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vtilroe
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« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2008, 10:09:06 PM »

Very interesting and numerous results today; were you in there?
Grrr.. Not that I can see.  Rick mentioned elsewhere that only one Netherlands sample came back, with a negative result.  I think it was the one in the R1b-NS cluster.
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2008, 09:00:43 PM »

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We added another Breton member yesterday

The French are filling in nicely, but precious few L21+ from Belgium, Netherlands and Germany.



Well, we have five L21+ of German origin now and a Swiss L21+ from Zürich.

I wouldn't get too excited yet about what we don't have. Remember, L21 was just discovered in October and is not yet a regular and official part of FTDNA's Deep Clade-R.

It takes awhile to collect data from dna testing, especially when genetic genealogy is dominated by persons of British Isles ancestry.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 07:30:10 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2008, 11:04:24 PM »

I was able to add Le Bras to the "R-L21 W. Europe" category and to the R-L21* Map this evening, since he finally got his M222- result.

His ancestor came from Brasparts in Bretagne, France.
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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2009, 09:02:56 PM »

I think I mentioned elsewhere that Bontron-Major of Montussaint, near the Swiss border, is R-L21*. See Placemark 87 on the R-L21* Map at the link in my signature below.
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rms2
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« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2009, 09:09:25 PM »

Chartier went L21+ this evening. I've asked him to supply the name, birth date, birthplace, etc., of his most distant ancestor so I can add him to the R-L21* Map.

The World Names Profiler has the surname Chartier all over France.
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didier
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« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2009, 02:15:32 PM »

I looked at geopatronyme.com :
http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=chartier&submit=Valider&client=cdip
Chartier appears to be nearly absent from the south and east of France with a kind of hotspot in a large western area. (of course Paris is a hotspot but this should be ignored).
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rms2
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« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2009, 02:38:38 PM »

I looked at geopatronyme.com :
http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/carte/nomcarte.cgi?nom=chartier&submit=Valider&client=cdip
Chartier appears to be nearly absent from the south and east of France with a kind of hotspot in a large western area. (of course Paris is a hotspot but this should be ignored).

Chartier himself is from Quebec, as I recall. Was there a particular area of France that contributed most to the colonization of what is now Canada?
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didier
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« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2009, 02:42:34 PM »

Yes, precisely that western part of France. (with some exceptions , of course)
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rms2
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« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2009, 09:37:36 AM »

Yes, precisely that western part of France. (with some exceptions , of course)

Ah, okay. I have not heard from Chartier himself yet.

From what I can see of L21 in France thus far (and things could change), it seems to be split between a mainly Breton group in the northwest and a couple of Alpine results in the southeast, very close to our Germans and our one Swiss (who is German-Swiss).

There seems to be a substantial amount of L21 in Western Germany (more than in France, apparently), so perhaps we will see some spillover into Eastern France.

It is tempting to attribute the northwestern French L21 to British immigration during the closing days of the Roman Empire and thereafter and to the known Irish incursions there in much the same period. I'm not sure that is correct, though. It could be L21 was already present there or even that Armorica (Brittany) served as the jumping off point for the entry of some L21 into Britain and Ireland. The flow of L21 between northwestern France and the British Isles could have been a two-way affair.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 09:38:35 AM by rms2 » Logged

cmblandford
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« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2009, 03:35:54 AM »

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It could be L21 was already present there or even that Armorica (Brittany) served as the jumping off point for the entry of some L21 into Britain and Ireland. The flow of L21 between northwestern France and the British Isles could have been a two-way affair.

.  Cunliffe in his book “The Ancient Celts” page 220, illustration 178 states “Distribution of Dressel 1A amphorae in north-western Gaul and southern Britain, indicating the trade axis operating in early first century BC”.  This would be pre Roman invasion but was stimulated by Roman economic trade.  The findings are from Hengistbury Head (coast of Dorset, England) and the coast of Breton and various sites in Brittany.
My closest 67 matches seem to be in western France and my earliest known ancestor was born in Dorset.  So I find this to be a very interesting connection.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21*
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« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2009, 01:10:41 PM »

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It could be L21 was already present there or even that Armorica (Brittany) served as the jumping off point for the entry of some L21 into Britain and Ireland. The flow of L21 between northwestern France and the British Isles could have been a two-way affair.

