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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2009, 03:48:04 AM »

Very good quotes, I think we can be more or less clear with the following:
U-106, L21 and U-152 seem to be placed on different parts of the Rhine (from North to South respectively). Note that U-106 is the most frequent in the Netherlands (low Rhine), L21 could have originated on the middle Rhine and U-152 in Northern Switzerland/La Tene area (upper Rhine).
One thing can be sure that U-106 could not be in the Hannover/Hamburg area as there Hg I2b ("Saxon") folks were dwelling still around 1000 BC, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenstein_Cave

I would agree that L-21 was the Q-Celtic branch and U-152 (plus some L-21 who joined them around Belgium) the P-Celtic.

If U-106 joined some Q-Celtic folks or not that can only be decided if Irish U-106 is very far from English and German U-106, because they had to be separated for 3000-3500 years.
The other possibility is that U-106 only emerged after the Q-Celtic migration therefore could not join them.
Now for me, the following populating of Britain seems likely:
1. Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (Hg G, I2a1-M26)
2. Neolithic farmers / long-barrows (Hg E-M78)
3. Beakers in the Early Bronze Age:  R1b1b2 (x U-106,P-312) and P-312*
4. Q-Celts in the Late Bronze Age (1200-700 BC): L-21
5. P-Celts in the Iron Age (750-500 BC): U-152 plus L-21 who joined
6. Anglo-Saxons from the 4th-5th century AD: mostly U-106, I2b and I1.
7. Vikings whose mark is R1a plus I1, but possibly included some R1b as well.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 04:27:22 AM by Jafety R1b-U152 » Logged

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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2009, 03:50:54 AM »

Plus, I wanted to mention that I calculated from Y data that less than 5% of British and Irish population derives from Mesolithic and Neolithic peoples which proves a mass migration and male-line replacement theory.
(Mesolithic F*,G and I2a1-M26; Neolithic: E-M78)
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rms2
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« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2009, 08:02:34 AM »

The famous "Amesbury Archer" finds match what Hubert was talking about, and isotope analysis of his teeth supports Hubert's assertion that the Beaker Folk came from the Continent:

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/projects/amesbury/archer.html
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Pendragon1962
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« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2009, 11:31:02 PM »

Here's some interesting reading:


Who were the "Ancient Britons"?

http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/cml/cml07.htm
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« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2009, 11:07:06 AM »

Here's some interesting reading:


Who were the "Ancient Britons"?

http://sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/cml/cml07.htm

That was interesting. I think I'll buy that book when I get the chance.
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rms2
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« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2009, 11:11:49 AM »

Here is something that was posted by Mike on another thread but needs to be here, since it has a lot to do with the origin of L21.

A fellow who goes by Authun dug this up for another forum.  Bell Beaker folks did impact Scandinavia:
Quote from: Authun
THE BEAKER CULTURE AND BRONZE AGE BEGINNINGS ALONG THE NORWEGIAN COAST; SO MUCH SO FAST (Christopher Prescott)

The Late Neolithic (the LN,2350-1750 BC) in Norway can be regarded as the initiation of the Bronze Age in southern and coastal Norway. LN-developments were probably sparked by Beaker influences, conceivably also migration, from northern Jutland in Denmark to Lista and Jæren in Southern Norway, and are thus part of wider southern Scandinavian development around the Battle Axe Period to LNBeaker transition.

From these geographically and chronologically restricted beginnings, early LN technology, modes of production and culture quickly spread throughout southern
and coastal replacing older social, cultural and production forms, and redefining a historical trajectory. Spreading perhaps as far as 1000 km from the Beaker areas in Lista and Rogaland, the speed in which these wide-reaching and dramatic changes took place is equally remarkable, perhaps taking place within a generation.

