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eochaidh
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« Reply #200 on: May 12, 2010, 09:37:58 PM »

I'm not saying your question is empty, Miles, but I don't think it is that surprising that L21 came to become the most successful haplogroup on an ISLAND.

And think of this: not even all of the L21 in Ireland is of Celtic origin either...some came later too.
The pre-L21 haplogroups were also on an ISLAND! Why didn't they dominate? They may have out numbered the newly arrived L21 as well.

You have 90 black rabbits in a hutch.... you add 10 white rabbits..... you come back a year later and there are 10 times more white rabbits then black rabbits. No reason to question... it just happpened. It's a HUTCH!
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #201 on: May 12, 2010, 09:48:00 PM »

Pre-R haplogroups did dominate Ireland until L21 arrived. A lot was being developed in Central Europe that spawned a movement of people to Ireland - better technology being one of them.

There also seems to be a physiological aspect to all of this. The early population of Ireland was clearly different PHYSICALLY than those whose remains are dated later. I hate to say this, but what usually happens in natural selection?

And no, I am not saying that R is this ubermensch type over the other haplogroups in Ireland, but it could well be that the physical type brought in by later later migrants were larger and more able than the previous inhabitants.

Remember, Miles. It is an island. The previous folks had nowhere to go.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #202 on: May 12, 2010, 10:06:57 PM »

Yet another problem to throw into the mix is that the Beaker Folk certainly must have had many Haplogroups represented among them, It couldn't be that they were all L21. So there must have been varieties of R and other Haplogroups as well, like I, E and others.

The only thing I can think of, and I'm not sure how it could be proved, is that the Irish population had dwindled down to almost nothing before the arrival of the Beaker Folk. Then you still have to have the Beaker Folk be a majority L21. I can see no reason to think that the Beaker Folk would have any more L21 than is currently represented on the Continent.

I may be thick as a post, but this is really a mystery to me.

Miles (BBQ   Bell Beaker Q-Celtic)
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #203 on: May 12, 2010, 10:14:07 PM »

Why did the Irish population have to be dwindled down? For all we know there could have been a major struggle between the pre-R inhabitants and the new, Celtic invaders. It could have been genocide; who knows? Ancient populations were not as hospitable as the Canadians.

Bell Beaker definitely included other haplogroups, but the main force was probably P312* and its sons. Even Mike Hammer said that R1b was probably a latecomer to Scandinavia too.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #204 on: May 13, 2010, 05:54:33 AM »

Problem with the beaker theory is unlike southern and eastern Britain, the Atlantic part of the isles and especially Ireland lacks the evidence for migration such as the classic beaker burial traditions and package. In Ireland it blends seelessly into the grooved ware traditions that immediately preceed beaker.  The only really clearcut evidence of newcomers is the Ross island copper mines and related metalwork products. In south and east Britain it's much easier to see a substatial movement of people. In Ireland it is much easier to see it as down to really small groups of metalworkers and traders.  Btw dienekes blog is discussing a paper that links R1b1b2 with groups swept along with the early farmers. The idea that the hunters were neolithicised in eastern Europe before expanding west has long been a popular idea of the linearbandkeramik  ie the main thrust west was by eastern European hunters who learned farming rather than sw Asian settlers.
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Jean M
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« Reply #205 on: May 13, 2010, 07:02:00 AM »

I think L21 exploded before the Celto-Germanic split.
Before the changes that created Proto-Germanic, yes. There wasn't a Proto-Celto-Germanic that split into two. Proto-Celtic is much earlier (c. 3000 BC) than Proto-Germanic (c. 500 BC).

We tend to think of an explosion of separate migrations in different directions out of the PIE homeland all at the same time, which soon became the familiar language-families of today. It didn't really happen that way. As far as anyone can work out, the departures were staggered, and so were the developments that created today's language families.

