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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2009, 11:37:22 PM »

... Doesn't the fact that all M269 subclades have such similar STR markers indicate that not only are they not very old, but that they arose in fairly rapid succession?

Here are a couple other folks who agree with you from the same Ht35 topic thread this March.  This is the story of all of R1b1b2, not just the upstream parts. 

Reality said:
Quote
Fast growth = short GD between nodes = inability to see one "clade" from another.

Vince V responded:
Quote
So true.
Within the four paragroups of the R-ht35 project, it is not at all uncommon for participants to be a GD of 15 or 20 from the modal for that paragroup. The distance BETWEEN paragroup modals is only half that on average No wonder the phylogenetic inferences were so hard to make before the SNPs were discovered.

R1b1b2's family tree is a short, thick bush.  That takes explosive growth.
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« Reply #101 on: December 20, 2009, 12:52:17 AM »

You may ask why I would discuss upstream SNP's from L21 in a discussion about L21's origin?  There are two reasons:
1) These upstream SNP's happened within a relatively short number of generations
2) If you want to find someone's origin, you might check out where there father and their brothers live.  I'm in Texas. I have a brother in Minnesota.  My other brother and two sisters and parents live in Nebraska... Where am I probably from?  The bigger the family the better this works.

For the Ht35 discussion below
A1 - M269+ L23- (same as ISOGG R1b1b2*)
A2 - L23+ L51- (R1b1b2a*)
A3 - L51+ L11- (R1b1b2a1*)
A4 - L11+ P312- U106- (R1b1b2a1a*)

On April 11 Vince V said:
Quote
One thing that is interesting is that the modal haplotype for A2 is just one step from the modal haplotype for A4 at 12 markers. The A4 modal is the same as WAMH, of course.

WAMH did not start with P312, but with L11+/P310+/P311 or before. In April Vince created this chart.  The red to blue proportion is the A2 to A3/A4 ratio. The redder the red, the higher the amount L23+ that is L51-.
http://www.4shared.com/file/176942544/b7c77405/R-M269_L23_L51-_to_L51_Map_by_.html

For reference, here is a map of Europe where you can see the hotspot of is just west of the northern edge of the Carpathian Mountains (which form a backwards "c") in Slovakia, the Czech Republic and southern Poland.
http://www.4shared.com/file/176941816/3ed3ddd1/European_Terrain_Map_by_Euratl.html
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rms2
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« Reply #102 on: December 20, 2009, 04:32:59 PM »

What Vince Vizachero's hard work does is establish an apparent R1b1b2 SNP trail, an R1b1b2 vector, so to speak.

The arrow points from east to west (or SE to NW) and not the other way around.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 04:33:22 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #103 on: December 20, 2009, 06:59:39 PM »

What Vince Vizachero's hard work does is establish an apparent R1b1b2 SNP trail, an R1b1b2 vector, so to speak.

The arrow points from east to west (or SE to NW) and not the other way around.
Yes, there is an east to west expansion and a quick one at that.

Vince V per Ht35 project on May 13:
Quote
Anyway, the majority of our members fall into the first two groups:

A1 = 11 members (16%)
A2 = 32 members (46%)
A3 = 10 members (14%)
A4 = 17 members (24%)

Despite our growth, we don't yet have enough folks with both known geographic origins and full SNP results to get as much granularity as I'd like. But let's look at things two ways.

First, let's take the subset of the 70 SNP-tested members who have provided some information about their paternal origin: they have specified a country in their FTDNA account and/or they are members of the Jewish R1b project. This amounts to 59 people who both have some ancestry information and who are SNP-tested.

I split these 59 people into three groups:

"Jewish" members (n= 11) are simply those who are members of the Jewish R1b Project.

"NW Europe" members (n=22) are those whose "Country of Origin" is England, Germany, Ireland, Lithuania, Netherlands, Poland, Russian Federation, Scotland, Switzerland, or United Kingdom.

"SE Europe/SW Asia" members (n=26) are those whose "Country of Origin" is Algeria, Armenia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary, India, Iran, Italy, Kazakhstan, Lebanon, Turkey, Ukraine, or United Arab Emirates.

I want to look at the Jewish group separately for a minute. All of these fall into the most basal paragroups: A1 and A2. That is, so far 100% of our Jewish members are L51-.

Turning now to the other 48 members, these 48 are divided among the four categories mentioned above (A1, A2, A3, and A4). The geographical division within these four categories is striking.

