World Families Forums - The Origin of L21

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 18, 2014, 07:36:02 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  The Origin of L21
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The Origin of L21  (Read 23483 times)
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« on: November 22, 2008, 09:05:34 AM »

So, did L21 originate in the British Isles or on the Continent?

It's too early to tell for sure, but what do you think?

Here's something I posted on the Rootsweb DNA List this morning:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-11/1227357815

Quote

A friend of mine (Rick Arnold) has suggested a possible L21 scenario based
on his reading of Henri Hubert's old book, "The Rise of the Celts."
Apparently Hubert wrote that the Goidels once inhabited NW Germany but left
lock, stock and barrel during the Bronze Age for the British Isles. Hubert
found similarities in the layout of some Bronze Age NW German farms and
Irish farms (as opposed to the usual German farm layout) and certain
artifacts common to both Britain and NW Germany such as flanged axes with
hammered and incised decorations, flat-tanged swords, and certain kinds of
brooches and torques, as well as other items.

I realize Hubert's work is somewhat dated, but at least he, unlike most
modern authors, would countenance the idea of some sort of migration. I
haven't read his books yet, but I just ordered the two-volume set on the
Celts from Amazon and am looking forward to its arrival
.
Logged

Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 292


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 12:12:30 PM »

I vote for a Continental origin. My research suggests two pathways into the British Isles for the Goidel (Gael or Féni), which does house R-U152 and R-L21.

1. Migration to Ireland from northern Spain or southern France,

2. Migration from Central Europe (Germany) into the British Isles (England, Wales, Ireland, and Scotland)

I state in a previous post at this forum entitled R1b1c10 (S28+) in Ireland posted 4 November 2007 that "it is possible these waves of migration were all Germanic in origin." Granted that post is dated before the discovery of R-L21 and in response to the so-called Viking origin of R-U152 proposed at that time, however, it is still my hypothesis that these migrations came out of Central Italy to Central Europe (Germany/France) then proceeded into the British Isles via the above two routes.   
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 08:04:45 PM »

I vote for a Continental origin. My research suggests two pathways into the British Isles for the Goidel (Gael or Féni), which does house R-U152 and R-L21.

1. Migration to Ireland from northern Spain or southern France,

2. Migration from Central Europe (Germany) into the British Isles (England, Wales, Ireland, and Scotland)

I state in a previous post at this forum entitled R1b1c10 (S28+) in Ireland posted 4 November 2007 that "it is possible these waves of migration were all Germanic in origin." Granted that post is dated before the discovery of R-L21 and in response to the so-called Viking origin of R-U152 proposed at that time, however, it is still my hypothesis that these migrations came out of Central Italy to Central Europe (Germany/France) then proceeded into the British Isles via the above two routes.   

I'm thinking your #2 hypothesis above is the correct one. Thus far, Iberia has zero L21+. Of course, that could change, and do I expect there to be some L21+ there, but probably not much.
Logged

didier
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 09:13:12 PM »

So, if I understand correctly, Gael would be an alteration of Goi(d)el .  I am very surprised that such records exist. I had never heard of the Goidels.
Among the criticisms to such a rather recent migration will be the relatively high level of L21 in Ireland as it seems. So, no other population in this isle before ? Or, the original population was eliminated ?
I still remenber that the high level of "R1b" as it was called in Ireland and Basque area was one of the big question when I discover this field. I would say, it still is ; even if the groups are now more precise.

Didier
Logged
Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 292


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 11:00:37 PM »

From my understanding, Gael comes from the word Gaelic. And yes, Irish R1b is still the unanswered question it was at the beginning of this century. Where are the professional studies for R? Why did the professional genetic community abdicate its role and leave this to the amateur genetic community to solve?
Logged
chris1
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 66


« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 11:26:50 AM »

Just thinking out loud.. does the following make sense?

R1b L21+ are the oldest R1b inhabitants of Britain, entering the Isles from Europe before most of the other clades? This seems to be suggested by the large amounts of L21+ in the west of the British Isles today. There appear to be no later, large scale invasions to contradict that L21+ got to Ireland first before the other R1b clades.

Was there a split or fragmentation within the original R1b 'clan' somewhere in Europe in Neolithic or Bronze Age times? Did it happen within the space of a few centuries resulting in different, but related, tribes (U152, U106, L21+/- etc.)

Sometime shortly after this fragmentation the bulk of L21+ headed across the channel to Britain.

So is L21- a more recent (but older in age) continental arrival to Britain? So far it is found more frequently on the eastern side of Great Britain in areas of migration age historical settlement.

