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GoldenHind
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« Reply #175 on: May 09, 2010, 04:18:23 PM »

@Goldenhind,

Most of those scenarios are plausible for L21 but only in a limited way.  The real issue I think is why is L21 comparatively more prolific than other Hg's and subclades in NW Europe.  I think L-21 was already firmly established in a larger historical horizon like the beaker phenomenon/bronze age through the pre-Roman Celtic age.  The surprising and growing amount of L21 in France makes the 'Out of the Isles' model seem even less credible now.
I couldn't agree more.
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rms2
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« Reply #176 on: May 09, 2010, 05:08:08 PM »

@Goldenhind,

Most of those scenarios are plausible for L21 but only in a limited way.  The real issue I think is why is L21 comparatively more prolific than other Hg's and subclades in NW Europe.  I think L-21 was already firmly established in a larger historical horizon like the beaker phenomenon/bronze age through the pre-Roman Celtic age.  The surprising and growing amount of L21 in France makes the 'Out of the Isles' model seem even less credible now.

I agree. In my opinion it is also going to start turning up on the Iberian Peninsula in a way that will be hard for the dna-forums bunch to explain away with randy, wandering Scots and lusty Irish monks.

I have decided not to let this sort of thing trouble me. In time the evidence will speak. I cannot imagine that L21 will be left out of scientific studies forever.
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Jdean
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« Reply #177 on: May 09, 2010, 07:02:38 PM »

Just when one starts to think that those wedded to an origin in the British Isles for L21 are moribund, the idea once again rears its ugly head. Here is the latest from another forum by what I suspect is the last die hard defender of the idea.

"A list of possible population movements that could have contributed to the movement of R1b-L21+:

1) Unknown prehistoric movements.
2) Trade, military movement, and alliance in the proto-historic Celtic world.
3) Population movements during the Roman Empire--mercenaries, trade, and (later) religion.
4) Flight from Germanic invaders on the continent.
5) Missionary activity post-Roman Empire.
6) Slaves taken by Vikings, Saxons, and others.
7) Flight of British Celts from Saxon invasion into Brittany.
8) Norman invasion of Britain.
9) Formation of medieval "New Towns"
10) Bottleneck of the Black Death.
11) Repopulation and social mobility in the wake of the Black Death.
12) Early Modern Trade (particularly maritime).
13) Scottish, English, and Irish mercenaries on continent.
14) Immigrations connected to the Reformation.
15) New World migrations, European settlement of Australia and New Zealand, Western Imperialism.
16) Reorganization of population related to the Industrial Revolution."

The wandering medieval monks, Viking slaves and Celtic mercenaries are still with us as the source of L21 on the continent. I am doing my best against this nonsense, with some assistance from jdean and others, but am taking an awful lot of abuse for doing so.



I was quite surprised how rude he got, credence to you for not stooping to his level.

I don't know if you noticed but he turned up on the L21 forum at Yahoo not long ago trying to defend the 'Wild Geese' idea, and boasting about his academic qualifications.

Ho Hum
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #178 on: May 09, 2010, 07:19:33 PM »

I assume he has plenty of peer-reviewed journals in the field that support his claim.

Whoops.
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Jdean
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« Reply #179 on: May 09, 2010, 07:45:25 PM »

I assume he has plenty of peer-reviewed journals in the field that support his claim.

Whoops.

Undoubtedly
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #180 on: May 10, 2010, 06:08:08 PM »

It is still not impossible that L21 is the French modal.  A recent study indicated that U152 is only the biggest clade in the east (Alsace) and elsewhere the combined S116*/L21* group is the largest one.  I see nowhere in France on project maps where S116* appears more common than L21 and there is no obvious reason why even poor levels of testing should favour one of these over the other - they both by definition require an L21 test.  So it seems that L21 is probably the majority of the S116*/L21* majority.  Again, for a clade with years of a head start, U152 does not look as strong as L21 in France on project maps.  So, although it is necessary to read between the lines somewhat, everything points to L21 being present in France at the sort of levels that might even make it the French modal.  That surely is not compatible with an out of isles model. 
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #181 on: May 10, 2010, 09:23:29 PM »