A1 (n=5) is 100% "SE Europe/SW Asia" and 0% "NW Europe"
A2 (n=26) is 65% "SE Europe/SW Asia" and 35% "NW Europe"
A3 (n=4) is 50% "SE Europe/SW Asia" and 50% "NW Europe"
A4 (n=13) is 15% "SE Europe/SW Asia" and 85% "NW Europe"

Put another way, 85% of members from "SE Europe/SW Asia" are in A1 or A2 (that is, are L51-) while only 41% of "NW Europe" members fit that description. Remember from above that 100% of our "Jewish" members are L51-..
« Last Edit: December 20, 2009, 07:04:06 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #104 on: December 21, 2009, 06:05:01 PM »

I agree with Mike that the L21 story is inseperable from the overall R1b1b2 story.  The very similar variance calculated MRCA dates and STRs make that clear.  That work by Vince V just shows what can be achieved when some modest funds are made available for research and also shows we already have the tools (SNPs) to pretty well fully reveal the geography and relative (but not calendar) chronology of the R1b story if the funds to deep clade test a large Eurasian sample were available.  We have a chain of R1b SNPs that probably cover the period from the Neolithic to the 1000AD but we only know a fraction of what we already could if we used them to test in a large scientific study sample.  I think it is clear that it is lack of use of the SNPs we have more than the need for further breakthroughs that is hindering our knowledge. 

Even further work on the upstream part of R1b that Vince worked on to refine the distribution maps of them in Europe and SW Asia could produce a map that shows the route in more detail.  Most important is whether it went by the Danubian or Mediteranian route (or both).  If we knew that, that would considerably narrow down the options of archaeological cultural matches.  Somehow eventually S116 clades ended up in both Mediteranian and central/NW Europe but one or other of these is perhaps likely to be on the primary route with the other area down to later settlement.  It would be great ot know which. 
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« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2009, 07:27:25 PM »

... 4) The networked P312 tribes conspire long distance to organize a military uprising and overthrow the pre-inhabitant populations.  This would almost Trojan horse-like.  Spread out, infiltrate and then attack.  I will say the Greeks seems to have done this with the Minoans.
....
I still think it is simpler just to view it as that P312 rolled into Europe and spread very aggressively, essentially as a large movement.  No, it was not a single event, but an era (kind of like the Anglo-Saxon Invasion period) of aggressive expansion and migration.  There were undoubtedly different waves to the expansion, but they had some kind of advantage.  I would think it would be a shared advantage among P312 peoples.  Since the mtDNA doesn't appear to have flowed the same way, I don't think the major part of the advantage was just disease resistance or lactase persistence....  
... I have long contended that the idea of hostile military invasions has been out of fashion with historians and archaeologists ever since WWII, but I do think it's foolish to ignore this possibility in trying to work out how how R1b became so dominant in Europe in such a short period.
Perhaps we should view the Chacolithic and Early Bronze Ages as "IE Exporatory Period" or the "Beaker Exploration Era."  A time of exploration and trading/shipping to remote areas.  Sound familiar?  Does anyone think IE speaker explorations only started with Columbus?  Perhaps exploration was even more prevalent back in prehistory.  A people searching for tin or other metals, whereas the focus eventually became "gold rushes" in later eras ... black gold in the modern era.

Then would the "IE Invasion and War Era" be the late Bronze Age?  A homeland overfilling with peoples, in-fighting, greed and what have you; leading to a great outflow and immigration to the west, north and southwest.  What do you think?  Would the Urnfield culture of 1300-750 BC have been the greatest migration period? an aggressive one?
http://www.4shared.com/file/178330174/726ec3ba/Urnfield_Expansion_by_Wikipedi.html
Wikipedia from other sources:
Quote
The numerous hoards of the Urnfield culture and the existence of fortified settlements (hill forts) were taken as evidence for widespread warfare and upheaval by some scholars. Written sources describe several collapses and upheavals in the Eastern Mediterranean, Anatolia and the Levant around the time of the Urnfield origins:
    * end of the Mycenean culture with a conventional date of ca. 1200 BC
    * destruction of Troy VI ca. 1200 BC
    * Battles of Ramses III against the Sea Peoples, 1195-1190 BC
    * end of the Hittite empire 1180 BC
    * settlement of the Philistines in Palestine ca. 1170 BC

Some scholars, among them Wolfgang Kimmig and P. Bosch-Gimpera have postulated a Europe-wide wave of migrations. The so-called Dorian invasion of Greece was placed in this context as well (although more recent evidence suggests that the Dorians moved in 1100 BC into a post Mycenaean vacuum, rather than precipitating the collapse). Better methods of dating have shown that these events are not as closely connected as once thought.