Maybe L21- milled around in Europe for some centuries, eventually crossing the sea to join their L21+ British cousins in early medieval times, traveling with the Anglo-Saxon's, then the Vikings, then later the Normans?
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 02:38:08 PM »

I think it's hard to say. Remember, British L21- is R-P312*. Some of it may predate the arrival of L21+ in Britain, and some of it could have come later.

L21 is not old enough to have arrived in Britain when those islands were empty.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 03:36:21 PM »

I just added another placemark to my R-L21* Map, Placemark 34, in Poznan, Poland (old Posen, Germany). It is for Krueger, who was tested L21+ by 23andMe.

http://tinyurl.com/5jbxz8
Logged

chris1
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 66


« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2008, 06:33:55 AM »

Remember, British L21- is R-P312*. Some of it may predate the arrival of L21+ in Britain, and some of it could have come later.

L21 is not old enough to have arrived in Britain when those islands were empty.

That leaves the question of where did L21- R-312* vanish if it was in Ireland along with, or before, L21+?

I realize there's not much data to go on yet, but the high frequency of L21+ in Ireland is striking at the moment when compared with England which looks 50/50.


Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2008, 08:56:58 AM »

Remember, British L21- is R-P312*. Some of it may predate the arrival of L21+ in Britain, and some of it could have come later.

L21 is not old enough to have arrived in Britain when those islands were empty.

That leaves the question of where did L21- R-312* vanish if it was in Ireland along with, or before, L21+?

I realize there's not much data to go on yet, but the high frequency of L21+ in Ireland is striking at the moment when compared with England which looks 50/50.

That's assuming Irish L21+ holds up at its present rate.

A subclade does not have to arrive in a place first in order to be the most populous subclade there.

My guess is there is a lot of R1b1b2 in California, Oregon, and Washington now, but it wasn't there first.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 08:59:58 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2008, 11:44:32 AM »

So, if I understand correctly, Gael would be an alteration of Goi(d)el .  I am very surprised that such records exist. I had never heard of the Goidels.
.....
For those who choose to believe, we know exactly where the Gaels come from. 

Here is a quote describing the story:
"The language they spoke, Goidelic was named after their ancestor Goidel Glas. According to the Christian scribes he was the son of Niul son of Fenius Farsaid and Scota daughter of an earlier Egyptian pharaoh (not Mil's wife). Fenius Farsaid was the son of Bathath, son of Magog, son of Japheth and son of Noah. The monks liked to neatly connect everything back to the Flood.   According to the Irish Book of Invasions he was born in Egypt to where his father Niul had emigrated and married Scota. Goidel was instructed in languages by his grandfather Fenius who then migrated to the Russian Steppes in the region known as Scythia where he became a great king. "

BTW, the same applies to the Brits, their exact origin an migration under the leadership of "Brutus" has been written down for centuries in a legendary form.     

Just to be sure no one misunderstands; I don't ascribe to the legends, but I think they should not be totally discarded.  There may be a legitimate origination information, albeit unconfirmable, derived from the legends. 
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2008, 09:01:26 PM »

So, if I understand correctly, Gael would be an alteration of Goi(d)el .  I am very surprised that such records exist. I had never heard of the Goidels.
.....
For those who choose to believe, we know exactly where the Gaels come from. 

Here is a quote describing the story:
"The language they spoke, Goidelic was named after their ancestor Goidel Glas. According to the Christian scribes he was the son of Niul son of Fenius Farsaid and Scota daughter of an earlier Egyptian pharaoh (not Mil's wife). Fenius Farsaid was the son of Bathath, son of Magog, son of Japheth and son of Noah. The monks liked to neatly connect everything back to the Flood.   According to the Irish Book of Invasions he was born in Egypt to where his father Niul had emigrated and married Scota. Goidel was instructed in languages by his grandfather Fenius who then migrated to the Russian Steppes in the region known as Scythia where he became a great king. "

BTW, the same applies to the Brits, their exact origin an migration under the leadership of "Brutus" has been written down for centuries in a legendary form.     

Just to be sure no one misunderstands; I don't ascribe to the legends, but I think they should not be totally discarded.  There may be a legitimate origination information, albeit unconfirmable, derived from the legends. 