LATE NEOLITHIC EXPANSION TO NORWAY – MEMORIES OF A SEA-BORNE EPISODE (Einar Østmo)

During the Early and Middle Neolithic, South Scandinavian Neolithic cultures were present in Norway foremost in the Oslo Fiord region in SE Norway. Late Neolithic finds are however abundant above all in SW Norway, certainly testifying to the opening of the sea route across the Skagerrak. These finds include Bell Beaker pottery and pressure-flaked points with tang and barbs, in addition to numerous flint daggers and other items. Arguably, the sea-borne expansion was connected with recent inventions concerning shipbuilding, probably made possible by the new metal tools, foremost axes. This marks the beginning of the Northern shipbuilding tradition, distinct from those found in Britain and in the Mediterranean and gave rise to the development of Scandinavian shipbuilding during the Bronze and Iron Ages.



If the Beaker Folk brought L21 to Britain and, subsequently, Ireland, then the presence of L21 in Norway might be due to the same source rather than to relatively recent historical sources like (celibate) Irish monks or Scottish sailors, etc.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 11:15:09 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2009, 08:11:52 AM »

Here is a pretty good short article on the Beaker Folk in Britain:

http://www.templeresearch.eclipse.co.uk/bronze/ab.htm
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2009, 06:36:17 PM »

In Part V of "Origins of the Celts," Hubert discusses "The Goidelic Cradle".......
I've got my new book in, "The History of the Celts" by Henry Hubert.  I'm ready to catch up.
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« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2009, 07:16:02 PM »

I've got my new book in, "The History of the Celts" by Henry Hubert.  I'm ready to catch up.

I just ordered a new book this morning:
The Celtic Realms, by Myles Dillon and Nora Chadwick.

Dave Burnett quoted it at some length on our Yahoo group, and I thought it sounded good. The price was right at Amazon, so I ordered it.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 07:16:38 PM by rms2 » Logged

argiedude
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« Reply #84 on: April 09, 2009, 09:30:14 PM »

How many L21+ samples have tested for P66?
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vtilroe
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« Reply #85 on: April 09, 2009, 09:56:57 PM »

P66 is part of the standard R deep-clade test, so everyone who has done the R deep-clade will have a P66 result.  In the case of the R-L21 Plus project, that would be everyone who has been assigned to a subgroup.

If a confirmed P66+ did show up in a FTDNA hosted project or on Ysearch, it would/should display as R1b1b2a1b5c.

When Ysearch was updated a few weeks ago, several R1b1b2a1b5c (tested) entries did appear, but when I asked Darrin Marin @ FTDNA about them, it turned out to be an IT glitch.

EDIT: Everyone who has been tested for M222 will have been tested for P66, which means that the men who don't have an M222 result had ordered L21 a-la-carte and haven't had the complete deep-clade.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 10:12:50 PM by vtilroe » Logged

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pcusack1
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« Reply #86 on: August 02, 2009, 12:06:27 AM »

In looking at the map, I find the concentration in Germany running from Cologne to Stuttgart of great interest.

As a confirmed  R1b1b2a1b6, L21/s145 I've found that there are three persons to whom I am genetically related within the last 23-26 generations (676 years) at a GD of 1 on 18 markers. They are a Mitchell, Shuman, and Keith.  Shuman is Bohemian, Keith is Scotish, but originally reported as from Hesse, Germany, and Mithcell is Hebrew  or Old French but is also German Jew.

The  3 names are Jewish according to the Jewish Surnames index.  And John Entine's book "Abraham's children" tells us that there were Jews in the Rhine River Valley in the 6th 8th Century.

Another connection is that the rare marker DYS391=12 is present in the 3 mentioned.  The rare marker is also reported to appear in Stuttgart.

My ancestry probably comes out of Babylon to Khazachstan (Jewish Khazaria) on to Western Russia. From there I suspect they migrated into the Rhine River area. They may instead come accross the Black Sea to travel up the Danube River to Southern Germany.  From there they may have gone straight to Ireland, or perhaps France or Spain first before Ireland.

Could L21 be a Jewish marker?
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vtilroe
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« Reply #87 on: August 04, 2009, 08:12:47 PM »

As I understand it, Jewishness is usually a matriarchal deal (and thus a stronger association with mtDNA), and is not necessarily associated with the Y-chromosome.