More recently Robert Drews, after having reviewed and dismissed the migration hypothesis, has suggested that the observed cultural associations may be in fact partly explained as the result of a new kind of warfare based upon the slashing Niue sword,[1] and with bands of infantry replacing chariots in warfare. Drews suggests that the political instability that this brought to centralised states based upon maryannu chariotry caused the breakdown of these polities.

I'm just throwing this out there as a possibility.  I'm hoping there is some evidence that either supports or dispels it.
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« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2009, 07:34:24 PM »

.. Then would the "IE Invasion and War Era" be the late Bronze Age?  A homeland overfilling with peoples, in-fighting, greed and what have you; leading to a great outflow and immigration to the west, north and southwest.  What do you think?  Would the Urnfield culture of 1300-750 BC have been the greatest migration period? an aggressive one?
http://www.4shared.com/file/178330174/726ec3ba/Urnfield_Expansion_by_Wikipedi.html

Almost forgot, the idea I described was inspired by Maciamo on another forum:
Quote
The Beaker Culture was indeed quite different from the Megalithic culture, but also had little to do with the Indo-European Tumulus and subsequent cultures.

The Beaker Culture existed in parallel to the Megalithic culture. It did not replace it. It was more like a wave of new cultural artefacts (introduced by neighbours, such as the R1a Corded-Ware people, or a small group of new immigrants, maybe the G2a people) being traded between various sites belonging to the Megalithic culture.

But I admit that I do not know enough about the Bell Beaker cultures to make a decisive judgement here. The R1b Proto-Celts may have arrived to Western Europe during the Beaker period. If they did, why didn't we find horses, tumulus, bronze swords and other elements typically linked with the Indo-Europeans ? Why did the Megalithic culture came to a sudden end only around 1200 BCE, when the Urnfield culture started to expand from Germany ?

The Beaker people might have been a small "avant-guard" of Indo-Europeans (R1b or R1a or both), who just traded with the Megalith people, and might have settled in small number among them (without significantly changing the Western European gene pool). But it was not yet the brutal (Proto-)Celtic invasion that would annihilate the older Atlantic culture.....
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« Reply #107 on: December 22, 2009, 05:08:09 AM »


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But it was not yet the brutal (Proto-)Celtic invasion that would annihilate the older Atlantic culture.....
When was that? I never knew of that invasion
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« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2009, 09:18:25 AM »

I think the words "brutal invasion" imply a relatively swift and sudden, fairly unified event of rapine and conquest. While such things did occur here and there in W. Europe, clearly there was no single, massive Celtic invasion that wiped out whatever is meant by the "Atlantic culture".

On the other hand, since R1b1b2 isn't all that old there, some degree and kind of y-dna replacement must have occurred in W. Europe over time.
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« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2009, 11:13:32 AM »

I think the words "brutal invasion" imply a relatively swift and sudden, fairly unified event of rapine and conquest. While such things did occur here and there in W. Europe, clearly there was no single, massive Celtic invasion that wiped out whatever is meant by the "Atlantic culture".

On the other hand, since R1b1b2 isn't all that old there, some degree and kind of y-dna replacement must have occurred in W. Europe over time.
In the age of non-motorized vehicles I don't think anything could be swift by our standards.  It's all relative.  The spread of R1b1b2 was relatively swift given the large area it expanded through and its age (assuming we really do have an idea of what that is.)  

Old Farmer Europeans, the Indo-Europeans and Mesolithic-Hunter/Gatherers were all Homo sapien sapiens. They reproduced at roughly equivalent rates with inherited natural life spans. They also integrated so autosomal genes did had some chance to pass between peoples.

Those are Maciamo's words as far as a "brutal invasion."  However, it is hard to see why it wouldn't be possible, if not probable, that violent means weren't associated with the spread of Y-DNA.  This is anectdoctal, but the descendant peoples of the Indo-Europeans could be brutal, as I suspect many peoples were.  One only needs to read the old Irish legends, or of Druidism, or for that matter Roman army history or Bede's account of the Anglo-Saxon invasions, or of accounts of the Vikings, etc., etc.