It is still not impossible that L21 is the French modal.  A recent study indicated that U152 is only the biggest clade in the east (Alsace) and elsewhere the combined S116*/L21* group is the largest one.  I see nowhere in France on project maps where S116* appears more common than L21 and there is no obvious reason why even poor levels of testing should favour one of these over the other - they both by definition require an L21 test.  So it seems that L21 is probably the majority of the S116*/L21* majority.  Again, for a clade with years of a head start, U152 does not look as strong as L21 in France on project maps.  So, although it is necessary to read between the lines somewhat, everything points to L21 being present in France at the sort of levels that might even make it the French modal.  That surely is not compatible with an out of isles model. 
I think it is still too early to be certain, but I would not be a bit surprised if L21 is the most common R1b subclade in France, although I would expect it to be more common in the northwest than the southeast.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #182 on: May 11, 2010, 04:10:06 PM »

Just when one starts to think that those wedded to an origin in the British Isles for L21 are moribund, the idea once again rears its ugly head. Here is the latest from another forum by what I suspect is the last die hard defender of the idea.
...
Last night I watched the "battlefield detective" story on the History Channel of "Alesia" and Caesar's victory over the Gauls and Vercingetorix so I'm psyched-up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia
http://www.history.com/shows/battles-bc/videos/battles-bc-caesar-the-battle-of-alesia#battles-bc-caesar-the-battle-of-alesia

I don't really care who was what haplogroup in the battle but there must have been some P312 folks there somewhere. I am psyched in that we owe a lot to the Old Italians (Romans) and the Greeks before them in their use of logic and order to "engineer" success. The video blurb doesn't do the show justice.  The commentators credit Roman field engineering, weaponry and professional soldier-ism for the edge... and yes, Caesar, was the right guy to exploit his advantages and neutralize the Gauls' strengths.  Ironically, some of the metal work the Romans used was probably copied from the Gauls.

Back on topic, I'm just saying that because of the hard work of folks like Rich S, Vince V, Alan R, Jean M and many others (including Goldenhind); the weight of evidence has been revealed to the point where I think the "out of Isles" hypothesis for L21 is be about ready to turn over in its grave for the last time.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #183 on: May 11, 2010, 06:01:38 PM »

If Brennus stayed in Rome, there would be no Roman Empire.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #184 on: May 11, 2010, 06:05:11 PM »

Personally I doubt that we should think of the various clades of s116 as having seperate origins. The variance dates would suggest they all were part of a single expansion and that the expansion reached the isles rapidly.  This very similar dates for S116 clades suggest that there was originally no huge cultural or linguistic divisions and that they developed later.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #185 on: May 11, 2010, 06:08:20 PM »

 This very similar dates for S116 clades suggest that there was originally no huge cultural or linguistic divisions and that they developed later.

I think that is right on the money.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #186 on: May 11, 2010, 08:02:03 PM »





I was quite surprised how rude he got, credence to you for not stooping to his level.


Thanks. It wasn't easy keeping my temper at times. Ironically he says he has now left that forum because of rudeness to him.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #187 on: May 11, 2010, 08:39:18 PM »

Okay, now that the origin of L21 is totally resolved, and all of the best of men (and women) won a well fought and noble battle (with hardly any acrimony), let's get on to the spread of L21 from the Continent, oui?

The gentic face of Ireland and the Isles was changed completely by the arrival of L21. Ireland is dominated by L21 in all four of its Historical Provinces. How did this come about? From what I read on the forums, the Beaker Folk are considered the best candidates for the spread of L21 from the Continent to the Isles, but can we say within a reasonable time frame when this happened and through which entry points in Ireland and the Isles. Did this L21 onslaught take place over centuries, or a thousand years or more? Armies? Traders? Families? Randy Frenchmen? Randy Germans?

Also, once in Ireland and the Isles, how did L21 dominate so thoroughly? Which other Haplogroups were in Ireland at the time, and why did the lose out to L21?

If you ask me (and nobody will), this L21 swamping of the Isles is the biggest gentic story of Western Europe, if not all of Europe. I believe it should be explored with full determination! I'd do it myself, but I'm an idiot.

Thanks,  Miles (Irish L21)
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #188 on: May 11, 2010, 09:06:12 PM »

I think L21 exploded before the Celto-Germanic split. That is why we see it in places like Scandinavia, Spain, and the Czech Republic (although this could also be attributed to Celts, i.e. Bohemia).

It must have entered Ireland early on, when it brought Q-Celtic to the island. Any L21 from Britain would have assimilated into the Q-Celtic majority (like the Vikings and Normans later). R would have overtaken other haplogroups such as I2-Isles and E1b1b - the latter two have been in Europe longer.