My current thinking - based on how things look now - is that L21 emerged somewhere around the upper Rhine/Danube headwaters.  Depending on how data develops, it could easily move east or west somewhat, but I simply don't see any evidence right now that would indicate a possible origin in the Lavant or East Mediterranean coast.

I tend to think that any Jewish association of L21 would have happened after and  consequence of the Diaspora (circa- and post 70 CE) as a result of mixing with existing European Germanic/Celtic cultures.
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pcusack1
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« Reply #88 on: August 05, 2009, 09:34:19 PM »

There are Cohen Modal Haplotypes that are R1b's -both Ashkenasi ands Sephardic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

The Coyen's in Ireland are thought to be a variation on Cohen besides the Irish version.  I'm a GD of 4 on 33 markers on a Coyne and am an L21/s145.
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« Reply #89 on: August 05, 2009, 10:40:06 PM »

There are Cohen Modal Haplotypes that are R1b's -both Ashkenasi ands Sephardic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

The Coyen's in Ireland are thought to be a variation on Cohen besides the Irish version.  I'm a GD of 4 on 33 markers on a Coyne and am an L21/s145.
Please start a new thread for the topic of Cohen modals, etc.  I'm not sure how this relates to the origin of L21, but it is an extensive and sensitive topic in its owns right and deserves its own thread.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2009, 09:47:37 AM »

I thought this little exchange was amusing so I'll throw it in.

On another forum I said, "The interesting thing is that P312, U152 and L21 all "exploded" on the scene at pretty much the same time.   U106 was not far off time-wise.  Something big happened!"

I didn't think the above was controversial, but I received a counter alternative from someone who's handles indicated a southern European heritage.   I won't use his handle since this was a direct email exchange.
Quote from: IdentityProtected
P312 exploded first, then U152 and L21 second. the question is if P312 is now in three locations in considerable numbers, in comparison with the more localized L21 and U152,how could have happened at the same time?.

I replied "You must have an idea in mind.  What is your conclusion?"  Here is his reply:
Quote from: IdentityProtected
I am better at questions than answers. After re evaluating what you wrote  I realized of multiple possible answers but following logic, it would seem that P312 was established in all 3 (or more) locations and it's subclades were born in different sites much later.

I guess there is still the thought out there that R-P312 in Europe is Mesolithic or earlier.  The old R1b Iberian refugium.....
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« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2009, 02:38:05 PM »

Quote from: Connor
I was wondering if one of these incursions into the Po Valley coincided with incursions north of the Alps. Would one of these times in history match up with L21 introduction.

As the 5th century BC dawned, a Celtic horde swarmed through the easy passes of the Western Alps and conquered most of the Po Valley, apart Veneto which had its inhabitants, the Venetics likely of a distinct stock and in time already influenced by both Etruscans and Greeks.

The Po Valley for a time hosted the capital of the Western Roman Empire, in Mediolanum from 286 to 403, and then in Ravenna till the end. It was attacked in the 3rd century by Germanic tribes bursting out from the Alps and sacked two centuries later by Attila the Hun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley#Ancient_history
I am quoting Conner here rather than in the Scandinavian thread and "hijacking" it more than we already have.

My opinion is that L21+ expanded earlier than the historic era of the Roman Empire.  I think that since L21+, U152+ and the rest of P312+ are closely related we have to consider them in context.

For what it is worth, Celtic researcher Henri Hubert felt that something big happened that caused the Italo-Celtic split with Italics going into Italy and Celtics moving north into Western Europe and the Isles.   The impression I was left with was that even the Goidelic expansion into the Isles was related to the Italic and Celtic split.   This kind of event might have happened around 2000 BC according to PIE theorists.