Tracing the route taken by the PIE-speakers who later developed Proto-Germanic is no easy matter. There could have been more than one wave reaching the north European plain and milling around there amidst people who had already shifted from PIE to Proto-Celtic and Proto-Balto-Slavic, before bunching up into Southern Scandinavia in the Bronze Age, where the sound-shifts took place that created Proto-Germanic. Then the migration went into reverse and Proto-Germanic speakers poured out of Jutand (and began to split into separate Germanic languages about the time of Caesar).   

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Jean M
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« Reply #206 on: May 13, 2010, 07:14:57 AM »

Problem with the beaker theory is unlike southern and eastern Britain, the Atlantic part of the isles and especially Ireland lacks the evidence for migration such as the classic beaker burial traditions and package. In Ireland it blends seamlessly into the grooved ware traditions that immediately precede beaker.  

Alan - exactly the same arguments were used to pooh-pooh "Beaker Folk" in Britain for decades. The full package does not appear at every site. Beaker is often blended with a continuation of Neolithic traditions. Only the fact that the Amesbury Archer was clearly foreign started to change minds. This is despite the fact that the skeletal evidence pointed to newcomers and there were dramatic cultural differences with Bell Beaker, related to same on the Continent.  
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 07:17:47 AM by Jean M » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #207 on: May 13, 2010, 07:37:21 AM »


Rich,

I could put on a three act play about L21 originating on the Continent for you, and you would still accuse me of saying L21 originated in Ireland. There is nothing I can do about that.

That L21 has so completely overtaken Ireland is an amazing thing. One can ask how can't they?

Hey, my line is L21, I'm not complaining... but wow, how the hell did we do it?!

Just for the record, I believe that the Bell Beaker Folk brought L21 to Ireland, and most probably the Q Celtic language that became Irish Gaelic. Do I need to sign anything?

Miles


Now you are dissembling. Your initial post was full of sarcasm, and the last time you posted here (it's been awhile) you accused me, among others, of having a "template" into which I was trying to force all L21+ results.

Back then you strenuously advocated an Irish origin for L21, and you haven't been back until just now to say you had changed your mind.

So pardon my doubting your motives.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #208 on: May 13, 2010, 09:10:01 AM »

No, with all due respect, I stated back then several times that I thought L21 originated on the Continent. I believe the first time I did so was with Alan. I also stated that I was one who didn't like what I felt was "making things fit" in a template, and I stilll don't.

There are many who believe that L21 originated in the Isles, and although people may disagreee with them, they have every right to hold on to their beliefs. Why anyone would feel the need to wipe them out is beyond me. How does it hurt anyone if there's one or one hundred people who believe L21 originated in the Isles. I have always found it odd that people "need" others to believe as they do.

Oh, Neal is another guy to whom I stated several times my belief that L21 originated on the Continent. I would often start a post that way and still be accussed of holding on to the L21-Isles belief. Which, again, anyone has the right to hold. Goldenhind as well. I'd write a post and state my belief for Continental L21, and would be thrown a "Randy Irish Monk", which is a term that would have hurt my father deeply. Please understand, that my father deeply held on to the Irish myths as truth, and loved the idea that Irish Monks and their followers had brought Christianity and Scholarship throughout Europe. When people mock those who believe that the Irish came from Spain, or that followers of these Monks could have had a genetic effect, I think of my Dad. My Dad was a good man. My Dad was a kind man. My Dad was an Irishman. My Dad had a right to hold on to beliefs he had held since childhood.

All that being said, I still am amazed at L21's dominance of Ireland. I do supposed that it could have been helped along by Beaker Folk wiping out most of the remaining Neolithic men through force, but that idea hurts a bit. Certainly, I have some of the genes of those Neolithic men running through me as well. Besides, I have such a great respect for structures like Newgrange.

Look, I have stated several times that I am an uneducated person who enjoys all this stuff, but that I also don't always get all this stuff. I also like to hear both sides, and will go as far as to prompt that in order to hear it.

