to update his most distant ancestor information, so I have edited my last post to include it. It moves his placemark on the R-L21* European Continent Map from Windesheim in Rheinland-Pfalz to Pappenheim in Bayern (Bavaria). He is our fourth Bavarian now, so we are starting to move out a bit toward the east and away from the Rhine.
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« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2009, 07:58:43 PM »

Other than the two who are at the north end of Germany Tiedemann - Niedersachsen and Wolken - Ostfriesland, most are in the SW Germany area, same area of the of the Roman defence line Limes.

http://www.limes-in-deutschland.de/kastelle.html


I forgot to add that later the Romans helped to preserve a roughly similar boundary between the (Romanised) Celts of western and southern Germany as discussed in my last post above and the Germanic tribes.  The limes preserved much of the German Celtic heartland but by a desire to linki the Rhine and Danube by the Limes they cut out the northern part of Bavaria and little bits of Rhineland Pflaz and Baden Wurtemberg, thus slighly shrinking the non-Germanic area of Germany.  The Roman border here would obviously have had a further effect in preserving the old Celtic population (albeit Romanised) within it, certainly buyng them several centuries from German invasion, while at the same time ceding the area beyond the limes to the Germans which probably led to greater dilution of the old Celtic lines by Germanic ones there.   

This page contains a very useful map of the limes which shows the way most (although not all) of the L21 and Celtic part of Germany was included inside the Roman Limes. 
 
 http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/430/multiple=1&unique_number=499
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2009, 08:27:46 PM »

Most of them are well west of the limes, in other words, inside the old province of Germania Superior. A couple of them, Immler and Haupt, are down near the Danube (Donau) in Raetia, and a couple, Wigand and Müller, are well east of the Roman limes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karte_limes.jpg

Krüger's ancestor came from Posen, which is modern Poznan, Poland.

Of course, Tiedemann and Wolken, whose ancestors came from Niedersachsen and Ostfriesland (in modern Niedersachsen) respectively, were mentioned. Interestingly, Tiedemann's ancestor came from Heinbockel, home to megalithic monuments and beaker artifacts.

Take a look at Heinbockel's coat of arms.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 08:46:33 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2009, 06:05:15 AM »

Here is another Limes map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Limes_Germanicus_2nd_c.png

What strikes me is the relativley modest amount of time that this was a Roman frontier. Before and after the brief phase where this was the border, the emperial border here was just the Rhine and Danube rivers with the wedge in between abandoned.  I know there are some who think the Roman soldiers should leave big genetic impacts and even some people who try and link L21 with the German Limes but if that was true then why are there not similar huge impacts along Hadrian's Wall in Britain? 

It is also worth noting that the really major concnetratoin of L21 detected to date in the Rhineland Palatinate which is mainly west of the Rhine The German L21 concentration falls of both sides of the Limes. Also, the epicentre of the concentration is in Rhineland Pfalz which was both well west of the Limes and across the Middle Rhine from it.  So, it is fairly ridiculous to try and link the L21 there and the Limes.  The Rhineland Pfalz mainly remained within the empire even when the boundary moved from the Limes back to the natural bounday of the Rhine.  So, it seems to me that L21 pre-dated the Limes and that its most major German concentration was well west of the Limes.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2009, 07:11:24 AM »

 .
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 07:49:50 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2009, 07:23:24 AM »

Well, here is something else to help us "think outside the limes" (to adapt a tiresome cliche), a new German R-L21* (#25) to add to the list:

1. Lurz - Draas, Romania (ethnic German minority)
2. Marth - Baden-Württemberg
3. Kepler - Baden-Württemberg
4. Hammann - Rheinland-Pfalz
5. Wigand -  Bayern (Bavaria)
6. Fix - Rheinland-Pfalz
7. Schneider - Rheinland-Pfalz
8. Bronk - Rheinland-Pfalz
9. Krüger - Posen (modern Poznan, Poland)
10. Wolken - Ostfriesland
11. Meili - Zürich, Switzerland
12. Hannold - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is common in Baden-Württemberg)
13. Puderbach - Rheinland-Pfalz
14. Müller - Bayern
15. Roland - Baden-Württemberg
16. Fankhauser - Trub, Switzerland
17. Weidner - Germany (exact location unknown, but the surname is most common in Thüringen and Bayern)
18. Tiedemann - Niedersachsen
19. Kastler - Wahlern, Switzerland
20. Heil - Hessen
21. Reininger - Baden-Württemberg
22. Becker - Rheinland-Pfalz
23. Immler - Bayern
24. Haupt - Bayern
25. Althoff - Nordrhein-Westfalen


Herr Althoff is an actual German citizen (you can tell by his E-series kit number), not an American or a Canadian with German ancestry (not that there is anything wrong with being an American or a Canadian with German ancestry). His most distant y-dna ancestor came from North Germany, from Darfeld, Rosendahl, to be precise.

It's interesting because, if you recall (and if I recall correctly), Hubert said the Goidels came mostly from Nordrhein-Westfalen.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 07:26:27 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2009, 08:12:31 AM »

The more I cross compare the project maps, the more the idea that the large concentration of all the main R1b1b2 clades along the Rhine looks like its down to new-world immigration patterns from Germany while much of the rest of the country looks much more lightlly sampled.  So it makes you wonder if guys like Althoff are really just strays/outliers from the main L21 block to the south or its just sampling issues.  I would guess that the truth lies in between. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2009, 08:19:01 AM »

I have to say, although they tend to be from the same area of Germany, the flow of German and German heritage L21 is pretty impressive and in huge contrast to France (where L21 is however actually much more common) and of course to Spain, Italy etc where this is probably more to do with it actually being relatively uncommon. 
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