R-L21* in France

[rms2]

We have another new French R-L21 in the R-L21 Plus Project: Brunet, Ysearch S7WSF.

His y-dna ancestor came from Dieppe in Haute-Normandie, so I have invited him to also join the Normandy Y-DNA Project.

BTW, Brunet is negative for all those recently-discovered, mostly British Isles subclades and is R-L21* following his Deep Clade.

He has no matches, not even at 12 markers, and is tested to 37 markers.

[rms2]

There's a new French R-L21 today: LeNormand, kit N6464, Ysearch S2YSN. As you could probably tell by the surname, he's a Norman. His most distant y-dna ancestor came from Ige in Orne in Basse-Normandie.

[seferhabahir]

One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

[seferhabahir]

One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

OK, I found an R-L96 in the FTDNA Brock Family Project (Kit #34465) whose earliest known ancestor is supposed to be a Cherokee called Aaron Brock Chief Red Bird of Clay County, Kentucky. Interesting for these two people to both be R-L96. Chief Red Bird is well documented on the web.

[seferhabahir]

One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

OK, I found an R-L96 in the FTDNA Brock Family Project (Kit #34465) whose earliest known ancestor is supposed to be a Cherokee called Aaron Brock Chief Red Bird of Clay County, Kentucky. Interesting for these two people to both be R-L96. Chief Red Bird is well documented on the web.

And some sources (I don't know how credible) say that Aaron Brock (whose direct male ancestors were Ashkenazi Jews) married a local Cherokee woman. I would believe an Ashkenazi Jewish connection to R-L21 France before I would believe a Cherokee one.

[seferhabahir]

One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

OK, I found an R-L96 in the FTDNA Brock Family Project (Kit #34465) whose earliest known ancestor is supposed to be a Cherokee called Aaron Brock Chief Red Bird of Clay County, Kentucky. Interesting for these two people to both be R-L96. Chief Red Bird is well documented on the web.

And some sources (I don't know how credible) say that Aaron Brock (whose direct male ancestors were Ashkenazi Jews) married a local Cherokee woman. I would believe an Ashkenazi Jewish connection to R-L21 France before I would believe a Cherokee one.

And another source (this one seems more credible) claims the Brock who is R1b-L96 descends from George Brock who lived in the same area as Aaron Brock' son Jesse, and was about the same age. The descendant believes George to be Jesse's son, but the descendant is the R1b-L96, and therefore no paternal relation to Jesse's "documented" sons' haplogroup of J1, where all the Ashkenazi references derive. Well whoever he is, we should get him to join the R-L21 project as a known R-L96.

[rms2]

One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?

[rms2]

One of the most recent R-L21 WTY tests is from France and came out as L96+, so what does this imply? I can't find any other L96+ in the R-L21 Project. I didn't find any in ysearch either.

OK, I found an R-L96 in the FTDNA Brock Family Project (Kit #34465) whose earliest known ancestor is supposed to be a Cherokee called Aaron Brock Chief Red Bird of Clay County, Kentucky. Interesting for these two people to both be R-L96. Chief Red Bird is well documented on the web.

He's Ysearch EBN2H, although that entry doesn't say anything about any Cherokee chiefs.

I've invited him to join the R-L21 Plus Project.

[rms2]

One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?

I see it's none of the French guys in our project, since none of them has that telltale "d" after the R1b1a2a1a1b4 string.

Do we know who the French L96+ guy is?

[rms2]

Just found a new R-L21 in the French Heritage DNA Project: Lamphier, kit 78065, whose ancestor came from Languedoc.

I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project.

[seferhabahir]

One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?

I see it's none of the French guys in our project, since none of them has that telltale "d" after the R1b1a2a1a1b4 string.

Do we know who the French L96+ guy is?

Yes, he is FTDNA kit #176268 and can trace back 900 years in France. He and the "Brock" descendant are the only two that I can find who are R-L96. Their haplotypes are pretty different.

[Mikewww]

One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?

Here's what I have from matching up the ID's...
f34465   Brock   R-L21/L96   zzCountry   zzRegion
f176268   Gontaut   R-L21/L96   France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees

I have them both in a cluster I call "1121" that has a signature like this.
537=11 520=21 391=10 (464c=15)

[seferhabahir]

One of our French R-L21 guys is L96+? Which one?

Here's what I have from matching up the ID's...
f34465   Brock   R-L21/L96   zzCountry   zzRegion
f176268   Gontaut   R-L21/L96   France   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees

I have them both in a cluster I call "1121" that has a signature like this.
537=11 520=21 391=10 (464c=15)

Yes, it is Gontaut. Interesting that a few in your 1121 are negative for L96. Do you know anyone else that is L96+ ?

[Mikewww]

...Yes, it is Gontaut. Interesting that a few in your 1121 are negative for L96. Do you know anyone else that is L96+ ?

What I was calling "1121" is based on this STR signature which is off-modal for L21: 537=11 520=21 391=10 (464c=15)

Here are the people in the 1121 variety:

f34465   Brock zzRegion L96+
f176268   Gontaut   EW Aquitaine & Pyrenees   L96+

fN68249   Ryan IS Ire z unk L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226- 3c1g
f71421   Carrucan IS Ire Munster L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226-

f13863   Daniels   IS Eng South East L21+ M37- M222- (L96?)
f6475   Longacre(Göteborg) SC North Sea L21+ M222- M37- P66- (L96?)
f117152   Rawlings IS Eng z unk L21+ M37- M222- 3c1g (L96?)

Ryan and Carrucan are L96-.  To me this warrants Ryan, Daniels, Longacre and Rawlings all testing for L96.