Thanks,  Miles
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #209 on: May 13, 2010, 12:00:00 PM »

Jean
i personally always felt that in southern and eastern Britain the beaker phase was about as clearcut a sudden change as you could hope for when looking for a settlement horizon. Certainly the best horizon in the 4000 years after the Neolithic arrived. However there is literally not one classic beaker burial in Ireland and all burials of that period are in fact cremations none with classic combinations of beaker package artefacts.  In sharp contrast to the south and the east of Britain, Irelands beaker phase is far more easily interpreted as the most minor of intrusions. I am not as clear on this but I understand that Atlantic Britain is also fairly lacking compared to the south and east.  That is a problem when the degrees of both r1b1b2 as a whole and L21 specifically is the exact opposite of the geography of classic beaker culture.  I accept that there may be explanations for this in later prehistory and early history or perhaps some as yet undefined non-classic Atlantic beaker variant but it is clear there is no simple intuitive correlation between beakers and r1b1b2 or L21
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #210 on: May 13, 2010, 12:36:41 PM »

Eochaid

The stuff about the irish monks and there amazing voyages from Iceland to Italy and there role in saving and reintroducing Latin civilisation and Christianity is largely fact proven by historical sources.  

However the legends of miles espain etc are in an entirely different category and scholars have concluded that they are literary constructions of the early Christian period that later sank into folk legend when the native Irish upper and learned classes were wiped out. The legends latin origins among the monasteries rather than secular gaelic folk origins are not difficult to uncover. The first clue is in the name of miles espain. Both words  are Latin not Gaelic in origin.  It's a learned Latin Composition of the monks not native Gaelic tradition.  Similarly Parthalon is an Irish version of barthlemew not a native name.  I could go on.  It may seem like a folk story now but the origins of a unified history for the Irish that glossed over the disunited tribal reality is in monasteries of early medieval Ireland. That is not my opinion but that of the academics who have studied them.  Other than perhaps some metal trading I am unaware of any archaeological cultures known in both Ireland and Iberia be it Mesolithic, early neolithic, iron age or whatever.  That is why I felt that the DNA was unlikely to link the two countries.  Clades, archaeology and geography would suggest irelands closest links have generally been with Britain and northen France. To date L21 supports this.  
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 12:45:23 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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« Reply #211 on: May 13, 2010, 12:41:32 PM »

. . .

There are many who believe that L21 originated in the Isles, and although people may disagreee with them, they have every right to hold on to their beliefs. Why anyone would feel the need to wipe them out is beyond me. How does it hurt anyone if there's one or one hundred people who believe L21 originated in the Isles. I have always found it odd that people "need" others to believe as they do.


Who said anything about wiping anyone out?

If someone wants to believe L21 originated in the British Isles, that's fine. Maybe it did. It's not an unreasonable position to hold.

What troubled me most about that position is that it was adopted by some as soon as the first L21+ results were published, and some of them argued for it vigorously, despite the fact that at that point we didn't really know anything about L21.

A certain poster on Rootsweb really wanted it to be true so that he could make L21 into the "aboriginal" subclade, which freed his own to be heroic "invaders" , "true Celts", and, still better, "Danish Vikings".

I feel like I have been fighting an uphill battle against that sort of thing since day one.
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rms2
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« Reply #212 on: May 13, 2010, 12:43:34 PM »

By the way, the whole "randy Irish monk" thing came from a number of posters on Rootsweb who actually suggested L21 was spread on the Continent by Irish monks.

We didn't make that up. I know I never would have.
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Jean M
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« Reply #213 on: May 13, 2010, 02:27:33 PM »

Jean
 ... However there is literally not one classic beaker burial in Ireland

Neil Carlin, who is studying Beaker material culture and social change in Ireland: a study of Beaker associated settlement, ritual and funerary practices agrees with you in general:

Quote
In the case of Ireland, the manifestation of this complex differs from elsewhere because settlements are comparatively common while stereotypical Beaker burials are rare.