I agree that this was probably an era rather than a single single sustained military set of battles.  Unless R1b1b2 was already present in Europe during Neolithic expansions, the Indo-European invasion era was probably not unlike the Anglo-Saxon invasion era.  My guess, however, is that the IE replacement of the male population was actually a bit more comprehensive.
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« Reply #110 on: December 22, 2009, 11:25:28 AM »

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But it was not yet the brutal (Proto-)Celtic invasion that would annihilate the older Atlantic culture.....
When was that? I never knew of that invasion
Pre-history isn't written so no one was there to document or characterize what an invasion was.

However, how do you think the Neanderthals felt when some taller, albeit weaker, Cro-Magnon men showed up with the better weapons and tools?

I can't imagine the amazement and undoubtedly some horror, when stone tool farmers saw physically bigger, horse-riding men with metal tools and a warrior culture show up in the valley.

Perhaps Alan R or Jean M can comment on the archaeological evidence.  I believe there was evidence of violence an cultural discontinuity when the Yamanaya culture moved into Europe into the Dnieper and Danube valley's. Also at around 1200 BC, there are theories that advanced cultures died out because of violence from people from the north, etc.  Some associate this with the Urnfield Culture.
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« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2009, 02:45:02 PM »

Ok, my statement was misleading, I will clarify  it.
My surprise was at he link between Urnfield and Protoceltic and the collapse of Atlantic Bronze
1) Urnfield doesn´t match historical celtic territory very well
2) Atlantic Bronze culture thrived in that period and survived longer than Urnfield

The best case for a Protoceltic invasion is, no doubt, Hallstatt, and in particular Ha C.
We have in that period (750-600 BC)
1) Discontinuity with many Urnfield settlements (a powerful indication of migrations)
2) Collapse of Atlantic Bronze culture replaced by Ha C
3) A change from a mixed economy towards a pastoralist economy, helped by a climatic change towards a colder and wetter period
4) The development of a new warring elite that fights on horse with iron weapons (diffusion of iron technique through Western Europe)
Finally, there is a much closer match with Historical Celts, including those of the Western Atlantic coast.
The only problem is that there is little evidence of mass destructions, just a shift of settlements, now placed on defensive locations. Still, it is the best match for that protoceltic invasion.
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« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2009, 05:44:43 PM »

No point me pretending I have the answers but my own feeling is that the main spreading of Celtic, proto-Celtic, Italo-Celtic or even just a western form of Indo-European was an earlier thing.  The idea of urnfield and Hallstatt and La Tene being the main periods of the spread of Celtic into the west is much less popular now and for good reason.  I also hugely doubt they were the main sources of the spread of R1b1b2.  I think both the spread of S116 clades and Celtic are probably connected is some way.  In many ways I like the idea of an early Neolithic origin but the problem is that areas of high S116 are common on both sides of the Cardial-Linearbandkeramik divide and in areas which saw neither of them.  In purely distributional terms I think the beaker culture probably forms the best single correlation with R1b1b2 but the idea that that phase would be repsonsible for the founding of so much of Europes y-lines is something that does not exactly scream out at you in the remains.  Problem is the beaker culture is currently thought to be of Iberian origin, which is not very helpful when the phylogeny of R1b indicates a SE to west movement.  Jean has suggested some possibly links that could connect Iberia via Italy back to the east but personally I do not feel there is enough to convince, certainly nothing like a chain of related cultures leading from the east to Iberia that were ancestral to beakers. I still do not feel that beaker dating is certain and that an eastern origin is ruled out - perhaps a route from the SE to Italy and then Med. France/Iberia.  That would make a whole lot more sense to me.
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« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2009, 06:00:29 PM »

I agree that Celtic is much older than Halstatt. Some of the older scholars like Hubert attributed the spread of early Celtic to the Beaker Folk. I am no archaeologist, but that makes sense to me.
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« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2009, 07:52:02 PM »

... I still do not feel that beaker dating is certain and that an eastern origin is ruled out - perhaps a route from the SE to Italy and then Med. France/Iberia.  That would make a whole lot more sense to me.
Keep in mind that Vince V's SE Europe/SW Asia to NW/West Europe direction of movement for the P312/L21 predecessors includes Italy as in the SE Europe/SW Asia category.
There have been some on this forum who are quite focal that Italy is the origin point for the R1b1b2 clades that moved into Western Europe.

