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Author Topic: R-L21* in France  (Read 42173 times)
rms2
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« Reply #525 on: July 17, 2012, 06:08:35 AM »

What do you think of this guy as a potential L21? or possibly Z253?

192377 3R3SK Andre Marceau (Mercereau), b. France

He has 511=11 557=17 which is common with one type of Z253 people, but
does not match on DYS464 even though he has had a down mutation there. His GDs are up to the 18 and more range with Z253+ folks but there are no better fits for clusters for him (that I see) and if he really happened to be from a point of
origin then we'd expect wide GDs.

I don't see GDs with other L21 people up into the mid to high 40's at 67 which generally means there is a good chance he is L21+, at the least.


Sounds good to me. He has no close matches at 37 or 67 markers.

I sent the lady in charge of the entry an email via Ysearch offering her an L21 test for that entry.
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rms2
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« Reply #526 on: August 12, 2012, 02:21:08 PM »

There's a new French R-L21 today: Gadiou, ancestral surname Marché, kit 226146, Ysearch QMXMQ, from Deux-Sèvres, Poitou-Charentes (west of Poitiers).

His closest match at 67 markers (9 away) is a French-Canadian, Genest.

He is currently in the "Test Results Pending" category because, even though he already has an L21+ result, not all of his Deep Clade stuff is in yet.

If he doesn't come up positive for one of the Deep Clade-tested subclades, I'll offer him a DF13 test.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 02:21:53 PM by rms2 » Logged

brunetmj
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« Reply #527 on: August 14, 2012, 03:19:04 PM »

Another plain  Continental DF13+ confirmed

I just completed my last series of SNP testing which confirms I have no down stream SNP’s after DF13+

Negative for L513- DF49- Z253- Z255- L96- L144-L371-L555- DF41- DF21-
I guess now it’s a matter of waiting for more Y walk through or perhaps the new national geographic tests to show more undiscovered SNP’s

Family was from Dieppe France.
Kit number 198135

P312+ L21+ DF13+ Z255- Z253- U152- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L555- L513- L371- L226- L193- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L144- DF49- DF41- DF23- DF21-
 
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L21 DF13** French
rms2
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« Reply #528 on: August 14, 2012, 08:24:44 PM »

You're not alone. There is at least one other man of French ancestry in that category.

Category "Ca. DF13* (L21>DF13; Negative for the known DF13+ subclades)" is a little cluttered with some multiple entries with the same surnames, but it has some continental members, as well some from the British Isles.

I guess some new SNPs are going to be needed to sort things out.
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avalon
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« Reply #529 on: August 16, 2012, 06:38:15 AM »

I wonder what element of L21 in Brittany can be attributed to migrating Britons in the 5th and 6th centuries?

I'm no expert on the region but it must have been significant to have established the Breton language.
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rms2
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« Reply #530 on: August 16, 2012, 11:23:51 AM »

I think it might be difficult to figure that out, since the regions are so close to one another and genetic affinity between them probably goes back a lot further in time than the immediate post-Roman period.

In both the R-L21 Plus Project and the Bretagne Project (I administer the first and co-admin the second) the L21+ members with ancestry in Bretagne do not have close matches in SW Britain (or anywhere else in Britain), despite the fact that Britain is well represented in the current y-dna database.

If one dates the main settlement of Britons in Armorica to the 5th century, then we should expect some 67-marker distances in a range of up to about 11 (notice I said about). This is using a rough rule of thumb of about 1 unit of gd per 150 years (I realize this is a matter of some controversy). As I said, that is a rough rule of thumb, as it does not take into account specific cases and the differences in mutation rates per str marker, etc.

I haven't really seen those sorts of matches between our Bretons and those with more recent British ancestry, but I will do some checking again when I get the chance (maybe this evening).
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 11:25:20 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #531 on: August 16, 2012, 01:09:13 PM »

I think it might be difficult to figure that out, since the regions are so close to one another and genetic affinity between them probably goes back a lot further in time than the immediate post-Roman period.

In both the R-L21 Plus Project and the Bretagne Project (I administer the first and co-admin the second) the L21+ members with ancestry in Bretagne do not have close matches in SW Britain (or anywhere else in Britain), despite the fact that Britain is well represented in the current y-dna database.