He and his supervisor contributed to the conference Is there a British Chalcolithic? People, Place and Polity in the later Third Millenium BC Friday 18th - Sunday 20th April 2008, so I imagine that there will be a contribution from them in the volume of papers from the conference due out this year in:  

The British Chalcolithic: people, place and polity in the later third millennium BC, Prehistoric Society Research Paper 4, edited by Michael J. Allen, Julie Gardiner, Alison Sheridan & David McOmish. Something to watch for.  
« Last Edit: May 13, 2010, 02:28:33 PM by Jean M » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #214 on: May 13, 2010, 03:05:17 PM »

I am fairly certain there is not one inhumation burial of beaker period in Ireland let alone classic elements like foetal position, whole pots, archers kit etc. Beakers and beakr package artefacts are found but not in the coherent way.  The only way that can be explained away is if settlers came from a non typical beaker area, perhaps nw France but that is just a hunch.  Seems to me that both grooved ware and beaker tends to appear in henges, timber circles etc suggesting those monment types existed before and after the early beaker horizon as indeed it does in Britain.  The diffrence is in southern and eastern Britain there is a compelling case that a significant new element arrived and infilled rather than conquered. In Ireland the evidence suggests a much more slight intrusion centred on metalworking and small enough to otherwise go native quicky.  The odd thing is many beaker style traditions in burial suddenly appear at the point beaker disappears and food vessels (only otherwise known in Britain) appear.   
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eochaidh
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« Reply #215 on: May 13, 2010, 03:52:15 PM »

Eochaid

The stuff about the irish monks and there amazing voyages from Iceland to Italy and there role in saving and reintroducing Latin civilisation and Christianity is largely fact proven by historical sources.  

However the legends of miles espain etc are in an entirely different category and scholars have concluded that they are literary constructions of the early Christian period that later sank into folk legend when the native Irish upper and learned classes were wiped out. The legends latin origins among the monasteries rather than secular gaelic folk origins are not difficult to uncover. The first clue is in the name of miles espain. Both words  are Latin not Gaelic in origin.  It's a learned Latin Composition of the monks not native Gaelic tradition.  Similarly Parthalon is an Irish version of barthlemew not a native name.  I could go on.  It may seem like a folk story now but the origins of a unified history for the Irish that glossed over the disunited tribal reality is in monasteries of early medieval Ireland. That is not my opinion but that of the academics who have studied them.  Other than perhaps some metal trading I am unaware of any archaeological cultures known in both Ireland and Iberia be it Mesolithic, early neolithic, iron age or whatever.  That is why I felt that the DNA was unlikely to link the two countries.  Clades, archaeology and geography would suggest irelands closest links have generally been with Britain and northen France. To date L21 supports this.  

True enough, Alan, but I still hear and see my Dad telling the stories in my mind. If he were alive today I wouldn't share any of this with him.

He died a year before Thomas Cahill's book, "How the Irish saved Civilization", but he would have loved it. It may be scoffed at today, but my Dad would have said, "Ya see"!So maybe some stories should be left to linger polietly. No need to say thye're true, but maybe have a little respect for those who hold them dear.

Miles


 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #216 on: May 13, 2010, 05:13:22 PM »

Eochaid
well the old stories, particularly the earliest written versions are highly respected still and are after all the largest body of non classical European litrature in early medieval Europe.  However, they are respected as literature rather than history.  Frankly I think everyone myself included is rather disappoints when they start of with the very optimistic take on the historical value of early Irish myths expressed by scholars in the first half of the 20th century when terms like 'window on the iron age' were used to describe it and then see how in the 2nd half of the 20th century scholars started to see how much of it derived from Latin, Greek and biblical sources.  That is not to say there is not a good amount of native history, pre-Christian beliefs and mythology in there too. The problem is it was all mixed up in an imaginative way by the monks who wrote it down and brief flashes of genuine history are mixed up with other stuff. Regardless the myths are beatiful and the monks who blended native and other sources to create them left Ireland with an incredible treasure.  Add to that the Irish laws dating to 700AD etc, the annals etc and Ireland leaves the rest of norhern Europe miles behind in terms of the early written record.   
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« Reply #217 on: May 13, 2010, 11:41:31 PM »

