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rms2
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« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2009, 07:19:45 AM »

I was snooping around at the French Canadian Project web site and found three R-L21* I did not yet know about:

D'Arcy 72665
 
Delahoussaye  133975
 
Emery  58796


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults

I think someone mentioned before that D'Arcy could be an Irish surname (perhaps of Norman extraction).

Delahoussaye is only common in Rhone-Alpes, in southeastern France, in the Alps and next to Switzerland.

I contacted Doug Miller, the admin of the French Canadian Project, and he forwarded an email from me to those three men. Thus far, Emery has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. I haven't heard from the other two yet. Hopefully they will also join soon.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 07:20:24 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2009, 08:02:03 PM »

Emery and D'Arcy have joined the R-L21 Plus Project, but neither traces his most distant y dna ancestor to France. D'Arcy's came from Wicklow, Ireland (just south of Dublin), and Emery's is in the "Colonial" category (like mine).

I'm still waiting on Delahoussaye.
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rms2
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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2009, 12:17:38 PM »

I still haven't heard from Delahoussaye. At this point, I guess I never will.

Anyway, it's interesting that there are quite a few small places in France called La Houssaye. It's a popular place name.
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rms2
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« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2009, 06:46:34 PM »

Found another French R-L21* just a few minutes ago: Rotrou, kit E5171, here (scroll down to the Rs - the surnames are alphabetically listed):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults
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rms2
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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2009, 07:22:47 PM »

Found another French R-L21* just a few minutes ago: Rotrou, kit E5171, here (scroll down to the Rs - the surnames are alphabetically listed):

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/French-Canadian%20Heritage%20DNA%20Project/default.aspx?section=yresults


Apparently he's Ysearch YPDNZ, and his ancestor came from Cloyes sur le Loir, which is in north central France.
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rms2
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« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2009, 08:12:15 AM »

Rotrou has joined the R-L21 Plus Project. His ancestor is on the R-L21* Map now.
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« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2009, 12:06:07 PM »

He is definitely not from Brittany. I am convinced there were L21 migration from Rhein valley to western France, may be in the same time than L21 migration from Rhein valley to British islands. So i suppose we'll find other french L21 between Rhein valley and Brittany.

Bernard
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Ysearch of my maternal uncle: CEC59

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« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2009, 08:28:27 PM »

He is definitely not from Brittany. I am convinced there were L21 migration from Rhein valley to western France, may be in the same time than L21 migration from Rhein valley to British islands. So i suppose we'll find other french L21 between Rhein valley and Brittany.

Bernard


I could be wrong, but I think there is a lot of R-L21* in France. We just don't have enough French R1b1b2 ordering the Deep Clade-R test. As more of them order it, I think we will start to see the map of France fill in.

I wish Delahoussaye would join, but I've tried recruiting him twice now and have gotten no response.
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« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2009, 08:19:55 AM »

Delahoussaye has joined the R-L21 Plus Project!

His most distant ancestor has a VERY French name, but he was born in Louisiana, so I'm not yet able to add a pin to the map of France for him.
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« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2009, 10:23:19 AM »

Updating the list of French R-L21*.

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isère, Rhône-Alpes, France (this surname is also common in Switzerland)
3. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France (surname also common in Switzerland and Austria)
4. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
5. Le Com - Châteauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
6. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
9. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
10. Delahoussaye - Louisiana, USA


Note: I have included those with clearly French surnames who are currently brickwalled in French Canada and French Louisiana because those are unique regions of well-established French heritage.

I think we will see many more French R-L21* in the future (if we can just get more Frenchmen to test!).
« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 10:28:58 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2009, 10:16:36 AM »

I copied this from another forum.  Cotswoldman's Ysearch is 6KDDZ.  His first 12 markers equal WAMH.   He re-projected the data on his FTDNA ancestral origins page to normalize by total population by country.

I've said this before -- they didn't call France Gaul for no reason.  Celtic author/archaeologist/linguist Henri Hubert wrote that the French language would be about what Latin would sound like if it were spoken by a Celtic.

Has anyone looked at the split of pure (or very close) WAMH folks by known  R1b1b2 subclades?  R-L21* would have to be a high %, I think.