I keep looking for a big movement other than the LBK and Impressed Ware Neolithic movements.  No one seems to excited about anything else being being big enough, but the timing of the Neolithic waves just seems a little too early and it doesn't seem like that would have created enough Y-DNA vs mtDNA difference (the Mesolithic populations just weren't that big.)

Perhaps, the R1b1b2 expansion was a series of movements... from Beaker thru Urnfield, Hallstat and La Tene.   Whatever the case, it was continuous and high rate of population expansion.
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« Reply #115 on: December 23, 2009, 04:26:36 AM »

In my opinion the problem is trying to add everything, DNA, culture, languages, in a single package
I think there is a good case for the link between Hallstatt and Celtic languages. In Iberia Urnfield arrived to Catalonia c.1000 BC, but there is no trace of Celtic languages there in historical time. Instead, Hallastatt in Iberia match perfectly with Celtic speaking populations of Central and Western Iberia.
That doesn´t mean Celtic languages being born with Hallstatt, they could be earlier but being limited to Central Europe until Hallstatt expansion brought it to Western Europe.
As for R1b, I agree that the best match for the present distribution is Bell Beaker. I don´t see a problem with an Iberian origin for Bell Beaker culture, it could have been defined as a culture in the Zambujal complex, but being taken and redeifined by different people moving from Central Europe.
So, we would have different unrelated events, DNA expansion and language expansion. It is a lot more likely an early population expansion, when Western Europe was sparsely peopled, than at a later period.
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« Reply #116 on: December 23, 2009, 10:51:07 AM »

....That doesn´t mean Celtic languages being born with Hallstatt, they could be earlier but being limited to Central Europe until Hallstatt expansion brought it to Western Europe.
I think it is helpful to think of languages as derived, not born.  The Celtic languages were derived from or evolved out of an Indo-European language base.
Quote from: IALEM
.... So, we would have different unrelated events, DNA expansion and language expansion....
Jeam M has some good thinking on this topic.  I would argue that we should consider DNA and language (along with complete cultural packages) as being carried by people.  Yes, people can convert or integrate into a new cultural package, but the pull has to be great.  A pull is more likely to be great if there are alot of people (or at least a dominant people) with the target cultural package and language.  This thinking takes you get back to "new" people.  Probably, large and swift cultural changes have new people driving them.   What's a large and swift cultural change in the timeframes we are talking about for R-M269, R-P312, P-U152, R-L21, etc.?  I don't know, but apparently the R-M269 grew and spread quickly.  New cultures can just provide clues as to when and how.
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« Reply #117 on: December 23, 2009, 11:14:35 AM »

....That doesn´t mean Celtic languages being born with Hallstatt, they could be earlier but being limited to Central Europe until Hallstatt expansion brought it to Western Europe.
I think it is helpful to think of languages as derived, not born.  The Celtic languages were derived from or evolved out of an Indo-European language base.
Quote from: IALEM
.... So, we would have different unrelated events, DNA expansion and language expansion....
Jeam M has some good thinking on this topic.  I would argue that we should consider DNA and language (along with complete cultural packages) as being carried by people.  Yes, people can convert or integrate into a new cultural package, but the pull has to be great.  A pull is more likely to be great if there are alot of people (or at least a dominant people) with the target cultural package and language.  This thinking takes you get back to "new" people.  Probably, large and swift cultural changes have new people driving them.   What's a large and swift cultural change in the timeframes we are talking about for R-M269, R-P312, P-U152, R-L21, etc.?  I don't know, but apparently the R-M269 grew and spread quickly.  New cultures can just provide clues as to when and how.
Ok, I will redefine my concepts
1) according to the standard Kurgan theory for PIE language, ProtoCeltic split from PIE around 1500 BC, and Celtic languages started to develop from ProtoCeltic around 800 BC, that chronology fits Hallstatt as well.

