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rms2
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« Reply #125 on: January 27, 2010, 04:28:05 PM »

A new German R-L21 just showed up in Ysearch: Wiegand (ancestral surname Weygand), Ysearch 8EFGC.

He doesn't match Wigand from Bavaria who is already a member of the R-L21 Plus Project, so this is a different line.

His ancestor came from Eifa in Hessen in west central Germany.

I have invited him to join the project. Hopefully he will.

Wiegand has joined the project, and yet another new German R-L21 popped up today in the Germany Project, Wendling, Ysearch ENFH4. His ancestor came from Alsace in what is now France.

Needless to say, I have also invited Wendling to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

We're starting to pick up some new members in Eastern France. :-)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 04:28:44 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #126 on: January 28, 2010, 08:31:54 PM »

Wendling joined, but I've got him in the France category, because his ancestor came from Kindwiller in Alsace in what is now France.

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« Reply #127 on: April 21, 2010, 08:42:55 PM »

I just noticed a new R-L21 in the Germany Project: Wentzel, kit 81967.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults

I can't find him in Ysearch, but I have emailed my friend Ed Martin of the Germany Project to try to recruit Wentzel for the R-L21 Plus Project.
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« Reply #128 on: April 21, 2010, 10:07:27 PM »

Did you notice the M222 collection? Are they all N/W Irish?

There is a Murphy listed in the M222+ group with a sequence very similar to mine. He looks like he is from the Leinster group in the Murphy Project.

Murphy 
R1b1b2a1b5
12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

Me R-L159.2+
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2010, 08:43:21 PM »

Did you notice the M222 collection? Are they all N/W Irish?

There is a Murphy listed in the M222+ group with a sequence very similar to mine. He looks like he is from the Leinster group in the Murphy Project.

Murphy  
R1b1b2a1b5
12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

Me R-L159.2+
12 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 16

That's not an M222+ group. That is an error committed by whoever created those categories. Most of those guys are members of the R-L21 Plus project. That category should read "R-L21" NOT "M222+".

There are folks in the Germany Project who are in it on the basis of their maternal line. That is probably why you see a Murphy and a Babson there, for example.

Just take a look at the surnames and you can pick out which ones are in the Germany Project because of their paternal line and which ones are probably there based on their maternal line.

Besides, most M222+ guys have a fairly distinctive haplotype that is not too difficult to spot.

None of our L21+ Germans is "N/W Irish".
« Last Edit: April 22, 2010, 08:49:25 PM by rms2 » Logged

NealtheRed
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« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2010, 11:06:55 PM »

I just noticed a new R-L21 in the Germany Project: Wentzel, kit 81967.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults

I can't find him in Ysearch, but I have emailed my friend Ed Martin of the Germany Project to try to recruit Wentzel for the R-L21 Plus Project.

Nice!
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« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2010, 09:49:43 AM »

I just noticed a new R-L21 in the Germany Project: Wentzel, kit 81967.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/germany/default.aspx?section=yresults

I can't find him in Ysearch, but I have emailed my friend Ed Martin of the Germany Project to try to recruit Wentzel for the R-L21 Plus Project.
Great catch, Rich!   Either you've already invented it, or someone needs to program it; but we should get you a some kind app that trolls through these projects looking for R1b1b2a1b5.

Wenztel is interesting.   Get this -  a possible pre-Scots Modal type* person???

He has these off-modals (of WAMH) that line up with the Scots Modal people:
391=10
YCAII=19,24
531=12
413a=22

He's off the Scots Modal, but still off WAMH on the following:
389ii-i=18, which is one higher (more off-modal WAMH) than the Scots =17/16
GataH4=10 which is one lower than WAMH, rather than higher =12 which is Scots

Particularly because of the 389ii-i being particularly high, higher than the Scots, perhaps this represents a very early branch off the Scots Modal people... or perhaps I'm drinking too much.

I was thinking about this and it is amusing.  I see this type haplotype and location and I immediately think things like "perhaps this is where the Scots modal people come from".   On the other hand, there are other people out there seeing something like this and it must pop into their minds "perhaps this is an Irish monk or Wild Geese type or Scots/Irish slave".   We don't really know but it is amusing about folks' predisposition.

* Note: I don't claim that "Scots Modal" people are really truly based on Gaelic Irish/Scots tribes.  Perhaps they were ancient Picts of some sort.. or Caledonians, whatever that is.
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y24
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« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2010, 03:20:25 PM »

Wentzel does indeed look 'Scots R1b'. He's only a GD of 4/67 markers from Tagert (mabkf). The name Tagert is an Anglicisation of the Gaelic Mac an t-Sagairt, meaning "son of the priest".
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rms2
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« Reply #133 on: April 23, 2010, 08:35:17 PM »

Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.

