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GoldenHind
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« Reply #75 on: July 30, 2009, 01:52:47 PM »

Have all or any of them previously tested P312?

No, actually, not a blessed one of them has been SNP tested.

I recruited these candidates via a bulk email sent to the Group Admin of the French Heritage Project and sent on  by him to his project members. In my email I listed several requirements for the testing. One of those requirements was that the candidate be fully SNP tested, P312+, and negative for everything downstream of P312 except, of course, for L21.

Needless to say, I didn't get too many candidates who met that requirement. As I recall, there were just two, and they both belonged to Nordtvedt's "R1b North-South Cluster", which is solidly L21-.

In the end, I had to go with men who are completely untested. As you know, it is extremely difficult (nearly impossible, in fact) to predict L21 status based on haplotype alone. So this group is very nearly a random R1b1b2 sample, although I did eliminate candidates who had very close matches in R1b1b2 subclades other than L21.

One of the stipulations was also that we not pay for the tests of Bretons (not that I have anything against Bretons - just the opposite, in fact), since the feeling is that Bretagne is an L21 hotspot, would be like "shooting fish in a barrel", and also because Breton results are subject to the claim that they are a consequence of British immigration during the historical period. So, we were looking for French results that could not be reasonably subjected to that accusation.
Since France is largely undertested, I think the results should be interesting no matter what subclade they belong to. But since the L21 project is paying for the tests, I fully understand why you are concentrating on those most likely to add to the current knowledge about the distribution of that subclade.
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rms2
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« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2009, 01:56:53 PM »

Since France is largely undertested, I think the results should be interesting no matter what subclade they belong to. But since the L21 project is paying for the tests, I fully understand why you are concentrating on those most likely to add to the current knowledge about the distribution of that subclade.

You're absolutely right. If we had unlimited money, I would be glad to order Deep Clade-R tests for all the un-SNP-tested R1b1b2 members of the French Heritage Project (and for those in a bunch of other projects, too). But our funds are sorely limited, and since L21 is back on FTDNA's Advanced Orders menu as a stand-alone test, it gives us the most b*ng for the buck (I tried to spell that word out, but apparently it can't appear here, as innocent as it is in this context).

But speaking of Deep Clade-R tests, Turpin has already gotten some of his results, even though he is in Batch 317, not due until August 31. He is already P312+, and that's an excellent start, although that leaves a long way to go and a lot of SNPs to test. At least he's in the right ballpark already! :-)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 01:59:03 PM by rms2 » Logged

GoldenHind
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« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2009, 07:48:21 PM »

Since France is largely undertested, I think the results should be interesting no matter what subclade they belong to. But since the L21 project is paying for the tests, I fully understand why you are concentrating on those most likely to add to the current knowledge about the distribution of that subclade.

You're absolutely right. If we had unlimited money, I would be glad to order Deep Clade-R tests for all the un-SNP-tested R1b1b2 members of the French Heritage Project (and for those in a bunch of other projects, too). But our funds are sorely limited, and since L21 is back on FTDNA's Advanced Orders menu as a stand-alone test, it gives us the most b*ng for the buck (I tried to spell that word out, but apparently it can't appear here, as innocent as it is in this context).

But speaking of Deep Clade-R tests, Turpin has already gotten some of his results, even though he is in Batch 317, not due until August 31. He is already P312+, and that's an excellent start, although that leaves a long way to go and a lot of SNPs to test. At least he's in the right ballpark already! :-)
From your comments, I gather these people will only be tested for L21, so if they're negative, we won't have any idea of whether they are P312*, U106, U152, etc. Correct?
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rms2
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« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2009, 07:59:15 PM »

From your comments, I gather these people will only be tested for L21, so if they're negative, we won't have any idea of whether they are P312*, U106, U152, etc. Correct?

That is correct. At $89 per Deep Clade-R, we really couldn't afford to go that route. So those who get an L21- result will only know that much. If they want more info, they will have to order the Deep Clade-R for themselves. Turpin, of course, ordered his own Deep Clade-R test.
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rms2
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« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2009, 10:42:17 AM »

Dubois (CNEMA; Dieppe, Normandy, France) and Mylott (32R4C; Villers-le-Sec, France) have both gone L21+!
 