... If someone wants to believe L21 originated in the British Isles, that's fine. Maybe it did. It's not an unreasonable position to hold....
Of course everyone can believe in what they want.  However, I think we want to use logic along with civility in public discourse.  I am not sure if is unreasonable is the right descriptor, but I do think it is illogical to think that L21 originated in the British Isles.  If someone has evidence it did originate there, let them describe it; but if the weight of the evidence goes against it, so be it.
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« Reply #218 on: May 14, 2010, 07:03:12 AM »

... If someone wants to believe L21 originated in the British Isles, that's fine. Maybe it did. It's not an unreasonable position to hold....
Of course everyone can believe in what they want.  However, I think we want to use logic along with civility in public discourse.  I am not sure if is unreasonable is the right descriptor, but I do think it is illogical to think that L21 originated in the British Isles.  If someone has evidence it did originate there, let them describe it; but if the weight of the evidence goes against it, so be it.

Well, obviously, I agree that the weight of the evidence is against a British Isles origin for L21, but I would still say that it is not unreasonable to believe that it did originate there. After all, there are arguments (wrongheaded though I think they are) for that position, and there is always the 1000-pound gorilla in the room: the sheer massive frequency of L21 in the Isles, especially in Ireland.

Of course, that gorilla loses a lot of weight when one considers the British Isles bias in the commerical y-dna databases, but, when all is said and done, he is really what is behind the belief that L21 originated in the British Isles.

Logic is a much more restricted field than reason, having to do with inferences, syllogisms and the like. As long as one avoids fallacies, it is possible to make a logical argument for either position on the question of the origin of L21.
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y24
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« Reply #219 on: May 14, 2010, 08:43:52 AM »

Maybe a naive question, but haplogroups "I1" and "R1a" are found in greatest numbers in Scandinavia. Is it generally accepted that the lower amounts of these haplogroups, when found in Britain, were carried there by the vikings?

"R1b-L21" is found in greatest numbers in Ireland and the British Isles so why are the Isles not accepted as a possible place of origin for L21 when it is found in Europe and Scandinavia? Seems like different rules for different haplogroups.
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« Reply #220 on: May 14, 2010, 12:08:50 PM »

Maybe a naive question, but haplogroups "I1" and "R1a" are found in greatest numbers in Scandinavia. Is it generally accepted that the lower amounts of these haplogroups, when found in Britain, were carried there by the vikings?

"R1b-L21" is found in greatest numbers in Ireland and the British Isles so why are the Isles not accepted as a possible place of origin for L21 when it is found in Europe and Scandinavia? Seems like different rules for different haplogroups.
I don't think you can apply a rationale as simply as that without considering other information (i.e. brother and ancestral clades, TMRCA estimates, total distribution, diversity, etc.)

For instance, if you apply the same question to R1a and ask "Where did R1a originate?" you'd get a completely different set of things to look at.  R1a does appear in Scandinavia and although I'm not an expert in it (or anything here that matter!)  I believe you'll find a lot of R1a out way back in Russia/Central Asia and even across down towards India.  R1 and R2 appear to be back in Central Asia as well.   R1a probably did not originate in Scandinavia.   R1a in Britain may have mostly come from Scandinavia, but I think there is some argument on that.  R1a may have come from Continental Europe as well, possibly with some waves of farming advances.

Hg I1 may be a completely different matter.  I know even less about it but Hg I itself may have been in Europe and in Britain a very long time.  Some Hg I may have been there so long they may be the true natives.