What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.

It fries me, honestly.

If there is one thing that will make me walk away from this hobby in absolute disgust, that is it.

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps at least some of the Scottish Celts originally came from Germany? Recall what Tacitus wrote in his Agricola (11)?

Quote from: Tacitus
The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 08:43:16 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #134 on: April 23, 2010, 09:20:50 PM »

Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.
What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.
Some of this is just the dominance of Irish and Scottish haplotypes in the commercial data bases.  Some of this because of that predominance, the early cluster descriptions were assigned Isles names.

I don't like the Scots naming in this case, not only because it may be wider than Scotland, but also because we don't even know if these guys are true ancient Scotti.  They may be Picts or Caledonians or just a northern Brit or a mix of all these these things.

That's why I use labels like
1012-A   1012-A-Sc       1012-A-Sc-1   1012-A-22     and 1012-B
for these clusters (short for 391=10  531=12  GataH4=12, etc.)  We don't know their cultural associations other than modern day, but this is just more jargon that people don't like anyway.  So, I don't have a good answer.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2010, 09:32:42 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #135 on: April 24, 2010, 05:13:32 AM »

Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.

What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.

It fries me, honestly.

If there is one thing that will make me walk away from this hobby in absolute disgust, that is it.

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps at least some of the Scottish Celts originally came from Germany? Recall what Tacitus wrote in his Agricola (11)?

Quote from: Tacitus
The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin.

Of course the Romans were stereotyping.  Exactly the same idea of the Scots and the Irish being all red heads remains today.  Yes they do have noticeably more red hair than other peoples around Europe but it is only around the 10% mark in those countries.  It only stands out because the norm is far lower than that-perhaps just a few percent.  Even the more red headed continental countries would only have half of that.  Also, if the Germans were red headed in the past they certainly are not anywhere near as much as the British and Irish today from my own travels and I think I recall reading its only a few % today.  I have a suspicion that the Roman stereotype came from the tribes along the Celtic-Germanic boundary.  The only place in the Germanic world I have noticed a lot of redheads (not just blondes with a touch of red) is Holland (think Van Gough!)
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« Reply #136 on: April 24, 2010, 05:40:36 AM »

Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.
What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.
Some of this is just the dominance of Irish and Scottish haplotypes in the commercial data bases.  Some of this because of that predominance, the early cluster descriptions were assigned Isles names.

I don't like the Scots naming in this case, not only because it may be wider than Scotland, but also because we don't even know if these guys are true ancient Scotti.  They may be Picts or Caledonians or just a northern Brit or a mix of all these these things.

That's why I use labels like
1012-A   1012-A-Sc       1012-A-Sc-1   1012-A-22     and 1012-B
for these clusters (short for 391=10  531=12  GataH4=12, etc.)  We don't know their cultural associations other than modern day, but this is just more jargon that people don't like anyway.  So, I don't have a good answer.

I agree that isles names on clusters is a bad idea at present in most cases except perhaps the very largest locaised clusters.  The level of overrepresentation of the isles compared to any single European country must be extraordinary.  Probably one continental hit is as good as 10 in the isles.  Many isles clusters may not be especially isles at all.  

As for the Scot-like German.  Surely some of the STR defined clusters on the isles must have formed very slowly mutation by mutation and some of these may have happened before the isles was reached and before the cluster expanded.  There must have been people with STRs matching every step from L21 modal to a distinctive cluster like NW Irish or Scots.  It wasnt like they were modal L21 one day and Scot or NW Irish (or whatever) the next.  Many clusters must have left a trail of people who are at various stages between the L21 modal and the cluster modals - a sort of continuum and constant fission of lineages/branching.   The final stages would be like the pre-M222 theory where you get people who are very like the NW Irish cluster but lack the SNP who perhaps branched off from the common ancestor of them and the line who got the M222 SNP a few generations later.  I find the theory a useful one and if we had a much better continental 67 marker database then I wonder if we perhaps we could see a trail that would add geography to the various stages of process of mutation and lineage fission that led from L21 modal to a localized cluster.  
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 05:42:08 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #137 on: April 24, 2010, 08:50:59 AM »

Yeah, I noticed his 391=10 and YCAII=19,24 right away.

What bugs the hell out of me (seriously), however, is the use to which such information is put. One German R-L21 who might have a Scots-looking haplotype out of many who plainly do not and suddenly Scotland is the source of all continental L21.

It fries me, honestly.

If there is one thing that will make me walk away from this hobby in absolute disgust, that is it.

Has anyone ever thought that perhaps at least some of the Scottish Celts originally came from Germany? Recall what Tacitus wrote in his Agricola (11)?

Quote from: Tacitus
The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin.