It's just an interesting thought, but it does correlate with the concept that P312+ and its subclades expanded very quickly across Europe.  Something big must have happened.   ... and as far as the search for a Celtic hero (pardon me but I'm letting another topic in altogether) I think we can consider the unknown man, the Western Atlantic Modal progenitor man or his early offspring.  He might have been P312* or P310/P311*.
http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root

Someone or some clan was a kind of Niall or Genghis Kahn or something in terms of population success.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 02:45:11 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2009, 03:28:50 AM »

The WAM progenitor would have been likely pre-P312 and pre-U106.  I'll guess somewhere between L51 and P310.  According to Vince Vizachero's figures, that' may only be about 300-500 years before P312.
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« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »

I thought this little exchange was amusing so I'll throw it in.

On another forum I said, "The interesting thing is that P312, U152 and L21 all "exploded" on the scene at pretty much the same time.   U106 was not far off time-wise.  Something big happened!"

I didn't think the above was controversial, but I received a counter alternative from someone who's handles indicated a southern European heritage.   I won't use his handle since this was a direct email exchange.
Quote from: IdentityProtected
P312 exploded first, then U152 and L21 second. the question is if P312 is now in three locations in considerable numbers, in comparison with the more localized L21 and U152,how could have happened at the same time?.

I replied "You must have an idea in mind.  What is your conclusion?"  Here is his reply:
Quote from: IdentityProtected
I am better at questions than answers. After re evaluating what you wrote  I realized of multiple possible answers but following logic, it would seem that P312 was established in all 3 (or more) locations and it's subclades were born in different sites much later.

I guess there is still the thought out there that R-P312 in Europe is Mesolithic or earlier.  The old R1b Iberian refugium.....
I don't think that scenario requires a Mesolithic origin for P312 at all. Consider this possibility: P312 first arises either somewhere in the Pontic Caspian area, or perhaps a little later near the mouth of the Danube, in the late Neolithic or perhaps Copper Age. However P312 subclades aren't born, or at least aren't numerous enough to start a rapid expansion, until P312 has later already established itself at several different locations in Europe.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2009, 05:31:53 PM »

I thought this little exchange was amusing so I'll throw it in.

On another forum I said, "The interesting thing is that P312, U152 and L21 all "exploded" on the scene at pretty much the same time.   U106 was not far off time-wise.  Something big happened!"

I didn't think the above was controversial, but I received a counter alternative from someone who's handles indicated a southern European heritage.   I won't use his handle since this was a direct email exchange.
Quote from: IdentityProtected
P312 exploded first, then U152 and L21 second. the question is if P312 is now in three locations in considerable numbers, in comparison with the more localized L21 and U152,how could have happened at the same time?.

I replied "You must have an idea in mind.  What is your conclusion?"  Here is his reply:
Quote from: IdentityProtected
I am better at questions than answers. After re evaluating what you wrote  I realized of multiple possible answers but following logic, it would seem that P312 was established in all 3 (or more) locations and it's subclades were born in different sites much later.

I guess there is still the thought out there that R-P312 in Europe is Mesolithic or earlier.  The old R1b Iberian refugium.....
I don't think that scenario requires a Mesolithic origin for P312 at all. Consider this possibility: P312 first arises either somewhere in the Pontic Caspian area, or perhaps a little later near the mouth of the Danube, in the late Neolithic or perhaps Copper Age. However P312 subclades aren't born, or at least aren't numerous enough to start a rapid expansion, until P312 has later already established itself at several different locations in Europe.
The part that threw me off from the IdentityProtected guy is he said "it's (P312's) subclades were born in different sites much later".   I interpreted the words "much later" as implying a Mesolithic origin for P312.  Given the MRCA ages of U152 and L21 and P312, they weren't born in vastly different timeframes. "Born" isn't the right word anyway, it is should be the point of original significant expansion.  Their timeframe of original expansion is roughly the same. As with any SNP, P312+ could have been hanging around for some time before the expansion of our MRCA. I agree that P312+ could've existed all the way back to wherever R-M269 came from.

I think it is possible that P312 spread in a scattered or skeleton-like fashion and then exploded in different places.  Alan R's description of the Bell Beaker network kind of fits that anyway.  However, something big happened, whether from one place or from multiple places, simultaneously.  For some reason, the population of P312 grew dramatically relative to the other populations.