They are both now in the Western Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project and on the R-L21* European Continent Map (on the project's Results page).
 
You all know where Normandy is. Villers-le-Sec, where Mylott's ancestor came from, on the other hand, is in the Champagne-Ardenne region of eastern France.
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Jdean
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« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2009, 06:44:03 PM »

Results are coming in thick and fast, this is beter than watching the soaps

« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 06:47:55 PM by Jdean » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2009, 08:15:54 PM »

Results are coming in thick and fast, this is beter than watching the soaps

It's been a good day for L21 results. I hope we get many more positive results.

Now I'm hoping our Czech R-L21* will join the project!
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rms2
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« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2009, 08:06:14 PM »

Another one of our Frenchmen has gone L21+: Turpin, YSearch 5CX4Y.  

He knows his ancestor was born in France, but he doesn't know where, so I placed a red placemark for him in the capital, Paris.

Actually, I placed it near "Rue Turpin" in Fontenay-sous-Bois, in the Paris metro area! :-)

Turpin is in the Western Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project now.
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2009, 03:47:45 PM »

Another one of our Frenchmen has gone L21+: Turpin, YSearch 5CX4Y.  

He knows his ancestor was born in France, but he doesn't know where, so I placed a red placemark for him in the capital, Paris.

Actually, I placed it near "Rue Turpin" in Fontenay-sous-Bois, in the Paris metro area! :-)

Turpin is in the Western Europe category on the Y-DNA Results page of the R-L21 Plus Project now.
I assume you will report those who test negative as well? I gather so far it's three for three L21?
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rms2
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« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2009, 08:25:24 PM »

I assume you will report those who test negative as well? I gather so far it's three for three L21?

I thought about doing that but wasn't sure about reporting folks' negative results.

Anyway, no, we're three for five. Simoneau and Garceau (they're on the list a few posts back) got L21- results.

Although I think L21 is looking good in France - that is, it appears to be fairly common there - , I don't think there is any one single subclade of R1b1b2 that predominates - unless one wants to back up a step and say that P312+ subclades are the predominant variety of R1b1b2 in France (as opposed to U106).

If you look at the Y-DNA Results page of the French Heritage Project and the SNP tested R1b1b2s there, you will see what I mean. There is R-P312*, R-SRY2627, R-L21, R-M222, R-U152*, R-L2, and R-U106. (One of the R-L21s, Hamon, tested S145+ with EA, so he still appears as "R1b1b2a1b".)

And, still, most of the R1b1b2s there are either completely un-SNP-tested or are in need of upgrades from the old Deep SNP-R1b or the pre-P312, pre-L21 Deep Clade-R.

I wish some rich person would step forward and pay to have all those guys SNP tested!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 08:28:29 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2009, 08:50:21 PM »

I assume you will report those who test negative as well? I gather so far it's three for three L21?

I thought about doing that but wasn't sure about reporting folks' negative results.

Anyway, no, we're three for five. Simoneau and Garceau (they're on the list a few posts back) got L21- results.

Although I think L21 is looking good in France - that is, it appears to be fairly common there - , I don't think there is any one single subclade of R1b1b2 that predominates - unless one wants to back up a step and say that P312+ subclades are the predominant variety of R1b1b2 in France (as opposed to U106).

If you look at the Y-DNA Results page of the French Heritage Project and the SNP tested R1b1b2s there, you will see what I mean. There is R-P312*, R-SRY2627, R-L21, R-M222, R-U152*, R-L2, and R-U106. (One of the R-L21s, Hamon, tested S145+ with EA, so he still appears as "R1b1b2a1b".)

And, still, most of the R1b1b2s there are either completely un-SNP-tested or are in need of upgrades from the old Deep SNP-R1b or the pre-P312, pre-L21 Deep Clade-R.

I wish some rich person would step forward and pay to have all those guys SNP tested!