Of course the Romans were stereotyping.  Exactly the same idea of the Scots and the Irish being all red heads remains today.  Yes they do have noticeably more red hair than other peoples around Europe but it is only around the 10% mark in those countries.  It only stands out because the norm is far lower than that-perhaps just a few percent.  Even the more red headed continental countries would only have half of that.  Also, if the Germans were red headed in the past they certainly are not anywhere near as much as the British and Irish today from my own travels and I think I recall reading its only a few % today.  I have a suspicion that the Roman stereotype came from the tribes along the Celtic-Germanic boundary.  The only place in the Germanic world I have noticed a lot of redheads (not just blondes with a touch of red) is Holland (think Van Gough!)

I understand that, but Tacitus would have been speaking of that part of Germania best known by the Romans - the more Celtic area along the Rhenish boundary with Gaul. Naturally subsequent centuries have seen the dilution of the original phenotypes in that region and in Caledonia, as well.

Tacitus' observations are worth noting at least.

The original Caledonians came from somewhere. They didn't just spring, full-grown and rufous, from the heather.
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« Reply #138 on: April 24, 2010, 05:24:05 PM »

The German, Wentzel, is a GD 63/67 match with someone with a Scottish name in the same L21+ 'Scots R1b' subclade.  Seems like they share a fairly recent link within genealogical time. Very interesting for the people concerned and they must surely be connected within a few hundred years rather than thousands.
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« Reply #139 on: April 24, 2010, 05:35:43 PM »

The German, Wentzel, is a GD 63/67 match with someone with a Scottish name in the same L21+ 'Scots R1b' subclade.  Seems like they share a fairly recent link within genealogical time. Very interesting for the people concerned and they must surely be connected within a few hundred years rather than thousands.

Perhaps, but I know of men almost that closely matched at 67 markers who belong to different subclades.

Just the same, maybe Wentzel has Scottish ancestry. Since he has not joined the R-L21 Plus Project, I don't know anything about him. Wentzel could be an adopted surname or his mother's maiden surname.

His particular case says nothing about German R-L21 or continental R-L21 in general.
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« Reply #140 on: April 24, 2010, 05:46:28 PM »

The German, Wentzel, is a GD 63/67 match with someone with a Scottish name in the same L21+ 'Scots R1b' subclade.  Seems like they share a fairly recent link within genealogical time. Very interesting for the people concerned and they must surely be connected within a few hundred years rather than thousands.
I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. Who is (are) the 63/67 matches you are talking about?

I try to look at only deep clade tested folks since that eliminates a lot of the noise.  When I do that I get Wentzel's closest GD's at 67 are:
Henry Alger, b.1829, England
James Tagert, b.c.1770, North Carolina, USA; d.1827, Spring Hill, AL
Joseph Patterson, b.1779; d. 1863 - Pennsylvania, USA

The closest of the above to Wentzel is 62/67.  I don't see an MDKA with Scotland listed although they all fit into a cluster that is referenced as the "Scots modal".  I don't trust surnames, especially given we are talking about people in the US (except Alger and Wentzel.)

Perhaps most more important; absolute GD evaluations are not the best sole mechanism for determining relationships.  Signature markers are very important too along with geographic and genealogic information.

Does the 63/67 match have the following off-modals in common with Wentzel - 565=11, 437=14 and GataH4=10?   These are all slow to medium moving so I'd expect a match in the last couple of hundred years to match on two or at least one of the three.  If there is a strong match on a couple of these I'd put added credence on a recent connection.

There certainly could be a recent connection, but there could be an old relationship as well.

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« Reply #141 on: April 24, 2010, 07:57:16 PM »

The German, Wentzel, is a GD 63/67 match with someone with a Scottish name in the same L21+ 'Scots R1b' subclade.  Seems like they share a fairly recent link within genealogical time. Very interesting for the people concerned and they must surely be connected within a few hundred years rather than thousands.

Perhaps, but I know of men almost that closely matched at 67 markers who belong to different subclades.




Perhaps I am wrong, but I would expect to see matches of 60+ out of 67 markers for persons in different R1b subclades only in cases where both individuals are very, very close to the WAMH.

If that is not the case, I would be interested to know about it.
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« Reply #142 on: April 24, 2010, 08:29:55 PM »

Perhaps I am wrong, but I would expect to see matches of 60+ out of 67 markers for persons in different R1b subclades only in cases where both individuals are very, very close to the WAMH.

If that is not the case, I would be interested to know about it.
I started a topic on another forum about this very topic.  I'll have to go do some searches but, if my memory serves me,  we've had 24/25 even 25/25 from different SNP marked subclades, we've had 35/37 from different subclades and even a 62/67 from different R1b1b2 subclades.  These are other people's posts in response to my question so I don't have the Ysearch ID's.

