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Author Topic: German R-L21*  (Read 20389 times)
Mike Walsh
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« Reply #150 on: April 26, 2010, 09:08:49 AM »

I suspect  R1b1b2a1b5 was in Scandinavia well before the Vikings.
If so.. some Vikings/Norse/Normans could very well be as such.
I don't think there is any question of that, given the rate of R-L21 being found in Norway and give the correlation of Bell Beaker distribution (which includes Nowray) and parts of R-P312.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #151 on: April 26, 2010, 10:43:50 AM »

Right. And there is no reason to think that no L21 existed amongst the Geats either. My extended family (L21+) comes from Hisingen, an island off the west coast of Vastergotland. It lies right on the Skagerrak.

We just need a sample that reveals the normal distribution of subclades in Southern Scandinavia.

I'm thinking that the proto-Germanic culture split off from the proto-Celtic culture and brought R1a, R1b and subclades to areas that developed into Germanic proper.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #152 on: April 26, 2010, 11:27:36 AM »

Right. And there is no reason to think that no L21 existed amongst the Geats either. My extended family (L21+) comes from Hisingen, an island off the west coast of Vastergotland. It lies right on the Skagerrak.

We just need a sample that reveals the normal distribution of subclades in Southern Scandinavia.

I'm thinking that the proto-Germanic culture split off from the proto-Celtic culture and brought R1a, R1b and subclades to areas that developed into Germanic proper.
Agreed. One of my closest matches is guy in Sweden who traces his family back 500 years to Ostergotland, which is adjacent to the Baltic.  There are a couple of R-L21* Finns as well.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #153 on: April 26, 2010, 11:40:12 AM »

Right. And there is no reason to think that no L21 existed amongst the Geats either. My extended family (L21+) comes from Hisingen, an island off the west coast of Vastergotland. It lies right on the Skagerrak.

We just need a sample that reveals the normal distribution of subclades in Southern Scandinavia.

I'm thinking that the proto-Germanic culture split off from the proto-Celtic culture and brought R1a, R1b and subclades to areas that developed into Germanic proper.
Agreed. One of my closest matches is guy in Sweden who traces his family back 500 years to Ostergotland, which is adjacent to the Baltic.  There are a couple of R-L21* Finns as well.

The Angles faced the Baltic side of the Jutland peninsula too. I think at least one L21 is near Vaasa, Finland. The Swedes held that area for a long time in the Middle Ages, so the L21 there has to be a Germanic contingent. I think the highest YDNA frequency among the Saami is N.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #154 on: April 26, 2010, 02:32:49 PM »

Here is an interesting twist. An L21 Scot recently posted on the DNA forum that he was very worried that he might be Germanic because most of his matches were from Germany!
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #155 on: April 26, 2010, 04:07:02 PM »

That is comical in light of recent events!
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #156 on: April 26, 2010, 05:44:53 PM »

 I personally see t a fairly chaotic spread of ht15 with SNPs occurring as it moved west.  i think at the time of the spread there was no cultural/linguistic significance between the ht15 clades because the variance MRCA dates suggest the SNPs occurred rapidly and in many area they would also have arrived mixed from the start.  I think its speed suggests we should be looking at it as an 'ht15 spread', perhaps of Indo-Europeans not yet split into different groups.  

That is not to say the proportions of each clade did not vary greatly or that some areas ended up with a strong predominance of one type, just that the mix was likely not a  cultural signifier. I think what happened is later spheres of interaction led to dialects evolving into blocks but the clades structure had been determined long before in the initial spread.  

« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 05:46:21 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #157 on: April 26, 2010, 06:04:53 PM »

Here is an interesting twist. An L21 Scot recently posted on the DNA forum that he was very worried that he might be Germanic because most of his matches were from Germany!

Well there clearly was an element of Angles in southern Scotland in the Dark Ages.  The Kingdom of Bernicia (part of Northumbria) included first the SE area including Edinburgh and perhaps Stirling and later also included the SW area too around Galloway etc.  Although some people prefer to claim an exclusively Celtic identity, the reality is that the Angles brought the Anglo-Germanic dialect that would evolve into 'Scots', the language of Robert Burns etc.  Identity is a very fluid thing.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #158 on: April 26, 2010, 06:11:57 PM »

I personally see t a fairly chaotic spread of ht15 with SNPs occurring as it moved west.  i think at the time of the spread there was no cultural/linguistic significance between the ht15 clades because the variance MRCA dates suggest the SNPs occurred rapidly and in many area they would also have arrived mixed from the start.  I think its speed suggests we should be looking at it as an 'ht15 spread', perhaps of Indo-Europeans not yet split into different groups.  

That is not to say the proportions of each clade did not vary greatly or that some areas ended up with a strong predominance of one type, just that the mix was likely not a  cultural signifier. I think what happened is later spheres of interaction led to dialects evolving into blocks but the clades structure had been determined long before in the initial spread.  
Alan, yours is a very reasonable description that could account for what we have today.