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« Reply #221 on: May 14, 2010, 12:20:36 PM »

... If someone wants to believe L21 originated in the British Isles, that's fine. Maybe it did. It's not an unreasonable position to hold....
Of course everyone can believe in what they want.  However, I think we want to use logic along with civility in public discourse.  I am not sure if is unreasonable is the right descriptor, but I do think it is illogical to think that L21 originated in the British Isles.  If someone has evidence it did originate there, let them describe it; but if the weight of the evidence goes against it, so be it.

Well, obviously, I agree that the weight of the evidence is against a British Isles origin for L21, but I would still say that it is not unreasonable to believe that it did originate there. ....
Okay, reasonable, logicial or whatever, I think the point is that it is highly unlikely that the Isles are the original source for L21.  I'm okay it is sourced out of the Isles.  I don't really care other that I'd like to know the truth, I just haven't seen nor heard of any logic and evidence that makes much sense to me when you look under the covers.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 12:21:46 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #222 on: May 14, 2010, 12:29:44 PM »

... "R1b-L21" is found in greatest numbers in Ireland and the British Isles ...
y24, I don't agree with this presumption.  R-L21 is found in greatest numbers in the commercial databases for the most distant known ancestors that are categorized as British Isles (I'm including Ireland in that.)  However, when normalized for testing rates and total populations you get completely different answers.  This is something I posted on another thread.

FTDNA Ancestral Origins thread http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9348.0
Quote from: Mikewww
Among the countries listed below, here is the total normalized population of
R-L21* expected per country as a proportion of all of the below countries:

Ireland 8% (of the total)

Scotland 4%

Wales 5%

England 21% (so England is the biggest R-L21* country in the Isles)

Germany 13%

France 49% (that's right, France is large state that is under tested)

In summary, of the above countries it is projected that 49% of all R-L21* found will be in France.

I'm not trying to say the above numbers are extremely accurate, but just trying to highlight RMS2's point that our current public databases are so American immigrant/Isles biased that we shouldn't use their absolute numbers to characterize a true population distribution, even in modern times.
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« Reply #223 on: May 14, 2010, 02:19:58 PM »

Maybe a naive question, but haplogroups "I1" and "R1a" are found in greatest numbers in Scandinavia. Is it generally accepted that the lower amounts of these haplogroups, when found in Britain, were carried there by the vikings?

"R1b-L21" is found in greatest numbers in Ireland and the British Isles so why are the Isles not accepted as a possible place of origin for L21 when it is found in Europe and Scandinavia? Seems like different rules for different haplogroups.

The idea that the origin point is where most is found today just doesnt work.  That logic is why people thought M269 originated in Iberia (with the Basques especially noted) but this completely fell apart when SNPs showed that Iberian and indeed the vast bulk of west European R1b is of derived young clade types far younger than SW Asia and SE Europe. 

There is also the phylogeny which does follow a SE to NW trajectory.  Why would L21, which has been dated to near identical ages to P310 and S116 upstream suddenly have changes direction. 

There is simply way too much L21 in France, Switzerland, SW Germany etc to explain that as coming from the isles.    Prehistoric Archaeology is full of examples of movements from those areas to the isles but is silent about reverse movements.  Unlike in modern times where a market economy and mass produced goods, buildings etc mean that people can move and start a new life without leaving much of a trace of their origins in their material culture (e.g. 19th century immigrants) in most of the prehistory of northern Europe crafts were homemade (pottery etc), you did everything yourself or in small localised groups (build houses etc) in handed down folk traditions and therefore when there were folk movements of ordinary people to new places in reasonable numbers they left a trail of intrusive looking remains.
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« Reply #224 on: May 14, 2010, 07:00:31 PM »

I was looking on the Yahoo L21 group spreadsheet and most of the highest continental variance for L21 is found among the L21's in the north and east France category.  In particular, I was looking at the mutations on the very slow and slow markers.  Individually, there are some diverse L21's in Spain, Italy, North Atlantic France, but a cluster of higher variance is in this North East region.
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