While those L21 in Ireland became Celtic, others fell into the Germanic sphere - the other Centum language.

That is my take on it, albeit not a professional one!

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Jdean
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« Reply #189 on: May 12, 2010, 04:16:54 AM »


The gentic face of Ireland and the Isles was changed completely by the arrival of L21. Ireland is dominated by L21 in all four of its Historical Provinces. How did this come about?


Presumably the dominants of L21 in Ireland is a good example of 'Founder Effect'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect

and 'Genetic Drift'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
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Jdean
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« Reply #190 on: May 12, 2010, 06:26:41 AM »





I was quite surprised how rude he got, credence to you for not stooping to his level.


Thanks. It wasn't easy keeping my temper at times. Ironically he says he has now left that forum because of rudeness to him.

Odd that an historian should have trouble remembering even recent history

Ho Hum
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eochaidh
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« Reply #191 on: May 12, 2010, 08:35:36 AM »


The gentic face of Ireland and the Isles was changed completely by the arrival of L21. Ireland is dominated by L21 in all four of its Historical Provinces. How did this come about?


Presumably the dominants of L21 in Ireland is a good example of 'Founder Effect'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect

and 'Genetic Drift'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift


I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it, especially the Genetic Drift part. Wouldn't Genetic Drift deal mostly with the mutation of alleles? I'm not sure how that pertains to the dominance of the L21 SNP.

As far as founder effect, I'm also lost. So, a small group of L21 comes into Ireland and possibly sticks together, maybe interbreeding, and that causes it to overwhelm the current genetic population?

Recently Ireland had many families from immigrate from Poland. So, let's say many of those Polish males were R1a, and their families stick together in newly formed Polish neighbourhoods... does this mean we should expect to see Ireland be overwhelmingly R1a down the road?

Maybe I'm not expressing myself properly. How did L21, a new genetic Y type, so overwhelm the present Y population of Ireland, completely and evenly, after it arrived? What happened to the older Y Haplogroups?

Thanks,  Miles
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Jdean
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« Reply #192 on: May 12, 2010, 09:58:51 AM »


I'm sorry, I'm just not getting it, especially the Genetic Drift part. Wouldn't Genetic Drift deal mostly with the mutation of alleles? I'm not sure how that pertains to the dominance of the L21 SNP.


In order for Founder Effect (which is a type of Genetic Drift) to be the reason for L21 being the overwhelming majority of haplogroups in Ireland, Ireland would have to have been relatively sparsely populated when the L21 carrying population arrived.

You probably have a much better idea on whether that is likely to have been true than myself, but the theory is that in a small population something that is less common tends to become even less common with each generation until it eventually disappears.

As it happens a similar thing occurs with surnames as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galton-Watson_process
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #193 on: May 12, 2010, 06:08:30 PM »

You could also ask why R1b1b2 in general became so dominant in western Europe, particularly the Atlantic zone.  I do not know why but it happened despite the origin of R1b1b2 now nailed down to the east of Europe and sw Asia.  It clearly happened and really reduced to a fraction the pre-r1b clades. If it happened in the bigger picture of all R1b1b2 then it's no big deal it happened with L21. The only difference with L21 is it did very well in northern France and this would have greatly raised the chances of small groups crossing to the isles having  a big L21 majority. 
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #194 on: May 12, 2010, 06:30:28 PM »

I would also note that there is a substantial I clade minority among the Irish with native Gaelic names in ulster and Leinster.  I think it was 25% or the like. I understand that most of this was ancient I clades of the type not The germanic associaed types. I tried to find out more but couldn't. Of course the difference between Irish levels of R1b and elsewhere is exagerated by only applying the weeding out the blowins approach in Ireland and not elsewhere. 
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rms2
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« Reply #195 on: May 12, 2010, 07:45:41 PM »

Okay, now that the origin of L21 is totally resolved, and all of the best of men (and women) won a well fought and noble battle (with hardly any acrimony), let's get on to the spread of L21 from the Continent, oui?

The gentic face of Ireland and the Isles was changed completely by the arrival of L21. Ireland is dominated by L21 in all four of its Historical Provinces. How did this come about? From what I read on the forums, the Beaker Folk are considered the best candidates for the spread of L21 from the Continent to the Isles, but can we say within a reasonable time frame when this happened and through which entry points in Ireland and the Isles. Did this L21 onslaught take place over centuries, or a thousand years or more? Armies? Traders? Families? Randy Frenchmen? Randy Germans?