For the explosion to happen in several places simultaneously, the implication is that the communications/transportation system connecting these places efficient enough so that something like this could happen:
1) Someone in the network invents a new tool or weapon with their metal working skills and this technology spreads through the P312 tribal* network and along with it ability to impose and exploit a hegemonic relationship.
2) A disease is carried through the network but the carrier P312 tribes have an immunity and the pre-inhabitant populations decline greatly and quickly.
3) This is not actually network dependent but some very bad crop years caused a decline pre-inhabitant populations whereas the networked P312 tribes thrive anyway with their dairy cattle and lactase persistence.
4) The networked P312 tribes conspire long distance to organize a military uprising and overthrow the pre-inhabitant populations.  This would almost Trojan horse-like.  Spread out, infiltrate and then attack.  I will say the Greeks seems to have done this with the Minoans.

I'm sure there are more possibilities for a multi-point originated population explosion by the same peoples, but that's a few.

I still think it is simpler just to view it as that P312 rolled into Europe and spread very aggressively, essentially as a large movement.  No, it was not a single event, but an era (kind of like the Anglo-Saxon Invasion period) of aggressive expansion and migration.  There were undoubtedly different waves to the expansion, but they had some kind of advantage.  I would think it would be a shared advantage among P312 peoples.  Since the mtDNA doesn't appear to have flowed the same way, I don't think the major part of the advantage was just disease resistance or lactase persistence.

I don't have any hard core point of view on this.  It's just food for thought.

* For those who are sensitive about this, I'm not trying to imply that any tribe of this time was pure P312+ just that is a predominate group of these tribes.

  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 05:37:00 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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GoldenHind
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« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2009, 08:25:08 PM »

I thought this little exchange was amusing so I'll throw it in.

On another forum I said, "The interesting thing is that P312, U152 and L21 all "exploded" on the scene at pretty much the same time.   U106 was not far off time-wise.  Something big happened!"

I didn't think the above was controversial, but I received a counter alternative from someone who's handles indicated a southern European heritage.   I won't use his handle since this was a direct email exchange.
Quote from: IdentityProtected
P312 exploded first, then U152 and L21 second. the question is if P312 is now in three locations in considerable numbers, in comparison with the more localized L21 and U152,how could have happened at the same time?.

I replied "You must have an idea in mind.  What is your conclusion?"  Here is his reply:
Quote from: IdentityProtected
I am better at questions than answers. After re evaluating what you wrote  I realized of multiple possible answers but following logic, it would seem that P312 was established in all 3 (or more) locations and it's subclades were born in different sites much later.

I guess there is still the thought out there that R-P312 in Europe is Mesolithic or earlier.  The old R1b Iberian refugium.....
I don't think that scenario requires a Mesolithic origin for P312 at all. Consider this possibility: P312 first arises either somewhere in the Pontic Caspian area, or perhaps a little later near the mouth of the Danube, in the late Neolithic or perhaps Copper Age. However P312 subclades aren't born, or at least aren't numerous enough to start a rapid expansion, until P312 has later already established itself at several different locations in Europe.
The part that threw me off from the IdentityProtected guy is he said "it's (P312's) subclades were born in different sites much later".   I interpreted the words "much later" as implying a Mesolithic origin for P312.  Given the MRCA ages of U152 and L21 and P312, they weren't born in vastly different timeframes. "Born" isn't the right word anyway, it is should be the point of original significant expansion.  Their timeframe of original expansion is roughly the same. As with any SNP, P312+ could have been hanging around for some time before the expansion of our MRCA. I agree that P312+ could've existed all the way back to wherever R-M269 came from.

I think it is possible that P312 spread in a scattered or skeleton-like fashion and then exploded in different places.  Alan R's description of the Bell Beaker network kind of fits that anyway.  However, something big happened, whether from one place or from multiple places, simultaneously.  For some reason, the population of P312 grew dramatically relative to the other populations.