You use the word "chaotic".  I assume you meant there was a lot of inter-cultural stress and conflict.  Is that what you meant?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 06:12:51 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #159 on: April 26, 2010, 06:46:28 PM »

I personally see t a fairly chaotic spread of ht15 with SNPs occurring as it moved west.  i think at the time of the spread there was no cultural/linguistic significance between the ht15 clades because the variance MRCA dates suggest the SNPs occurred rapidly and in many area they would also have arrived mixed from the start.  I think its speed suggests we should be looking at it as an 'ht15 spread', perhaps of Indo-Europeans not yet split into different groups.  

That is not to say the proportions of each clade did not vary greatly or that some areas ended up with a strong predominance of one type, just that the mix was likely not a  cultural signifier. I think what happened is later spheres of interaction led to dialects evolving into blocks but the clades structure had been determined long before in the initial spread.  


I agree that this is the most likely scenario.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #160 on: April 26, 2010, 10:40:40 PM »

A study was done recently on the E1a (E1b1a?) clades amongst Bantu and Yoruba speakers in Africa. While these languages differ like Celtic and Germanic, the study found no genetic differences to exist when it comes to language.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 10:41:03 PM by NealtheRed » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #161 on: April 27, 2010, 08:10:57 PM »

A study was done recently on the E1a (E1b1a?) clades amongst Bantu and Yoruba speakers in Africa. While these languages differ like Celtic and Germanic, the study found no genetic differences to exist when it comes to language.

I believe Vince Vizachero posted a link to that study's abstract a short while back. As I recall, it said there was no difference at the very fine level but mentioned other studies that did find differences over larger language regions.

In other words, one may not find a great deal of genetic difference between speakers of different languages when those speakers live in close proximity to one another in a small region, perhaps a border region between the two languages. But the differences grow greater when one compares the language groups over larger regions.

Is that such a surprise?

Take Germany and Poland for example. Where Polish speakers transition over to German speakers one is likely to find a similar spread of y-dna haplogroups, mostly R1a transitioning to more R1b, etc. But if one compares the entire German language region to the entire region where Polish is spoken, the differences will be much more readily apparent.
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rms2
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« Reply #162 on: July 09, 2010, 09:54:17 AM »

There is a new German R-L21 this morning: Feldman (Feltmann), Ysearch 674QH. His ancestor was born in Westerkappeln in Nordrhein-Westfalen, just northwest of Osnabrück.

(Just as an aside, recall that Hubert said the Goidels probably came from the area of Nordrhein-Westfalen.)
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #163 on: July 09, 2010, 03:42:41 PM »

There is a new German R-L21 this morning: Feldman (Feltmann), Ysearch 674QH. His ancestor was born in Westerkappeln in Nordrhein-Westfalen, just northwest of Osnabrück.

(Just as an aside, recall that Hubert said the Goidels probably came from the area of Nordrhein-Westfalen.)

Interestingly, the head measurers like Carleton Coon said that the closest match for Irish Early Bronze Age skulls/skeletons was in the Rhineland immediately south of the area Hubert brings the Goidels from.  However a common origin rather than one being derived from each other is probably what Coon was getting at.  He seemed to be angling at the Irish and the SW Germans coming from some common source although he seems to suggest that Iberia itself did not have the correct beaker skeletal types to be the source.   He seems to suggest thought that the Irish differed in some degree from the British beaker folk, suggesting that the beaker folk who crossed to Britain had mixed with other NW European strains a little further east.  Late British archaeologist Humphrey Case who is an expert in the Neolithic/ Early Bronze Age wrote an assessment of the Irish Beaker period and suggested that Atlantic France was the likely source of Irish beakers and was also a vital link between Iberia and the Rhine groups (perhaps a two way flow).  Case seems to have been someone who handled a lot of the material first hand and that made him never sway from the Iberian beaker origin even when the Dutch origin model was dominant.  I have to say too that my gut feeling is that the Irish (and perhaps Atlantic British) beaker link is with NW France while most of Britain would seem more likely to have received its beaker settlers from further east closer to the Rhine where the populations may have been rather more mixed with the Corded Ware and other populations.  The current mainstream origin ideas of beakers in Iberia could be combined with the groups that met with and were influenced by the corded ware groups near the Rhine.  Certainly Richard Bradley in his book 'The prehistory of Britain and Ireland' did kind of portray the more easterly beaker groups as sort of hybrid of beaker-corded ware influences and these were the ones who seem to have settled southern and eastern Britain but not Ireland (and Atlantic Britain?).  Ireland seems to have a beaker culture which is more reflective of NW/Atlantic France where the corded ware burial traditions were not present. 