Also, once in Ireland and the Isles, how did L21 dominate so thoroughly? Which other Haplogroups were in Ireland at the time, and why did the lose out to L21?

If you ask me (and nobody will), this L21 swamping of the Isles is the biggest gentic story of Western Europe, if not all of Europe. I believe it should be explored with full determination! I'd do it myself, but I'm an idiot.

Thanks,  Miles (Irish L21)

Despite the very obvious and unsubtle sarcasm of your post, you raise some good questions.

You seem to be implying that only a subclade that actually originated in the British Isles could have come to be so prevalent there, but does that really make any sense? If L21 did originate in, say, Ireland, how did it come to swamp its P312* antecedents? How is it there is so little P312* in Ireland and so little of the other, related P312+ subclades?

L21 probably arrived in the British Isles early, either during the Neolithic Period with the first farmers or during the Bronze Age, perhaps with the Beaker Folk. Either way, it would have enjoyed technological advantages that would have translated into reproductive advantages and several thousand years in which to employ them since its arrival. A recent study showed that men belonging to the R haplogroups actually have greater sperm motility than men in some other y haplogroups, like y haplogroup I. That means R haplogroup men tend to have more sons than men in other haplogroups. That is an obvious reproductive advantage when it comes to the survivability of y-dna.

Ireland, a country of about 5 million inhabitants, is an island. Reproductive advantages, genetic, technological and social, are amplified in such closed environments. The European Continent, on the other hand, is much larger than any of the British Isles and much more subject to the movements of various peoples. One shouldn't expect the Continent to be dominated by a single subclade the way an island can be so dominated.

The British Isles, and especially Ireland, are just a little too L21+, if you know what I mean. Surely L21 got there as already L21, and not as the twinkle in the eye of some P312* guy. Look for the old homestead where the kinfolk are, and L21's P312+ kin, not to mention all the other P310+ relatives, are mainly found on the European Continent.



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NealtheRed
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« Reply #196 on: May 12, 2010, 08:51:03 PM »

Okay, now that the origin of L21 is totally resolved, and all of the best of men (and women) won a well fought and noble battle (with hardly any acrimony), let's get on to the spread of L21 from the Continent, oui?

The gentic face of Ireland and the Isles was changed completely by the arrival of L21. Ireland is dominated by L21 in all four of its Historical Provinces. How did this come about? From what I read on the forums, the Beaker Folk are considered the best candidates for the spread of L21 from the Continent to the Isles, but can we say within a reasonable time frame when this happened and through which entry points in Ireland and the Isles. Did this L21 onslaught take place over centuries, or a thousand years or more? Armies? Traders? Families? Randy Frenchmen? Randy Germans?

Also, once in Ireland and the Isles, how did L21 dominate so thoroughly? Which other Haplogroups were in Ireland at the time, and why did the lose out to L21?

If you ask me (and nobody will), this L21 swamping of the Isles is the biggest gentic story of Western Europe, if not all of Europe. I believe it should be explored with full determination! I'd do it myself, but I'm an idiot.

Thanks,  Miles (Irish L21)

Despite the very obvious and unsubtle sarcasm of your post, you raise some good questions.

You seem to be implying that only a subclade that actually originated in the British Isles could have come to be so prevalent there, but does that really make any sense? If L21 did originate in, say, Ireland, how did it come to swamp its P312* antecedents? How is it there is so little P312* in Ireland and so little of the other, related P312+ subclades?

L21 probably arrived in the British Isles early, either during the Neolithic Period with the first farmers or during the Bronze Age, perhaps with the Beaker Folk. Either way, it would have enjoyed technological advantages that would have translated into reproductive advantages and several thousand years in which to employ them since its arrival. A recent study showed that men belonging to the R haplogroups actually have greater sperm motility than men in some other y haplogroups, like y haplogroup I. That means R haplogroup men tend to have more sons than men in other haplogroups. That is an obvious reproductive advantage when it comes to the survivability of y-dna.

Ireland, a country of about 5 million inhabitants, is an island. Reproductive advantages, genetic, technological and social, are amplified in such closed environments. The European Continent, on the other hand, is much larger than any of the British Isles and much more subject to the movements of various peoples. One shouldn't expect the Continent to be dominated by a single subclade the way an island can be so dominated.