2) I do think people stress too much the language-DNA link. I agree with you that R1b could have arrived in different waves, and some of them could easily not being IE speakers.
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« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2009, 12:22:22 PM »

I will put forward a working hypothesis for discussion
1) (3000 BC) Zambujal complex develops in SW Iberia, built by colonists from the Eastern Mediterranean (urban culture, metal technique, material culture links). They would be mainly YDNA J2 (The region has the largest percentage of J2 Hg in Iberia according to Adams et alii (2008), up to 15%)
2) (2700 BC) Bell Beaker package expands from Zambujal.
3)  (2400-2000 BC) Bell Beaker reflux, from Central Europe R1b people adopt copper technology, coupled with important socioeconomic changes, a pastoralist society (Lactase persistency advantage?) with a warrior code (individual graves with copper weapons and bows). That people quickly expands and push aside neolithic people (probably J2, maybe others Hgs as well). Those Bell Beaker speak non IE languages mostly, some maybe would speak PIE but they would be confined to Central Europe.
4) (1500-1100 BC) ProtoCeltic evolves in Central Europe from PIE. Some ProtoCeltic could move into the Rhin and South England with Urnfield (although the Southern Branch of Urnfield would still be non IE.
5) (750-600 BC)Hallstatt C expands from Central Europe, bringing Celtic languages to Western France and Iberia.
4 and 5 would include further R1B people moving to Western Europe.
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« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2009, 12:28:48 PM »

I think Celtic is much older than Halstatt and arrived in the British Isles and elsewhere with Beaker Folk from the Rhineland. I need to find some references to support this, but I think Halstatt is too late for the spread of Celtic.
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« Reply #120 on: December 23, 2009, 01:21:09 PM »

I think Celtic is much older than Halstatt and arrived in the British Isles and elsewhere with Beaker Folk from the Rhineland. I need to find some references to support this, but I think Halstatt is too late for the spread of Celtic.
Bell Beaker arrived to the British isles around 2400 BC, that is too early even for ProtoCeltic, at least under the standard chronology for PIE, it woud be people still speaking late PIE, so they should have developed their own family of IE language, not a Celtic language.
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« Reply #121 on: December 23, 2009, 07:50:40 PM »

I think Celtic is much older than Halstatt and arrived in the British Isles and elsewhere with Beaker Folk from the Rhineland. I need to find some references to support this, but I think Halstatt is too late for the spread of Celtic.
Bell Beaker arrived to the British isles around 2400 BC, that is too early even for ProtoCeltic, at least under the standard chronology for PIE, it woud be people still speaking late PIE, so they should have developed their own family of IE language, not a Celtic language.

I think you know as well as I do those dates have huge confidence intervals and are the subject of a great deal of controversy. Halstatt and La Tene spread into areas that were ready to receive their influence because they were already speaking Celtic.
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IALEM
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« Reply #122 on: December 24, 2009, 04:07:18 AM »


That is posible, but if Bell Beakers were already speaking Celtic, why is there a large area of Bell Beaker settlement that ddidn´t speak a Celtic language in historical period? I mean the whole Mediterranean coast of Iberia and Aquitania, unless, of course, some of the Bell Beakers spoke celtic while others didn´t.
Unfortunately we will never know for sure as the language of the Bell Beaker people was never written.


« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 04:08:44 AM by IALEM » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #123 on: December 24, 2009, 11:23:32 AM »


That is posible, but if Bell Beakers were already speaking Celtic, why is there a large area of Bell Beaker settlement that ddidn´t speak a Celtic language in historical period? I mean the whole Mediterranean coast of Iberia and Aquitania, unless, of course, some of the Bell Beakers spoke celtic while others didn´t.
Unfortunately we will never know for sure as the language of the Bell Beaker people was never written.

True. Perhaps the original Beaker Folk did not speak Celtic but those who went to the British Isles did.

I don't know. Off the language thing for a moment, however, things will get really interesting if the science ever advances to the point where reliable y-dna results can be obtained from ancient and even prehistoric remains.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #124 on: December 24, 2009, 05:17:11 PM »


That is posible, but if Bell Beakers were already speaking Celtic, why is there a large area of Bell Beaker settlement that ddidn´t speak a Celtic language in historical period? I mean the whole Mediterranean coast of Iberia and Aquitania, unless, of course, some of the Bell Beakers spoke celtic while others didn´t.
Unfortunately we will never know for sure as the language of the Bell Beaker people was never written.

True. Perhaps the original Beaker Folk did not speak Celtic but those who went to the British Isles did.

I don't know. Off the language thing for a moment, however, things will get really interesting if the science ever advances to the point where reliable y-dna results can be obtained from ancient and even prehistoric remains.
Yes, but unless they eventually are able to test ancient SNPs, we will be left speculating over what subclades R1b samples belong to.
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