I agree. The old legends should be taken into consideration.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 08:33:31 AM by rms2 » Logged

cmblandford
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 85


« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2008, 04:02:51 PM »

I think the data we currently have, early as it is, favors a migration similar to the migration of Brutus.  If I remember correctly this was by sea; out of the Med, around Iberia and up the coast of Gaul.  He delayed in western Gaul and elsewhere briefly and then settled in Britain.  He and his decedents made many excursions back to the continent and left some remnants there but returned to Britain.  The continental migration of U152+ is very evident.  It appears to be a different pattern to me.
Logged

Y-DNA:  R-DF13*


Surname Project:  Blandford

Kit:  ft115893   Ysearch:  EYSPZ


Earliest Known Ancestor:  Thomas Blanford; Dorset, England; born 1648


rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2008, 04:06:14 PM »

I think the data we currently have, early as it is, favors a migration similar to the migration of Brutus.  If I remember correctly this was by sea; out of the Med, around Iberia and up the coast of Gaul.  He delayed in western Gaul and elsewhere briefly and then settled in Britain.  He and his decedents made many excursions back to the continent and left some remnants there but returned to Britain.  The continental migration of U152+ is very evident.  It appears to be a different pattern to me.

You could be right, but remember, testing for U152 has been around since 2005. It took awhile for all those continental results to show up.

L21 was just discovered last month!

I'm guessing eastern France-western Germany, but time will tell.

It's all good to me, and it's fun trying to guess!
Logged

didier
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2008, 10:44:20 PM »

I contacted  Lucotte again. I am trying to get him test all his samples collected in France in a join publication with those doing these "genome-wide" studies. All they need is to include the 23andME set of  Y  SNPs and make good use of this wide sampling from France. Right now it looks like a dream , I know, but I'll try this dream comes true.
Logged
GoldenHind
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 731


« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2008, 09:23:13 PM »

You will not be surprised to learn that a certain person on another forum has proclaimed that anyone who has taken Statistics 101 can see that L21 originated in Britain, and that any continental results are descendants of slaves etc. I have been criticised there for suggesting that we should wait for more L21 results on the continent before jumping to conclusions.
Personally, I suspect it may well have a northwest continental origin, but I do think it is way to early to start drawing any firm conclusions.
Logged
Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
Project Coordinator
Old Hand
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 292


WWW
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2008, 10:05:24 PM »

No, Not Surprised At All!
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2008, 11:04:33 AM »

You will not be surprised to learn that a certain person on another forum has proclaimed that anyone who has taken Statistics 101 can see that L21 originated in Britain, and that any continental results are descendants of slaves etc. I have been criticised there for suggesting that we should wait for more L21 results on the continent before jumping to conclusions.
Personally, I suspect it may well have a northwest continental origin, but I do think it is way to early to start drawing any firm conclusions.

You're right, I'm not surprised.

What would we do if that person ever came down on the side that made sense?

I for one would wonder if I had lost my own mind.
Logged

chris1
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 66


« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2008, 09:25:24 AM »

Remember, British L21- is R-P312*. Some of it may predate the arrival of L21+ in Britain, and some of it could have come later.

L21 is not old enough to have arrived in Britain when those islands were empty.

That leaves the question of where did L21- R-312* vanish if it was in Ireland along with, or before, L21+?

I realize there's not much data to go on yet, but the high frequency of L21+ in Ireland is striking at the moment when compared with England which looks 50/50.

That's assuming Irish L21+ holds up at its present rate.

A subclade does not have to arrive in a place first in order to be the most populous subclade there.

My guess is there is a lot of R1b1b2 in California, Oregon, and Washington now, but it wasn't there first.

? I wasn't suggesting 'there is more there today, therefore they originated there'.

Ireland looks to have a lot of L21+. Only legends tell us of the Milesian/Goidelic passenger lists, but there might be something to the old stories. I think the latest great legendary invasion of Ireland was in the 1st or 2nd  century BC by the Goidels/Milesians. There seem to be some L21+ recently appearing in France. O' Rahilly speculates the Q-Celtic Goidels/Milesians originated in SE Gaul in the Alps. He says they migrated to the west coast no later than 120BC, or at least before 50BC when the rest of Gaul was subjected to Roman rule.

Also the Eoganacht similarly arrived some time between 325-50BC. They have been identified, through surname analysis, as likely members of the South Irish R1b cluster. Early days, but one possible member of this cluster has tested L21-.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-11/1227982968

Apparently more South Irish R1b cluster results are due in soon. There's some evidence they thought themselves distinct from the Erainn, being possibly a Belgic tribe, the Eburones described by Caesar as being 'Germans on this side of the Rhine.'

There are also results appearing for the R1b NS cluster. They are L21- and seem to emerge from Germany to spread all round Europe, including Britain and Spain:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-11/1228016268
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2008, 10:45:49 AM »

I don't think anyone is quite sure where that N-S cluster originated. From what i have seen, there are a lot of Iberians who belong to it.

Eventually, I guess, haplotype diversity might give us some sense of which way it traveled.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2008, 08:32:26 PM »

Where are all the L21 results?

I keep waiting every day for FTDNA to cough up a few more L21 results - especially the continental ones - and every day I have to tell myself to be patient.