The British Isles, and especially Ireland, are just a little too L21+, if you know what I mean. Surely L21 got there as already L21, and not as the twinkle in the eye of some P312* guy. Look for the old homestead where the kinfolk are, and L21's P312+ kin, not to mention all the other P310+ relatives, are mainly found on the European Continent.





I read about Haplogroup R and how there is a higher chance of having sons, apparently. My Dad is one of three sons and one daughter. My grandfather had another brother too. So at least two generations back there are more sons than daughters.

Maybe an elite tribe (full of L21) entered Ireland and Great Britain early, like you said Rich. Since both islands were populated previously, this means that R-L21 outcompeted in providing the bulk of the male population. It is very interesting... did something environmental or social give R an edge? Or biological?
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eochaidh
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« Reply #197 on: May 12, 2010, 09:17:58 PM »

Okay, now that the origin of L21 is totally resolved, and all of the best of men (and women) won a well fought and noble battle (with hardly any acrimony), let's get on to the spread of L21 from the Continent, oui?

The gentic face of Ireland and the Isles was changed completely by the arrival of L21. Ireland is dominated by L21 in all four of its Historical Provinces. How did this come about? From what I read on the forums, the Beaker Folk are considered the best candidates for the spread of L21 from the Continent to the Isles, but can we say within a reasonable time frame when this happened and through which entry points in Ireland and the Isles. Did this L21 onslaught take place over centuries, or a thousand years or more? Armies? Traders? Families? Randy Frenchmen? Randy Germans?

Also, once in Ireland and the Isles, how did L21 dominate so thoroughly? Which other Haplogroups were in Ireland at the time, and why did the lose out to L21?

If you ask me (and nobody will), this L21 swamping of the Isles is the biggest gentic story of Western Europe, if not all of Europe. I believe it should be explored with full determination! I'd do it myself, but I'm an idiot.

Thanks,  Miles (Irish L21)

Despite the very obvious and unsubtle sarcasm of your post, you raise some good questions.

You seem to be implying that only a subclade that actually originated in the British Isles could have come to be so prevalent there, but does that really make any sense? If L21 did originate in, say, Ireland, how did it come to swamp its P312* antecedents? How is it there is so little P312* in Ireland and so little of the other, related P312+ subclades?

L21 probably arrived in the British Isles early, either during the Neolithic Period with the first farmers or during the Bronze Age, perhaps with the Beaker Folk. Either way, it would have enjoyed technological advantages that would have translated into reproductive advantages and several thousand years in which to employ them since its arrival. A recent study showed that men belonging to the R haplogroups actually have greater sperm motility than men in some other y haplogroups, like y haplogroup I. That means R haplogroup men tend to have more sons than men in other haplogroups. That is an obvious reproductive advantage when it comes to the survivability of y-dna.

Ireland, a country of about 5 million inhabitants, is an island. Reproductive advantages, genetic, technological and social, are amplified in such closed environments. The European Continent, on the other hand, is much larger than any of the British Isles and much more subject to the movements of various peoples. One shouldn't expect the Continent to be dominated by a single subclade the way an island can be so dominated.

The British Isles, and especially Ireland, are just a little too L21+, if you know what I mean. Surely L21 got there as already L21, and not as the twinkle in the eye of some P312* guy. Look for the old homestead where the kinfolk are, and L21's P312+ kin, not to mention all the other P310+ relatives, are mainly found on the European Continent.




Rich,

I could put on a three act play about L21 originating on the Continent for you, and you would still accuse me of saying L21 originated in Ireland. There is nothing I can do about that.

That L21 has so completely overtaken Ireland is an amazing thing. One can ask how can't they?

Hey, my line is L21, I'm not complaining... but wow, how the hell did we do it?!

Just for the record, I believe that the Bell Beaker Folk brought L21 to Ireland, and most probably the Q Celtic language that became Irish Gaelic. Do I need to sign anything?

Miles
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« Reply #198 on: May 12, 2010, 09:27:13 PM »

And, of course I ask some good questions! I'm not entirely dim!

As I have said, this L21 take over of Ireland is one hell of a genetic story! I think it's worth looking in to. And, I happen to be part of this story!
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« Reply #199 on: May 12, 2010, 09:32:00 PM »

I'm not saying your question is empty, Miles, but I don't think it is that surprising that L21 came to become the most successful haplogroup on an ISLAND.

And think of this: not even all of the L21 in Ireland is of Celtic origin either...some came later too.
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