If one dates the main settlement of Britons in Armorica to the 5th century, then we should expect some 67-marker distances in a range of up to about 11 (notice I said about). This is using a rough rule of thumb of about 1 unit of gd per 150 years (I realize this is a matter of some controversy). As I said, that is a rough rule of thumb, as it does not take into account specific cases and the differences in mutation rates per str marker, etc.

I haven't really seen those sorts of matches between our Bretons and those with more recent British ancestry, but I will do some checking again when I get the chance (maybe this evening).
That's what I'm seeing. Most of the French L21 don't cluster well with Isles folks. I think Brittany and Normandy had more input into Britain than the other way around as far as R-L21 goes. That's speculation, I admit.
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OConnor
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« Reply #532 on: August 16, 2012, 02:03:52 PM »

Could crop failure on a large scale affect y-dna diversity? like bottle-necks? Perhaps the elite would have had control of food storages, forcing others to go without. Could some ethnic groups have faired better in such times, better than the general population?
 http://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/londons-volcanic-winter.htm

Again in such times as the Black Death..could this have altered genetic diversity, and similarities between such places as England and France?
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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Castlebob
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« Reply #533 on: August 16, 2012, 02:25:22 PM »

I know the 1349 plague hit the Scottish border region very badly. It led to a vacuum which, due to a variety of reasons, saw Cumbrians encouraged to fill the Scottish void. There were a number of plagues & famines during that period, so guess that fit, able-bodied workers who could tend the urgently-needed crops, would be more highly valued than previously.
I would think that a robust farm worker might suddenly be viewed as a better catch for the off-spring of a landed gent, particularly if he/she could keep his land maintained properly & thereby generate wealth for him. I think Michael Wood suggested as much in his recent BBC TV series.
Cheers,
Bob
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b P312+ Z245- Z2247- Z2245- Z196-  U152-  U106-  P66-  M65-  M37-  M222-  M153-  L459-  L21-  L176.2-  DF27-  DF19- L624+ (S389+)
mtDNA: U5b2b3
OConnor
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« Reply #534 on: August 16, 2012, 07:03:52 PM »

perhaps events like those didn't alter any genetic similarities between countries, like France and England.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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brunetmj
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« Reply #535 on: August 16, 2012, 10:41:51 PM »

In the 1670s, Giovanni Cassini , the discoverer of the moons of Saturn, began work on a project to create a topographic map of France. The interior of France was largely unknown. Several of his work parties were killed by locals believing they were practicing witchcraft.  Once you left Paris people spoke different dialects of a language that would only later in time would be recognized as French .
One village was likely not to  understand the language of a neighboring village. Living in the interior were people who were of unknown origins and customs. Celtic customs and places of worship were everywhere despite the churches efforts to eradicate them.The Brentons were among those people who likely kept to themselves and likely seldom interacted very far beyond their regions.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 10:42:54 PM by brunetmj » Logged

L21 DF13** French
avalon
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« Reply #536 on: August 17, 2012, 05:58:23 AM »

I think it might be difficult to figure that out, since the regions are so close to one another and genetic affinity between them probably goes back a lot further in time than the immediate post-Roman period.

In both the R-L21 Plus Project and the Bretagne Project (I administer the first and co-admin the second) the L21+ members with ancestry in Bretagne do not have close matches in SW Britain (or anywhere else in Britain), despite the fact that Britain is well represented in the current y-dna database.

If one dates the main settlement of Britons in Armorica to the 5th century, then we should expect some 67-marker distances in a range of up to about 11 (notice I said about). This is using a rough rule of thumb of about 1 unit of gd per 150 years (I realize this is a matter of some controversy). As I said, that is a rough rule of thumb, as it does not take into account specific cases and the differences in mutation rates per str marker, etc.

I haven't really seen those sorts of matches between our Bretons and those with more recent British ancestry, but I will do some checking again when I get the chance (maybe this evening).

Thanks. I will admit that I am approaching this from a History background and I am still trying to get my head round the genetics (mutation rates, generation intervals, genetic distance, etc).

I imagine that there is closer y-dna affinity between modern English and modern Dutch and northern Germans simply because the Anglo-Saxon migrations were much larger than the British migrations to Armorica and because of the ancient genetic links between Britain and Brittany.