Quote from: cotswoldman
....So the different top 10 results for my haplotype (WAMH) matches compared are...
By %
Wales 5.40%
Scotland 4.50%
Northern Ireland 4.00%
United Kingdom 4.00%
France 3.90%
Iceland 3.60%
Zimbabwe 3.44%
Belgium 3.40%
Spain 3.40%
England 3.20%
.....
By Projected Matches based on Pop
France 2,537,866
United Kingdom 2,464,492
Germany 1,641,200
England 1,634,944
Spain 1,586,506
Italy 900,265
Philippines 543,000
Netherlands 511,505
Zimbabwe 459,206
South Africa 383,200
.....
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=7630&st=0#entry113621
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susanrosine
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« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2009, 12:25:48 PM »

Hmmmm, I have my WAMH folk who have NOT done deep clade testing in their own WAMH group in the Wales DNA project. Maybe I'll go back in to those who have done deep clade testing and see who is WAMH, and let you know how many are L21*. I see Wales has the highest percentage in Cotswoldman's posting.

I've always assumed that as soon as we can get more of the French to test, that they will be largely R-P312* and L21*. I'd be shocked if R-U106 was the majority.
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
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« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2009, 01:06:38 PM »

Sorry to be pedantic, but I think there is a problem with how the numbers are crunched with respect to the UK.

Almost all of these people will be Americans with UK ancestry.
 
At present the distribution of people throughout England Scotland and Wales (I've left N. Ireland out as I think a lot of people wouldn't differentiate between there and Ireland) are as follows.

England       86%
Scotland        9%
Wales            5%

Where as the distribution of claimed ancestry is

England       65%
Scotland      30%
Wales            5%

Of course a good few people living in England would have Scottish and Welsh ancestor, and I suspect not all the people who claim to come from Scotland really did, but these figures show a greater proportion of Scots emigrated to the US than English, which I think is an historical fact anyway, and WAMH is as the figures show more common in Scotland and Wales than England, thus over blowing the total estimate for WAMH in the UK .
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 01:54:44 PM by Jdean » Logged

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susanrosine
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« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2009, 02:27:50 PM »

Sorry to be pedantic, but I think there is a problem with how the numbers are crunched with respect to the UK.

Almost all of these people will be Americans with UK ancestry.
 
At present the distribution of people throughout England Scotland and Wales (I've left N. Ireland out as I think a lot of people wouldn't differentiate between there and Ireland) are as follows.

England       86%
Scotland        9%
Wales            5%

Where as the distribution of claimed ancestry is

England       65%
Scotland      30%
Wales            5%

Of course a good few people living in England would have Scottish and Welsh ancestor, and I suspect not all the people who claim to come from Scotland really did, but these figures show a greater proportion of Scots emigrated to the US than English, which I think is an historical fact anyway, and WAMH is as the figures show more common in Scotland and Wales than England, thus over blowing the total estimate for WAMH in the UK .

I took at look at all the R1b1b2 men in the Wales DNA project who claim Wales as country of origin (meaning that I did NOT look at the "need more info" or "British Colonies" categories).
Most men are NOT WAMH.  No U106 men (all subclades) are WAMH. No M222 men are WAMH. Only a few L21* men are WAMH. No P312* men are WAMH. And I've already sorted the R1b1b2 men who need deep clade into WAMH and non-WAMH, and non-WAMH is in the definite majority.
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Dad: JAMES:  Ysearch QSCQ3;  R-P312, L21+ (R1b1b2a1b5*)
Dad: mitosearch QSCQ3; T1a; no matches HVR2 or FGS
Mom's brother: LEWTER: Ysearch FYFDA;  R-U106, L48+ (R1b1b2a1a*)
Mom's brother: mitosearch FYFDA, U5b2; 1 exac
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« Reply #64 on: June 12, 2009, 07:00:28 PM »


I took at look at all the R1b1b2 men in the Wales DNA project who claim Wales as country of origin (meaning that I did NOT look at the "need more info" or "British Colonies" categories).
Most men are NOT WAMH.  No U106 men (all subclades) are WAMH. No M222 men are WAMH. Only a few L21* men are WAMH. No P312* men are WAMH. And I've already sorted the R1b1b2 men who need deep clade into WAMH and non-WAMH, and non-WAMH is in the definite majority.