Here's that list I mentioned (now with notes for those with results):

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Turpin (5CX4Y) - France (exact location pending)  L21+
4.  Garceau (98S6K) - St. Rene, Poitiers, France  L21-
5.  Dubois (CNEMA) - Dieppe, Normandy, France  L21+
6.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
7.  Broussard (GGXZB) - near Roussillon, France
8.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
9.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
10.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
11.  Simoneau (7NWMT) - Bouin, France (near Nantes)  L21-
12.  Mylott (32R4C) - Villers-le-Sec, France (near Chaumont)  L21+


There is now a new one to add:

13. Grenier (4XHJC) - France ("Northern France" is all the family knows for now)

Of all those on the list, none of them except Grenier stands out as really likely to be L21+. I chose them because none of them seemed to be obviously anything else, if you know what I mean. In other words, it was a gamble, but they all seemed to have at least a shot at coming up positive on the L21 test.

Grenier is different in that his closest matches in Ysearch are R-L21*, so I am fairly confident he will be L21+ (although I could get surprised, obviously).

So, the new "French L21 Results Pending" list should look like this:


1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
4.  Broussard (GGXZB) - near Roussillon, France
5.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
6.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
7.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
8.  Grenier (4XHJC) - France ("Northern France" is all the family knows for now)


Eight left. Wish we could test many many more.

Anyone want to guess who will be L21+ and who will not?
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rms2
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« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2009, 01:25:14 PM »

New list:

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
4.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
5.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
6.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
7.  Grenier (4XHJC) - France ("Northern France" is all the family knows for now)


We lost Broussard (GGXZB; from near Roussillon, France), who was #4 above. He went L21-. Bernard Secher predicted that because he believed Roussillon is too far south. He was right.

Seven left.

Any predictions?
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« Reply #87 on: August 19, 2009, 11:58:19 AM »

I've been gone a few days. It's time for an update.

First, the good news: there is a another new French R-L21*, Dussault (original spelling Dusceau, YSearch RK6ZX). His ancestor came from La Rochelle on France's west coast.

More good news is that Turpin found some old paperwork belonging to his great-grandfather that shows that he was born in Brécey in Basse-Normandie (our second Norman).

The bad news is that a couple of the men on the list in my last post (above) went L21-, so we're down to five who are awaiting L21 results:

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
3.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
4.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
5.  Grenier (4XHJC) - France ("Northern France" is all the family knows for now)

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rms2
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« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2009, 09:30:25 AM »

Here's an updated list of the French R-L21* thus far:

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
3. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
4. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Foret, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
5. Le Com - Chateauneuf- du-Faou, Finistere, Bretagne, France
6. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistere, Bretagne, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistere, Bretagne, France
8. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
9. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le- Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
10. Delahoussaye - Louisiana, USA
11. Dubois -  Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
12. Mylott - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
13. Turpin -  Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
14. Dussault - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
15. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France


There is also a 16th if you count Bonnet, whose ancestry is Savoyard from Piemonte, Italy.

That's not bad for a fairly new SNP in a drastically under-tested region.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 09:33:37 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2009, 10:01:35 AM »

I am posting an updated list yet again to correct something. Delahoussaye's ancestor died in Louisiana, but it turns out he was born in Paris in about 1702. (I also alphabetized the list.)

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
3. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
4. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
5. Dussault - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
6. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
7. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
8. Hamon -  Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
9. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
10. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
11. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
12. Mylott - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
13. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
14. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
15. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
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« Reply #90 on: August 26, 2009, 07:46:08 PM »

I just spotted a brand new R-L21* in the French Heritage Project, Cartier, kit 82258 (scroll down to the Cs; the entries are alphabetical):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Hopefully, he'll join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I know the surname Cartier looks a lot like Chartier, the surname of a man who is already a member of the R-L21 Plus Project, but the haplotypes don't match. Different line.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 08:10:13 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2009, 08:11:50 PM »

I just spotted a brand new R-L21* in the French Heritage Project, Cartier, kit 82258 (scroll down to the Cs; the entries are alphabetical):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

Hopefully, he'll join the R-L21 Plus Project.

I know the surname Cartier looks a lot like Chartier, the surname of a man who is already a member of the R-L21 Plus Project, but the haplotypes don't match. Different line.