Unless there is another explanation for this lack of closer matches in Brittany?
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rms2
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« Reply #537 on: August 17, 2012, 08:59:16 AM »

The closer one gets in England to the Netherlands and North Germany, the more the y-dna resembles those regions. As one moves north and west, the less it resembles them and the more it becomes like the y-dna of the nations to England's north and west.

I guess that isn't surprising. The areas of what became England where the Anglo-Saxons and, later, the Danes had the greatest impact are the most Germanic-looking in terms of y-dna (and probably autosomally, too). The percentage of apparently Celtic y-dna lineages increases to the north and west.
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rms2
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« Reply #538 on: August 28, 2012, 08:50:45 PM »

There's another Breton R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project this evening: ancestral surname Le Duc, kit 235406, with mdka from Loudéac, Cotes-d'Armor, Bretagne. He's L21+ but awaiting a DF13 result.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2012, 08:51:27 PM by rms2 » Logged

erwangery
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« Reply #539 on: August 30, 2012, 04:14:56 AM »

On the R-L21 project distribution map, Labelle's MRKA is plotted in Paris whereas his place of origin seems to be "Saint Benoit, Normandy".

This Saint Benoit probably is "Saint Benoit d'Hebertot" in Lower Normandy.

As for Landry whose ancestor's place of birth is said to be in "L'Eure"  near Dreux,  I guess this actually is "Neuilly sur Eure" in Lower Normandy.

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Landry-410
http://www.landrygenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I1&tree=mylandrywebsite
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« Reply #540 on: September 01, 2012, 07:13:17 AM »

My great Grandmother Elizabeth Benoit spoke mostly French and came to Prince Edward Island late 1800's from Black Duck Brook, Newfoundland. She met my Great grandfather on PEI.
I have never heard of Saint Benoit, Normandy. Perhaps her earlier roots go back there?

A funny thing happened this Summer. I met an acordian player Percy Benoit who was born in Black Duck Brook NFLD. A possible long lost cousin?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 07:15:50 AM by OConnor » Logged

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R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #541 on: September 01, 2012, 02:37:46 PM »

On the R-L21 project distribution map, Labelle's MRKA is plotted in Paris whereas his place of origin seems to be "Saint Benoit, Normandy".

This Saint Benoit probably is "Saint Benoit d'Hebertot" in Lower Normandy.

As for Landry whose ancestor's place of birth is said to be in "L'Eure"  near Dreux,  I guess this actually is "Neuilly sur Eure" in Lower Normandy.

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Landry-410
http://www.landrygenealogy.com/getperson.php?personID=I1&tree=mylandrywebsite

Hi, Erwan.

I don't control FTDNA's project map. Where the pins show up depends on what the members themselves enter on their "Most Distant Ancestors" pages.

Sometimes things get weird in that regard.
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rms2
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« Reply #542 on: November 04, 2012, 09:12:51 AM »

In the old days, before Myres and Busby, when we were trying to cobble together our own research on L21, I used to check all the major geographical projects for new L21+ results. I don't do that so much now, since we kind of know how things are distributed. Anyway, it's been awhile since I looked at the French Heritage Project, but this morning I happened to check it out and found a whole bunch of (well, four) related Bertrands, all L21+ at least, whose mdka came from La Rochelle: kits  229499, 234677, 236449, and 238019.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

None of them is in the R-L21 Plus project yet.

I think I found the one Bertrand, kit 229499, some time ago and tried to recruit him, but the others are all new to me.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 09:15:38 AM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #543 on: November 05, 2012, 01:08:22 PM »

In the old days, before Myres and Busby, when we were trying to cobble together our own research on L21, I used to check all the major geographical projects for new L21+ results. I don't do that so much now, since we kind of know how things are distributed. Anyway, it's been awhile since I looked at the French Heritage Project, but this morning I happened to check it out and found a whole bunch of (well, four) related Bertrands, all L21+ at least, whose mdka came from La Rochelle: kits  229499, 234677, 236449, and 238019.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

None of them is in the R-L21 Plus project yet.

I think I found the one Bertrand, kit 229499, some time ago and tried to recruit him, but the others are all new to me.

Very good!  Thanks for the update.
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