Also, Brock, Gontaut and Rawlings are 446=13, which is L21 modal.
Carrucan, Daniels, Ryan and Longacre are 446=14, which is +1 of modal.
Based on that my prediction is Rawlings will be L96+ and the others may not. However, I'll hedge that and say that Rawlings's closest GD is to Longacre, not one of the two L96+ guys.  

Here is another way to look at it.  At 67 markers, here are your closest GD's up to 15, in order

f176268   Gontaut   France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Biron   L96+   1121

f34465   Brock   zzzUnkOrigin   L96+   1121
f117152   Rawlings   England   L21+ M37- M222- 3c1g   1121
fN45541   Tiedeman   Germany, Lower Saxony, Stade, Heinbockel   L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226- P314.2-   1024
f155090   Carragher   Ireland   L21+   zzUnassigned
f86086   Kiely   Ireland, Leinster, Co. Waterford, Ballynamult, Tooraneena Parish   L21+ M37- M222- L96- L144- L159.2- L226- P314.2-   1014
f82353   Campbell   Scotland, Inner Hebrides, Isle of Skye   L21+   zzUnassigned
f13863   Daniels   England, South East, Buckinghamshire   L21+ M37- M222-   1121
f6475   Longacre(Göteborg)   Sweden, Västergötland län, Göteborg   L21+ M222- M37- P66-   1121

I don't know. My guess is L96 is a pretty small subclade, at least as far as the British Isles go. This doesn't mean much as France is vastly undertested. L96+ may be a subset of "1121".  It is probably at least a 1000 years old though as your GD with Brock is 10.

Perhaps you can try the "other" Brock with a short haplotype.  The Brock ancestry site shows lineage 1 MDKA as  George Brock  1785
34465 YSearch: EBN2H
42678 Ysearch: XPS7U
http://www.brockancestry.com/dna/results.htm

Perhaps the 42678 Brock can help you.... or the project administrator. I see one possible origin of the surname "Brock" is French “broque” or “brocke” meaning “a young deer”.

[rms2]

I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.

[rms2]

. . .

Perhaps the 42678 Brock can help you.... or the project administrator. I see one possible origin of the surname "Brock" is French “broque” or “brocke” meaning “a young deer”.

I've seen the surname Le Brock or Lebrock somewhere. Maybe it was originally Le Broque or Le Brocke.

[rms2]

Here is Le Brock:

http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=Le+Brock&submit=Valider&client=cdip

Looks like a Breton surname.

[seferhabahir]

I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.

But then they wouldn't be able to charge you for retesting your own SNP.

[jerome72]

This surname may be English, French, Belgian, Dutch ect ..

On the geneanet's site, Brock is a surname rather English , also found in the north of France, Belgium the Netherlands (*):
 http://www.geneanet.org/nom-de-famille/brock

 Broch: in south-eastern France
http://www.geneanet.org/nom-de-famille/broch

 Broc: everywhere in France
http://www.geneanet.org/nom-de-famille/broc
 
In short, unclear...

(*) Geneanet is a French site, mainly with French data, so the results for other countries are largely undervalued

[OConnor]

Brock Surname Origin

  From the Saxon Broc, a badger. Broch, in Gaelic or Irish, Cornish British and Welsh, has the same meaning.

Source: An Etymological Dictionary of Family and Christian Names With an Essay on their Derivation and Import; Arthur, William, M.A.; New York, NY: Sheldon, Blake, Bleeker & CO., 1857.

http://www.searchforancestors.com/surnames/origin/b/brock.php

[seferhabahir]

I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.

But then they wouldn't be able to charge you for retesting your own SNP.

Gontaut now shows up as L96+ and R1b1a2a1a1b4d on the project pages.

[Mikewww]

I noticed L96 does not appear on Gontaut's Haplotree page, and his "R1b1a2a1a1b4" does not have the "d" on its tail for L96+.

I wish FTDNA would update Haplotree pages with WTY SNP results.

But then they wouldn't be able to charge you for retesting your own SNP.

Gontaut now shows up as L96+ and R1b1a2a1a1b4d on the project pages.

Has he put himself in Ysearch.

I just did a query for all haplogroup = R1b1a2a1a1b4d but got nothing.

[seferhabahir]

Gontaut now shows up as L96+ and R1b1a2a1a1b4d on the project pages.

Has he put himself in Ysearch.

I just did a query for all haplogroup = R1b1a2a1a1b4d but got nothing.

He is in ysearch as HZJRZ but it still shows as R1b1a2a1a1b4. Does FTDNA automatically update the haplogroup at some point, or is it a manual entry?

[seferhabahir]

...Yes, it is Gontaut. Interesting that a few in your 1121 are negative for L96. Do you know anyone else that is L96+ ?

What I was calling "1121" is based on this STR signature which is off-modal for L21: 537=11 520=21 391=10 (464c=15)

Here are several more potential "1121" members from ysearch all with a Roberts ancestor, none of whom are as yet listed as L21 nor in the L21 project. They all have the right STR signature (but not 464c=15) and are all within a GD of 11 or 12 to Gontaut at 67 markers. Perhaps L96+ candidates?

SVCYK Roberts
YCBQS Roberts
GT5VK Roberts (FTDNA #94156 in Roberts Project)
EDDAG Roberts
4D5MT Jones, Roberts presumed (FTDNA #121419 in Roberts Project)

[OConnor]

my 464c is 16....I'm L21+

I beleive 464 is considered a fast mutation rate. Nothing would surprise me when we are talking L21. It's been around for 1000's of years, and 464 has had the opportunity to change many times.
As far as 464 goes I like the "float around the model" idea.
I remember a poster mentioning this idea. I think it was Maliclavelli.