Cartier has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. I am just waiting for some information from him.
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« Reply #92 on: August 28, 2009, 07:16:11 PM »

Okay.  As I mentioned above, Cartier joined the R-L21 Plus Project. It turns out - drum roll, please - that his most distant y-dna ancestor came from the very same town that Bernard's did, Drain, in NW France. Small world, eh? :-)
 
More news: Grenier has gone L21+ and is now in the France category on the project's Y-DNA Results page. I put a placemark in Paris for him, since he knows (or, rather, the lady sponsoring him knows) that Grenier's most distant y-dna ancestor came from Northern France but does not know the exact city or town.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 07:32:46 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: August 28, 2009, 08:48:58 PM »

Here is the updated list.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
6. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
9. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
10. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
11. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
12. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
13. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
14. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
15. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
16. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
17. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
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« Reply #94 on: August 29, 2009, 03:00:49 AM »

Okay.  As I mentioned above, Cartier joined the R-L21 Plus Project. It turns out - drum roll, please - that his most distant y-dna ancestor came from the very same town that Bernard's did, Drain, in NW France. Small world, eh? :-)
 
More news: Grenier has gone L21+ and is now in the France category on the project's Y-DNA Results page. I put a placemark in Paris for him, since he knows (or, rather, the lady sponsoring him knows) that Grenier's most distant y-dna ancestor came from Northern France but does not know the exact city or town.
Wow, so we can create now the R-L21 club of Drain ;-)
For a city of about 1700 inhabitants: that's great!!
 
Bernard
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mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
YDNA of my maternal uncle: I1*
Ysearch and Mitosearch: UE9BU
Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

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« Reply #95 on: August 29, 2009, 09:01:45 AM »

Okay.  As I mentioned above, Cartier joined the R-L21 Plus Project. It turns out - drum roll, please - that his most distant y-dna ancestor came from the very same town that Bernard's did, Drain, in NW France. Small world, eh? :-)
 
More news: Grenier has gone L21+ and is now in the France category on the project's Y-DNA Results page. I put a placemark in Paris for him, since he knows (or, rather, the lady sponsoring him knows) that Grenier's most distant y-dna ancestor came from Northern France but does not know the exact city or town.
Wow, so we can create now the R-L21 club of Drain ;-)
For a city of about 1700 inhabitants: that's great!!
 
Bernard



It is an interesting circumstance. I had to set your placemark and Cartier's placemark on either side of Drain on the Google R-L21* European Continent Map. Otherwise, you covered each other and together looked like just one placemark.

If you look at this map of Celtic tribes in Gaul about 58 BC, you will see that the Pictones apparently lived south of the Loire in the vicinity of Drain. Just across the river were the Andes and the Namnetes. I'm pretty sure the Namnetes gave their name to Nantes.

One of my own ancestors on my father's side, Paul Micou, came from Nantes.

Thus far we seem to be doing pretty well in what Caesar called Gallia Celtica and Gallia Belgica, but, as far as I know, there are no L21s in old Aquitania. I'm not sure about Narbonesis, since perhaps Grenoble was located there, in the land of the Allobroges, and we do have one R-L21* there.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 09:36:57 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: August 29, 2009, 11:38:02 AM »

I found a better and more detailed map in Koch's An Atlas for Celtic Studies. It's Map 17, and it shows the Celtic tribe the Andecavi in the region of Drain, just south of the Loire (then called the Liger). The Pictones were much farther south. The Namnetes were to the west of the Andecavi, around Condevincum (Nantes) and the mouth of the Loire.

That whole area is rich in Celtic artifacts.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 11:46:48 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #97 on: August 29, 2009, 12:13:36 PM »

It is an interesting circumstance. I had to set your placemark and Cartier's placemark on either side of Drain on the Google R-L21* European Continent Map. Otherwise, you covered each other and together looked like just one placemark.

If you look at this map of Celtic tribes in Gaul about 58 BC, you will see that the Pictones apparently lived south of the Loire in the vicinity of Drain. Just across the river were the Andes and the Namnetes. I'm pretty sure the Namnetes gave their name to Nantes.

One of my own ancestors on my father's side, Paul Micou, came from Nantes.

Thus far we seem to be doing pretty well in what Caesar called Gallia Celtica and Gallia Belgica, but, as far as I know, there are no L21s in old Aquitania. I'm not sure about Narbonesis, since perhaps Grenoble was located there, in the land of the Allobroges, and we do have one R-L21* there.