AAARRRGGGHHH!!!

Well, at least our members keep ordering L21. By February or March we ought to see some signs.
Logged

rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2008, 09:35:00 AM »

I don't think we have enough L21 results yet to say much, if anything, conclusive, but here are some European stats anyway.

Total European L21 Results (positive and negative) = 84

L21+ = 49 (58% of the total)

L21- = 35 (42% of the total)

British Isles

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 58 (69% of the total)

L21+ = 40 (69% of British Isles results, 48% of the total, 82% of all L21+)

L21- = 18 (31% of British Isles results, 21% of the total, 51% of all L21-)

Ireland

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 22 (26% of the total)

L21+ = 20 (91% of Irish results, 24% of the total, 41% of all L21+)

L21- = 2 (9% of Irish results, 2% of the total, 6% of L21-)

England

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 20 (24% of the total)

L21+ = 9 (45% of English results, 11% of the total, 18% of L21+)

L21- = 11 (55% of English results, 13% of the total, 31% of L21-)

Scotland

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 13 (15% of the total)

L21+ = 8 (62% of Scottish results, 10% of the total, 16% of L21+)

L21- = 5 (38% of Scottish results, 6% of the total, 14% of L21-)

Wales

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 2 (2% of the total)

L21+ = 2 (100% of Welsh results, 2% of the total, 4% of L21+)

L21- = 0

Isle of Man

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 1 (~1% of the total)

L21+ = 1 (100% of Isle of Man results, ~1% of the total, ~2% of L21+)

L21- = 0

European Continent (excluding the British Isles)

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 26 (31% of the total)

L21+ = 9 (35% of continental results, 11% of total results, 18% of L21+)

L21- = 17 (65% of continental results, 20% of total results, 49% of L21-)

France

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 7 (8% of the total)

L21+ = 5 (71% of French results, 6% of the total, 10% of L21+)

L21- = 2 (29% of French results, ~2% of the total, 6% of L21-)

Germany (ethnic Germans elsewhere in Europe included)

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 7 (8% of the total)

L21+ = 3 (43% of German results, 4% of the total, 6% of L21+)

L21- = 4 (57% of German results, 5% of the total, 11% of L21-)

Iberia (1 ethnic Iberian from Italy included)

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 5 (6% of the total)

L21+ = 0

L21- = 5 (100% of the Iberian total, 6% of the total, 14% of L21-)

Sweden (1 ethnic Swede from Finland included)

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 3 (4% of the total)

L21+ = 0

L21- = 3 (100% of the Swedish total, 4% of the total, 9% of L21-)

Norway

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 1 (~1% of the total)

L21+ = 1 (100% of the Norwegian total, ~1% of the total, 2% of L21+)

L21- = 0

Belgium

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 1 (see Norway)

L21+ = 0

L21- = 1 (100% of Belgian results, ~1% of the total, 3% of L21-)

Ukraine

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 1

L21+ = 0

L21- = 1 (see Belgium)

Lithuania

Total L21 Results (positive and negative) = 1

L21+ = 0

L21- = 1 (see Belgium)

I put this together starting pretty early this morning, so if I made any errors, please excuse me.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 09:38:42 AM by rms2 » Logged

eochaidh
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 400


« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2008, 12:31:43 PM »

Thanks for the results break down! Very useful!! Good work, Rich!

Thanks,  Miles
Logged

Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2008, 01:39:38 PM »

Thanks for the results break down! Very useful!! Good work, Rich!

Thanks,  Miles

Thanks, Miles.

We need a lot more results, of course.

But of what we have of continental L21 results - just 26, admittedly - 35% is L21+. For nine L21+ men to pop up on the Continent merely by chance among the first 26 results, if L21+ is not fairly common there, strikes me as unlikely. And 35% seems too high to account for by chalking L21 up to a British Isles origin.

Another thing to remember is that continental total is for the entire European Continent exclusive of the British Isles, and that includes places like Iberia, which seems practically devoid of L21, whereas France seems to have British Isles levels of L21+ and Germany exceeds 40%.
Logged

chris1
Senior Member
***
Online Online

Posts: 66


« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2008, 06:21:36 AM »

I'm still trying to maintain an open mind at this early stage, but taking Britain as a whole in context with northern Europe (perhaps using the Prime Meridian as a dividing line), the distribution trend is L21+ mostly west of the line, L21- mostly east (except for northern Spain).

Another interesting thing, a recent post by Tim Janzen on Rootsweb DNA list mentioned TMRCA dates for L21+ . His dates suggest that L21+ in England and Wales is younger than in Ireland/Scotland.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-12/1228802569
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.126 seconds with 19 queries.