For the explosion to happen in several places simultaneously, the implication is that the communications/transportation system connecting these places efficient enough so that something like this could happen:
1) Someone in the network invents a new tool or weapon with their metal working skills and this technology spreads through the P312 tribal* network and along with it ability to impose and exploit a hegemonic relationship.
2) A disease is carried through the network but the carrier P312 tribes have an immunity and the pre-inhabitant populations decline greatly and quickly.
3) This is not actually network dependent but some very bad crop years caused a decline pre-inhabitant populations whereas the networked P312 tribes thrive anyway with their dairy cattle and lactase persistence.
4) The networked P312 tribes conspire long distance to organize a military uprising and overthrow the pre-inhabitant populations.  This would almost Trojan horse-like.  Spread out, infiltrate and then attack.  I will say the Greeks seems to have done this with the Minoans.

I'm sure there are more possibilities for a multi-point originated population explosion by the same peoples, but that's a few.

I still think it is simpler just to view it as that P312 rolled into Europe and spread very aggressively, essentially as a large movement.  No, it was not a single event, but an era (kind of like the Anglo-Saxon Invasion period) of aggressive expansion and migration.  There were undoubtedly different waves to the expansion, but they had some kind of advantage.  I would think it would be a shared advantage among P312 peoples.  Since the mtDNA doesn't appear to have flowed the same way, I don't think the major part of the advantage was just disease resistance or lactase persistence.

I don't have any hard core point of view on this.  It's just food for thought.

* For those who are sensitive about this, I'm not trying to imply that any tribe of this time was pure P312+ just that is a predominate group of these tribes.

  
I once tried to explain on another forum that there could be a considerable difference between the time when a new subclade is first born and when it was numerous enough for a rapid expansion, and was accused of "playing games."
I have long contended that the idea of hostile military invasions has been out of fashion with historians and archaeologists ever since WWII, but I do think it's foolish to ignore this possibility in trying to work out how how R1b became so dominant in Europe in such a short period.
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« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2009, 08:56:06 PM »

I have been pondering the question about the relative ages of P312. It seems to me that if P312 arose a "very long time" before L21, one should expect a substantial difference between the two modals.
Vince T. recently calculated a modal for P312* based on 240 people enrolled in that project at FTDNA. The result: exactly the same as the WAM.
I believe I remember someone saying that there is a single difference between the L21* and WAM modals.
Most of us how difficult it is to predict R1b subclades based on STR markers alone. Even DYS 492 isn't always accurate in determining the difference between U106 and P312, and that is only one marker.
Doesn't the fact that all M269 subclades have such similar STR markers indicate that not only are they not very old, but that they arose in fairly rapid succession?
If there is a flaw in this argument, perhaps someone could point it out to me.
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« Reply #97 on: December 18, 2009, 09:39:22 PM »

I have been pondering the question about the relative ages of P312. It seems to me that if P312 arose a "very long time" before L21, one should expect a substantial difference between the two modals.
Vince T. recently calculated a modal for P312* based on 240 people enrolled in that project at FTDNA. The result: exactly the same as the WAM.
I believe I remember someone saying that there is a single difference between the L21* and WAM modals.
Most of us how difficult it is to predict R1b subclades based on STR markers alone. Even DYS 492 isn't always accurate in determining the difference between U106 and P312, and that is only one marker.
Doesn't the fact that all M269 subclades have such similar STR markers indicate that not only are they not very old, but that they arose in fairly rapid succession?
If there is a flaw in this argument, perhaps someone could point it out to me.


That is what I have ALWAYS argued, since very soon after I got involved in this stuff, when everyone was telling us we were "Cro-Magnons" out of the "Iberian Ice Age Refuge".
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« Reply #98 on: December 19, 2009, 02:22:00 AM »

...
Doesn't the fact that all M269 subclades have such similar STR markers indicate that not only are they not very old, but that they arose in fairly rapid succession?
If there is a flaw in this argument, perhaps someone could point it out to me.
No flaws in your point. Several months ago Vince V described the ages in a short time-line on the Ht35 project over on dna-forums.  I repeated the conclusion just to make sure I didn't misunderstand and Vince confirmed.  Anatole K is essentially saying the same thing.  The TMRCA for U152 and L21 are essentially the same and P312 is only a couple of hundred years early (I mean just a couple.)  R106 wasn't far off.