.  Cunliffe in his book “The Ancient Celts” page 220, illustration 178 states “Distribution of Dressel 1A amphorae in north-western Gaul and southern Britain, indicating the trade axis operating in early first century BC”.  This would be pre Roman invasion but was stimulated by Roman economic trade.  The findings are from Hengistbury Head (coast of Dorset, England) and the coast of Breton and various sites in Brittany.
My closest 67 matches seem to be in western France and my earliest known ancestor was born in Dorset.  So I find this to be a very interesting connection.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21*



I do, too, and I think it goes way back. One of the reasons the Britons fleeing Britannia found Brittany such a congenial spot is because they already had cousins there.
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« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2009, 01:51:10 PM »

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It could be L21 was already present there or even that Armorica (Brittany) served as the jumping off point for the entry of some L21 into Britain and Ireland. The flow of L21 between northwestern France and the British Isles could have been a two-way affair.

.  Cunliffe in his book “The Ancient Celts” page 220, illustration 178 states “Distribution of Dressel 1A amphorae in north-western Gaul and southern Britain, indicating the trade axis operating in early first century BC”.  This would be pre Roman invasion but was stimulated by Roman economic trade.  The findings are from Hengistbury Head (coast of Dorset, England) and the coast of Breton and various sites in Brittany.
My closest 67 matches seem to be in western France and my earliest known ancestor was born in Dorset.  So I find this to be a very interesting connection.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21*



I do, too, and I think it goes way back. One of the reasons the Britons fleeing Britannia found Brittany such a congenial spot is because they already had cousins there.
Well, they certainly would have been able to speak the language. I understand that Welsh and Breton is still mutually intelligible.
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rms2
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« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2009, 02:31:47 PM »

Well, they certainly would have been able to speak the language. I understand that Welsh and Breton is still mutually intelligible.

True, and I think they still play bagpipes in Brittany, although maybe that is something they decided to copy from the Scots (although I know bagpipes were once widespread in Europe).
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« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2009, 03:32:31 PM »

Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 
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« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2009, 07:14:39 PM »

Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 


Yes, and there's a Cornish R-P312*, Williams, in Penryn.
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cmblandford
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« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2009, 09:40:18 PM »

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Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 

I noticed that also.  I found a very similar Ysearch member in Wiltshire but have not been able to contact him.  The only name identification historically I have found is in southern England.  I have not been able to find any close haplotype relation to Irish or Scot but show a closer similarity to western Europe.

There are lots of P Celt structures remaining in southern England but almost no L21.  Maybe the Romans, Saxons, Normans etc. ran it out or diluted it relative to Ireland but that doesn't seem consistent with the virtual absence of L21 in Cornwall.  I tend to think (hope, imagine) that downstream L21 SNP will differentiate Q Celt and P Celt.  Perhaps the Irish, Scots and Northern Euope Q Celt L21 was the more aggressive and larger, and the southern P Celt strain left less of a mark.

One can only wait and learn.

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« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2009, 10:59:16 AM »

Excuse me for jumping in here but I wanted to say how much this topic is of interest to our Gaston project. We now have about a dozen members whose EKA was born in 17th century Ulster but our family tradition and name suggest that our ancestor was from France. I tested positive for L21 and I assume the same would be the case for our other members in this lineage. We have four Gastons (surnames) from France in our project so far: 1 is R1b1b2, another J2 and a third E1b1b1. We haven't received the results for the fourth one yet. His ancestors are from St. Pierre and Miquelon.

Notre "cousin" français qui est R1b1b2 aimerait peut-être communiquer avec un de vous. Il habite Les Landes et ne sait pas encore s'il est positif pour L21. Il a environs 15/37 différences avec nous, les Gaston d'Ulster. C'est ça qui me fait croire qu'il ne sera pas L21, mais on ne sait jamais.

We are looking for other French Gastons to join our project. Any help would be appreciated. It appears that there are only about 500 Gastons (surname) in France.

Craig Gaston
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GoldenHind
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« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2009, 02:16:54 PM »

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Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 

I noticed that also.  I found a very similar Ysearch member in Wiltshire but have not been able to contact him.  The only name identification historically I have found is in southern England.  I have not been able to find any close haplotype relation to Irish or Scot but show a closer similarity to western Europe.

One can only wait and learn.


I assume you are aware that Blandford is a place name and apparently an unusually rare one in England. I can only find Blandford Forum and Blandford St. Mary, both in Dorset. It is very probable that your surname originated there.
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« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2009, 03:12:25 PM »

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Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 

I noticed that also.  I found a very similar Ysearch member in Wiltshire but have not been able to contact him.  The only name identification historically I have found is in southern England.  I have not been able to find any close haplotype relation to Irish or Scot but show a closer similarity to western Europe.

One can only wait and learn.


I assume you are aware that Blandford is a place name and apparently an unusually rare one in England. I can only find Blandford Forum and Blandford St. Mary, both in Dorset. It is very probable that your surname originated there.

And indeed this is the area that the name is most common
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rms2
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« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2009, 07:17:52 PM »

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Chuck, I noticed you were the only L21* in the entire South West England region.  Five million people, largely Brythonic, and one Dorset L21*.   SW Ireland--Munster--has 12 L21* with roughly one-fifth the population. 