I have seen a case of O'Shea's who are 63/67 and one is deep claded tested to L21 and the other to U106.   However, we think that is an error and the lab is retesting.

This is all in context to TMRCA's for "genealogical timeframes".  We should probably define what that is.  I'm thinking the last 400 years ago but perhaps some think the last 1000 years.  In any case, I don't trust TMRCA's to be that accurate.  I personally have a 61/67 that FTDNA says is a 90% chance of being related in the last 600 years.  However, since our surnames are different and the closest our paternal lineages would have come in the last 800 years is at least 1000 miles I have my doubts.  Meanwhile, I've got people with the surname from the same county in Ireland that are 58-59/67.  Who is more closely related?    How much do I trust the TMRCA estimate?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2010, 08:31:38 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #143 on: April 24, 2010, 08:48:48 PM »

I personally know of a match that is 60/67 and the two men are in different subclades. One of them is P312* and the other is L21+, and I have heard of closer matches than that where the two men are in different subclades. I can't say much about their proximity to WAMH.

Wentzel's case may be something else. Frankly, I'm sorry I even mentioned him now, because every such incident is seized upon to make L21 out to be THE ultimate British SNP.

Such blather makes it hard to recruit continentals who are not over fond of being thought British.
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« Reply #144 on: April 24, 2010, 11:14:12 PM »

I personally know of a match that is 60/67 and the two men are in different subclades. One of them is P312* and the other is L21+, and I have heard of closer matches than that where the two men are in different subclades. I can't say much about their proximity to WAMH.

Wentzel's case may be something else. Frankly, I'm sorry I even mentioned him now, because every such incident is seized upon to make L21 out to be THE ultimate British SNP.

Such blather makes it hard to recruit continentals who are not over fond of being thought British.

I am starting to think that STR similarities are telling us nothing about someone's deep ancestry. Like you guys say, P312* and L21 multiplied so rapidly, who is to say that the haplotypes will HAVE to look so different in one area or another.

If this guy is German, he is GERMAN. I think some folks are making this more complicated than what it is. I honestly think these clusters such as the "Scot" one established itself long before the emergence of different European cultures.
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Ysearch: 4PSCK



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« Reply #145 on: April 25, 2010, 08:44:54 PM »

and some came back as vikings
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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #146 on: April 25, 2010, 10:14:28 PM »

and some came back as vikings

If I see R1a then I can believe that one for sure.
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« Reply #147 on: April 26, 2010, 08:46:20 AM »

I suspect  R1b1b2a1b5 was in Scandinavia well before the Vikings.
If so.. some Vikings/Norse/Normans could very well be as such.

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M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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« Reply #148 on: April 26, 2010, 08:59:19 AM »

I suspect  R1b1b2a1b5 was in Scandinavia well before the Vikings.
If so.. some Vikings/Norse/Normans could very well be as such.



That's true too.
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Y-DNA: R-Z255 (L159.2+) - Downing (Irish Sea)


MTDNA: HV4a1 - Centrella (Avellino, Italy)


Ysearch: 4PSCK



Mike Walsh
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« Reply #149 on: April 26, 2010, 09:07:07 AM »

I am starting to think that STR similarities are telling us nothing about someone's deep ancestry. Like you guys say, P312* and L21 multiplied so rapidly, who is to say that the haplotypes will HAVE to look so different in one area or another.
STR patterns can tell a lot.  Haplotypes don't look alike, particularly the more distant your common ancestor is with the haplotype your comparing against.  Conversely, the reverse is true.  Within a sub-clade, like haplotypes increase the probabilities of a more recent common ancestor.

The stronger the signature, the better. By that I mean the larger the pattern of common unusual marker alleles (values), the better the odds of a more recent relationship.   SNP's only "flag" an actual clade.  The clade is there or isn't there regardless of our ability to describe it with our measurements. STR's can indicate a clade and SNP's can more reliably "flag" the clade.

Quote from: NealtheRed
If this guy is German, he is GERMAN. I think some folks are making this more complicated than what it is. I honestly think these clusters such as the "Scot" one established itself long before the emergence of different European cultures.
It is quite possible that many of the clusters emerged before the current cultural identities, in fact, it is no doubt true given the way cultures change.

I think the point of deep ancestry is what location and group of people a lineage was in at a given point in time.  This may seem complicated, but it just the way it is.  Peoples merge, split, migrate and cultures change.  Today's German, may have had a sequence of Celtic speakers in its lineage somewhere. Today's Scot may have had a series of Celtic speakers in its lineage and possibly Germanic speaker before that and possibly Celtic again before that.   I think this kind of kind change may be more frequent than many people realize, and may be hard to accept at first.

For example, the language my paternal lineage spoke probably changed to completely at least four or five times in the last 1500-2000 years.  What group were we in and when?  
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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