That makes sense even though Wales leads the charts in WAMH haplotypes 5.40% is still a minority, interesting that L21 is in front though.
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« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2009, 11:29:07 PM »


I took at look at all the R1b1b2 men in the Wales DNA project who claim Wales as country of origin (meaning that I did NOT look at the "need more info" or "British Colonies" categories).
Most men are NOT WAMH.  No U106 men (all subclades) are WAMH. No M222 men are WAMH. Only a few L21* men are WAMH. No P312* men are WAMH. And I've already sorted the R1b1b2 men who need deep clade into WAMH and non-WAMH, and non-WAMH is in the definite majority.

That makes sense even though Wales leads the charts in WAMH haplotypes 5.40% is still a minority, interesting that L21 is in front though.
We need to backup a minute to understand WAMH, the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype and the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, AMH.
http://www.familytreedna.com/MatchWAMH.html

Here are the 1st STR markers of both:
AMH 13-24-14-11-n-n-n-12-n-n-13-n
WAMH 13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29
WAMH is just a more granular (refined) set of criteria extending AMH.

Please keep in mind the original FTDNA Y ancestral origin data pulled related to this topic were perfect 12 for 12 matches against the modal for WAMH.  The significance of the highest proportion of pure 12 for 12 WAMH in Wales is not that is 12 for 12, just that it represents that a lot of R-M269 men from Wales are somewhat closely related ... and I think they were probably R-P312.  It's all relative.  WAMH is the core haplotype for R-M269.  R-M269 is the most common clade in Europe.   Wales is the place with highest percentage of WAMH.  The 5.4% is not a "low" number.... it is a very high number, relatively.  It is the peak of the R-M269 purity mountain, or in my opinion, the peak of the R-P312 purity mountain.

Anyway, this is the French L21* topic.    France has a lot of WAMH which I think means they may have a lot of R-P312.... probably R-L21*.   Just a guess, but since R-L21* has the same modal as R-M269 which is WAMH... well maybe ... R-L21* is all over France!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 11:37:29 PM by Mike » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2009, 02:48:41 AM »

I have no serious doubts about that, but also keep in mind that according to David Faux's U152 database, the U152 project modal is also the same as the L21 project modal.
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« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2009, 05:24:55 PM »

I have no serious doubts about that, but also keep in mind that according to David Faux's U152 database, the U152 project modal is also the same as the L21 project modal.
I wasn't sure of that...  so U152 has WAMH as it's modal as well.   WAMH is the core haplotype of P312 it seems.

It is interesting that L21*, P312*, U152 are all WAMH based while L21 subclade M222 is not.   Um... probably could stir up some controversy with the Irish if we did some speculation on that.       That belongs on another thread, but it is something to ponder.
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« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2009, 03:58:19 PM »

Is this guy French? or English?   I seem him in the French Canadian project as Emery but when I look at his Ysearch I get a different name and place altogether, Davis in England.  The haplotype is the same though.

French Canadian FTDNA project:
92   58796   Emery

Ysearch:
RD8DX   Davis       England
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rms2
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« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2009, 08:01:00 PM »

Is this guy French? or English?   I seem him in the French Canadian project as Emery but when I look at his Ysearch I get a different name and place altogether, Davis in England.  The haplotype is the same though.

French Canadian FTDNA project:
92   58796   Emery

Ysearch:
RD8DX   Davis       England

He's in the R-L21 Plus Project already, in the "Colonial" category. I seem to recall that he's in the French Heritage Project based on maternal French ancestry. I think the "Davis" entry is something new, so I should move him to the "England" category, I guess.

Note: I just moved him to the "England" category based on the YSearch entry.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 08:03:59 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2009, 08:16:47 PM »

Notice how many red, un-SNP-tested "R1b1b2s" there are in the French Heritage Project? Notice how many others have only the green "R1b1b2"?

I wish some generous benefactor would come forward and volunteer to pay for SNP testing for all those men!

Surely at least some of them are R-L21* (perhaps many of them).