I noticed that also.  I found a very similar Ysearch member in Wiltshire but have not been able to contact him.  The only name identification historically I have found is in southern England.  I have not been able to find any close haplotype relation to Irish or Scot but show a closer similarity to western Europe.

There are lots of P Celt structures remaining in southern England but almost no L21.  Maybe the Romans, Saxons, Normans etc. ran it out or diluted it relative to Ireland but that doesn't seem consistent with the virtual absence of L21 in Cornwall.  I tend to think (hope, imagine) that downstream L21 SNP will differentiate Q Celt and P Celt.  Perhaps the Irish, Scots and Northern Euope Q Celt L21 was the more aggressive and larger, and the southern P Celt strain left less of a mark.

One can only wait and learn.



I don't think there is any shortage of L21 in southern England. Give it time. It will start to show up.
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« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2009, 07:29:39 PM »


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And indeed this is the area that the name is most common


The name appears in the Doomsday Book albeit with a slightly different spelling.  The location of Blandford is on the River Stour in Dorset at an ancient crossing for trade to London.  I don’t know which came first the family name or the location name, but the L21 suggests an early western Celt or pre Celt origin.  I find very little similarity to Irish and Scot haplotypes which suggests to me that the family came from western Europe as part of the P Celt migration which had much help from Atlantic and western continent trade, Roman invasion and retreat and Belgae invasion etc, etc.  My earliest known ancestor, Thomas Blandford was born in 1648 in Dorset and he came to Maryland in 1672.  So I don’t know if the family actually lived in southern England in prehistoric times or moved there from the continent prior to coming to America.  If they lived there in 1000 BC they experienced some pretty exciting changes.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21
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« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2009, 08:36:54 PM »




The name appears in the Doomsday Book albeit with a slightly different spelling.  The location of Blandford is on the River Stour in Dorset at an ancient crossing for trade to London.  I don’t know which came first the family name or the location name, but the L21 suggests an early western Celt or pre Celt origin.  I find very little similarity to Irish and Scot haplotypes which suggests to me that the family came from western Europe as part of the P Celt migration which had much help from Atlantic and western continent trade, Roman invasion and retreat and Belgae invasion etc, etc.  My earliest known ancestor, Thomas Blandford was born in 1648 in Dorset and he came to Maryland in 1672.  So I don’t know if the family actually lived in southern England in prehistoric times or moved there from the continent prior to coming to America.  If they lived there in 1000 BC they experienced some pretty exciting changes.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21
Ysearch EYSPZ


Nice bit of history, if I were to hazard a guess, I would think the place name came first, the ford element certainly seems to suggest that
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« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2009, 09:59:26 PM »


Quote
And indeed this is the area that the name is most common


The name appears in the Doomsday Book albeit with a slightly different spelling.  The location of Blandford is on the River Stour in Dorset at an ancient crossing for trade to London.  I don’t know which came first the family name or the location name, but the L21 suggests an early western Celt or pre Celt origin.  I find very little similarity to Irish and Scot haplotypes which suggests to me that the family came from western Europe as part of the P Celt migration which had much help from Atlantic and western continent trade, Roman invasion and retreat and Belgae invasion etc, etc.  My earliest known ancestor, Thomas Blandford was born in 1648 in Dorset and he came to Maryland in 1672.  So I don’t know if the family actually lived in southern England in prehistoric times or moved there from the continent prior to coming to America.  If they lived there in 1000 BC they experienced some pretty exciting changes.

Chuck Blandford
R-L21
Ysearch EYSPZ

The Anglo-Saxons did not have hereditary surnames. Since the place name has an Anglo-Saxon origin, it must have existed before it was used as a surname.
While I do not dispute the possibility, even probability of a Celtic origin for your line, I don't think one can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or even Norman origin, as I suspect L21 was present in both Germany and Normandy.
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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2009, 10:23:30 PM »

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I don't think one can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or even Norman origin, as I suspect L21 was present in both Germany and Normandy.

I agree, I am hoping some downstream SNP will shed some light on that.

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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2009, 01:58:09 PM »

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I don't think one can rule out an Anglo-Saxon or even Norman origin, as I suspect L21 was present in both Germany and Normandy.
I agree, I am hoping some downstream SNP will shed some light on that.
Agreed.  I think I'm a case in point.  I keep feeling like I must be old Brythonic Celt, but the folklore and history for my family could easily have me as Gaellic/Old Irish or Bretonic/Norman-mixed or Norman.   Anglo-Saxon doesn't seem like quite as viable an option but who knows?   .. I still the Bell Beaker folks are the common theme.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>S6365>L705.2(&CTS11744,CTS6621)
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