That's what I mean by explosion.  These haplogroups must have taken off roughly together.  In different directions with some overlap, and perhaps mixed up to some degree, but roughly at the same time.  They must have had a common shared advantage.  I don't think it was something related to autosomal DNA because the mtDNA doesn't follow the same distribution patterns.

Violent? I don't know, but as Teddy Roosevelt would say, they must have had a "big stick."  Copper and Bronze weapons?  Maybe.  Perhaps Alan R can comment but I all hear is that the old swords looked to be largely ceremonial.

Perhaps the horses were key.  Perhaps all three. Some slightly larger fellows on large beasts with swords must have been scary.

Perhaps the wagons and horses together were most important. Lay people tend to underestimate the importance of logistics in battle, but these people seem to be good at networking/trading across distance so perhaps this was an important logistical pipeline as well for goods important to military or to hedgemony.

Perhaps it is what the little YouTube video in the Beaker topic said.  The most powerful weapon was the client/host relationship which allowed them to build alliances and work together or gave them the discipline to have some strategy in fighting. The same concept may have been extended to the soldier/king relationship. "You had a king and you did what he said."
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« Reply #99 on: December 19, 2009, 07:50:14 PM »

I have been pondering the question about the relative ages of P312. It seems to me that if P312 arose a "very long time" before L21, one should expect a substantial difference between the two modals.
Vince T. recently calculated a modal for P312* based on 240 people enrolled in that project at FTDNA. The result: exactly the same as the WAM.
I believe I remember someone saying that there is a single difference between the L21* and WAM modals.
Most of us how difficult it is to predict R1b subclades based on STR markers alone. Even DYS 492 isn't always accurate in determining the difference between U106 and P312, and that is only one marker.
Doesn't the fact that all M269 subclades have such similar STR markers indicate that not only are they not very old, but that they arose in fairly rapid succession? ....

One of my two all-time favorite threads is on another forum but it's topic is the Ht35 project, which I think is actually mislabeled. It's really about the SNP's upstream of P312 back to M269.

Vince V commented on Mar 7 09:
Quote
I'm attaching a tree that shows a relationship between the purported MRCAs for several major clades of R1b1b2 (R-L11, R-U106, R-P312, R-L21, and R-U152). The root is arbitrarily set at the halfway point between the MCRA of L11 and the MRCA of everyone else, but it could in reality root anywhere along that branch.
The branches are labeled with an estimated time (in years), such that it appears the MRCA of U106 lived about 262.5 years after the MRCA of P312+U106. Confidence intervals are actually several times the branch lengths themselves, so the relationships shown may not be precisely the real ones.
The main point of this is to show how brief the period of time was in which this whole episode unfolded.
Vince V commented on Mar 12 09:
Quote
I posted in the U106/P312 chronology thread, here's a tree that shows the relationship of the purported MRCAs for each major grouping. Think of the tips of each branch as MRCA for that clade.
It seems the entire backbone structure of R1b1b2 unfolded in 20 generations or so. It's pretty amazing. And the survival rate in this family of men appears to be quite high, suggesting to me that they were part of a growing and healthy population.
This is a link to the actual chart when converted from generations to years.
http://www.4shared.com/file/176943405/1dd28cc5/R-M269_and_Subclades_TMRCA_Tim.html

At that time I was surprised and I said "Great illustration! Thank you. Just to make sure I've got it right, it looks like L51's, L11's, P312's and U106's MRCA all lived with within about 300 years of each other, right?"
Vince's response:
Quote
That's right.

I have to go look up the estimates but L21 and U152 TMRCA's are essentially identical and very close to P312.   Something explosive and continuous happened from L51+ through to L21 and U152 and didn't lose its continuity (in Western Europe) into modern times.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2009, 11:32:52 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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