Some of those with a green "R1b1b2a1b" have never been tested for L21, and at least one, Hamon, tested L21+ (S145+) with EA and so still has only a green "R1b1b2a1b" from FTDNA.
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« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2009, 10:25:24 PM »

Updating the list of French R-L21*.
1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isère, Rhône-Alpes, France (this surname is also common in Switzerland)
3. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France (surname also common in Switzerland and Austria)
4. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
5. Le Com - Châteauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
6. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
9. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
10. Delahoussaye - Louisiana, USA

Note: I have included those with clearly French surnames who are currently brickwalled in French Canada and French Louisiana because those are unique regions of well-established French heritage.
I think we will see many more French R-L21* in the future (if we can just get more Frenchmen to test!).
I noticed this guy in the French heritage project, in Ysearch as KQ276.
920   47514   Ballard    R1b1b2a1b5
Ysearch says his paternal lineage is Cherokee, USA.  I sent them an email asking to join the L21 project.
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« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2009, 02:27:41 PM »

Because of some recent generous donations to the R-L21 Plus Project, we have been able to recruit some men of French descent for L21 testing. I cannot say for sure which of any (or if any) of them will be L21+, but here is the list:

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Turpin (5CX4Y) - France (exact location pending)
4.  Garceau (98S6K) - St. Rene, Poitiers, France
5.  Dubois (CNEMA) - Dieppe, Normandy, France
6.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
7.  Broussard (GGXZB) - near Roussillon, France
8.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
9.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
10.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
11.  Simoneau (7NWMT) - Bouin, France (near Nantes)
12.  Mylott (32R4C) - Villers-le-Sec, France (near Chaumont)


Feel free to check them out and speculate on which you think will be L21+ and which will not.

It should prove interesting at any rate!
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« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2009, 08:19:47 PM »

Because of some recent generous donations to the R-L21 Plus Project, we have been able to recruit some men of French descent for L21 testing. I cannot say for sure which of any (or if any) of them will be L21+, but here is the list:

1.  Mireault (5UFRA) - Tours, France
2.  Mignault (No YSearch entry) - Bagneux, France (near Paris)
3.  Turpin (5CX4Y) - France (exact location pending)
4.  Garceau (98S6K) - St. Rene, Poitiers, France
5.  Dubois (CNEMA) - Dieppe, Normandy, France
6.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
7.  Broussard (GGXZB) - near Roussillon, France
8.  Guerin (E3ZCR) - near Saint-Martin-du-Fouilloux, France (west of Poitiers)
9.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
10.  Chaput (YEYAC) - Noidans Le Ferrous, France (near the Swiss border)
11.  Simoneau (7NWMT) - Bouin, France (near Nantes)
12.  Mylott (32R4C) - Villers-le-Sec, France (near Chaumont)


Feel free to check them out and speculate on which you think will be L21+ and which will not.

It should prove interesting at any rate!
Have all or any of them previously tested P312?
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rms2
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« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2009, 09:50:38 AM »

Have all or any of them previously tested P312?

No, actually, not a blessed one of them has been SNP tested.

I recruited these candidates via a bulk email sent to the Group Admin of the French Heritage Project and sent on  by him to his project members. In my email I listed several requirements for the testing. One of those requirements was that the candidate be fully SNP tested, P312+, and negative for everything downstream of P312 except, of course, for L21.

Needless to say, I didn't get too many candidates who met that requirement. As I recall, there were just two, and they both belonged to Nordtvedt's "R1b North-South Cluster", which is solidly L21-.

In the end, I had to go with men who are completely untested. As you know, it is extremely difficult (nearly impossible, in fact) to predict L21 status based on haplotype alone. So this group is very nearly a random R1b1b2 sample, although I did eliminate candidates who had very close matches in R1b1b2 subclades other than L21.

One of the stipulations was also that we not pay for the tests of Bretons (not that I have anything against Bretons - just the opposite, in fact), since the feeling is that Bretagne is an L21 hotspot, would be like "shooting fish in a barrel", and also because Breton results are subject to the claim that they are a consequence of British immigration during the historical period. So, we were looking for French results that could not be reasonably subjected to that accusation.
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