I also wonder if this had an effect on genes and languages.  Its hard to believe (although not impossible) that a group expanding from Iberia (beakers) was speaking the same language as a group with the oldest dates from Poland.  There origin points as currently accepted is just so different.  Jean has put some interesting ideas to close that gap but I personally would need a lot more evidence to be convinced.  
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 11:46:52 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #164 on: August 12, 2010, 07:38:19 PM »

A couple of days ago someone posted over on our Yahoo group that his father-in-law, surname Fritzler, kit 149869, recently got his L21+ result. Fritzler traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia, near the modern village of Kamenskiy (near the city of Saratov), among the "Volga German" settlers.

I have tried to get this first Fritzler to join the R-L21 Plus Project, but thus far he has not done so. However, I found another Fritzler in Ysearch, S3V62, who matches him exactly at 37 markers and who also traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia.

This second Fritzler (Ysearch S3V62) has joined the project and is currently awaiting L21 test results.

It would be very interesting to test some more males who trace their ancestry to the village of Grimm, Russia.
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OConnor
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« Reply #165 on: August 12, 2010, 08:31:01 PM »

I await the Grimm Results ;)

Thanks for keeping us posted Rich
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #166 on: August 13, 2010, 10:27:44 AM »

A couple of days ago someone posted over on our Yahoo group that his father-in-law, surname Fritzler, kit 149869, recently got his L21+ result. Fritzler traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia, near the modern village of Kamenskiy (near the city of Saratov), among the "Volga German" settlers.

I have tried to get this first Fritzler to join the R-L21 Plus Project, but thus far he has not done so. However, I found another Fritzler in Ysearch, S3V62, who matches him exactly at 37 markers and who also traces his ancestry to Grimm, Russia.

This second Fritzler (Ysearch S3V62) has joined the project and is currently awaiting L21 test results.

It would be very interesting to test some more males who trace their ancestry to the village of Grimm, Russia.
Is Fritzler, kit 149869, in any of the FTDNA projects?  I couldn't find him in the Russian, Russian-Ukraine or Russian-Slavic projects.
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rms2
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« Reply #167 on: August 13, 2010, 10:59:18 AM »


Is Fritzler, kit 149869, in any of the FTDNA projects?  I couldn't find him in the Russian, Russian-Ukraine or Russian-Slavic projects.

I haven't been able to find him either. I was hoping he would join us, but he hasn't done so yet.
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OConnor
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« Reply #168 on: August 13, 2010, 08:27:55 PM »

There is one member in the  "Fritzler" Group Project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Fritzler
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #169 on: August 13, 2010, 08:32:19 PM »

Another new German R-L21 joined the project today: Eichhorn, kit N15312. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. I'm still waiting to find out exactly where his ancestor came from. He doesn't have a Ysearch entry yet.
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rms2
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« Reply #170 on: August 14, 2010, 07:44:24 AM »

Another new German R-L21 joined the project today: Eichhorn, kit N15312. He tested L21+ with 23andMe. I'm still waiting to find out exactly where his ancestor came from. He doesn't have a Ysearch entry yet.

Still no Ysearch entry, but apparently Eichhorn's ancestor came from Thüringen in Central Germany. Hopefully he will create a Ysearch entry shortly.
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A.D.
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« Reply #171 on: August 15, 2010, 09:38:05 PM »

cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory
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rms2
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« Reply #172 on: August 15, 2010, 09:46:24 PM »

cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory

No! There's too much of it in Germany for that to be the case.

We've been round and round with the whole "randy Irish monks" bit. It's kind of a sore subject.

Besides, as a newcomer to this forum, you missed a lot of discussions. Had you been here, you would have known already that L21 haplotypes in France and Germany are the oldest L21 haplotypes, older than those in the British Isles.

That means that L21 probably originated on the Continent and spread from there to the British Isles.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #173 on: August 16, 2010, 08:13:44 PM »

cold it be possable that L-21 could have been introduced with monks and their scholars from Britain and Ireland as the 'dark ages' even from the old Celtic church .it differed from the roman church I'm not sure if celibacy was compulsory

No! There's too much of it in Germany for that to be the case.

We've been round and round with the whole "randy Irish monks" bit. It's kind of a sore subject.

Besides, as a newcomer to this forum, you missed a lot of discussions. Had you been here, you would have known already that L21 haplotypes in France and Germany are the oldest L21 haplotypes, older than those in the British Isles.

That means that L21 probably originated on the Continent and spread from there to the British Isles.
Deja-vu all over again.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 08:14:07 PM by GoldenHind » Logged
A.D.
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« Reply #174 on: August 16, 2010, 09:33:45 PM »

sorry guys  as you say i'm new my prevous studies were mainly from 'phisical anthropology' sites and forums which led me to give up. you should read some of their ideas for some light relief. maybe not  on 2nd thoughts alot of it is just insulting
i find this site educated and balanced as a whole and i get abit over enthuseasatic
i'm only here to learn
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