Yes, you are right Rich: Drain was not so far from the limits between Namnetes, Andes and Pictones during Gaulish times, and then from the limits between Brittany, Anjou and Poitou during middle ages.
Namnetes gives the name to Nantes, Andes gives the name to Angers (Anjou), Pictones gives the name to Poitiers (Poitou).
 
The region of Drain (Les Mauges) was the center of  different conflicts between dukes of Poitou, Anjou and Brittany during middle ages.
 
In the beginning The Mauges belong to Poitou. But following Viking invasions in 9th century, tke king of France created a new county: the county of Herbauges from a part of Poitou and from Nantes county which belonged to Brittany.
 
The breton Alain Barbe-Torte defeated the Vikings and then took possession of Herbauges county. But Alain Barbe-Torte died a few years after, and his wife got married with Foulque Le Bon duke of Anjou. Then The Mauges belonged to Anjou.
 
This is a very short summer of the story but you can read more ont his on my own web site: http://translate.google.fr/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fpagesperso-orange.fr%2Fbsecher%2Fhistoire.htm&sl=fr&tl=en&history_state0=fr|en|il%2520mourut%2520aussit%25C3%25B4t
 
Henri Hubert, in his book on the celts, think it is possible that Pictones of the Loire Valley are related to Picts of Scotland. He speak about the Cone d'Avanton: one of the golden hat found in Poitou: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hat. This object seems to show that celts were present in Poitou in 1000 BC.
 
Bernard
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YDNA: R-DF13+ L69+ DYS464X: cccc.3
mtDNA: U6a7a1
mtDNA of my father: U5a2c
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rms2
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« Reply #98 on: August 29, 2009, 02:06:20 PM »

Bernard -

This is an interesting conversation to me (and I know we are conducting it on more than one forum!). I looked at the article you posted on the L21 Yahoo Group about the Golden Hats. L21 has been found in or near each place one of those hats was found. Coincidence?

It is interesting that you mentioned Hubert and his connecting of the British Picts and the Gallic Pictones. He also connects the Brigantes, the Parisii, and the Cassi of the Continent to the British tribes of the same names, which makes sense to me.

On pages 214-215 of his book, The History of the Celtic People, Hubert says, "There were Parisii in the neighbourhood of modern Paris. The Brigantes came from Switzerland and Upper Bavaria; Bregenz was originally Brigantum, and Cambodunum (Kempten) was a town of the Brigantes. They founded another Cambodunum on the road from York to Chester . . . The Cassi must have belonged to the same group as the Veliocasses, Viducasses, Baiocasses, and Tricasses; this group perhaps gave its name to Hessen.

The presence of the Parisii, Brigantes, and Cassi among the Britons shows that they were related to the Celtic peoples of the Continent, and also points to the part of the Celtic world in which we should look for the origins of which they preserved the tradition."


« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 02:07:18 PM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #99 on: September 07, 2009, 08:54:20 AM »

I am intrigued by the very high L21 hit rate in the north and east of France (given the tiny sample tested) as well as the clear concentraton in the west and south of Germany.  Instead of dividing these up and throwing them into the French and German national totals seperately (which I think hides how high that particular area of Germany is in L21), we should probably really look at them combined into one 'former Gaul' total.  I think one thing that is coming out of this is how big L21 was in Celtic Gaul or Gallia Celtica in particular (see Gaul under Wikipedia for map).  It cant help feeling it could be the modal clade there.  I think the days where among the S116 clades S28 can claim to be THE Gaulish Celtic clade are done now and that glory needs to be shared with L21 and likely others too.   

I think that the importance of continental L21 has been somewhat overlooked.   I think this is partly due to the improbable idea that it originated in the isles.  I think when some stats for the percentage of L21 hits per tested R1b person from the northern/eastern half of France become available as a result of the current near-blind testing of French R1b folk for L21 by the L21 project, the isles origin idea will wither away.     

The continental distribution provides a strong hint at where the ancestors of many isles folk lived prior to arriving in the isles (whatever the period this happened- thats another arguement).  That place seems to be northern France and perhaps the Rhine before that and lord knows before that (I would guess the Danube).   No real surprise there in terms of geographical common sense and certainly no surprise archaeologically.

I have a bad feeling (not sure why) that we may not find clades downstream of L21 that straddle both the isles and the continent,so L21 may be the best we ever get.
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