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rms2
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« Reply #425 on: July 16, 2010, 09:31:52 PM »

That's close to Switzerland, I believe.

It's much closer to Germany and Luxembourg, actually, but still well inside eastern France.

Yeah, it is closer to Luxembourg. In fact, don't they speak the same dialect?

I'm not sure, but Lorraine used to be part of Germany.
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rms2
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« Reply #426 on: July 20, 2010, 08:58:55 PM »

Another new French R-L21 this evening: Bodet, kit 175379 (no Ysearch entry yet). His ancestor came from Gourin, Morbihan, Bretagne.

He has no close matches beyond 12 markers, so, if you guys are waiting for a Breton who matches Cornishmen or Welshmen, you will have to wait a bit longer.
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« Reply #427 on: July 20, 2010, 09:19:01 PM »

Another new French R-L21 this evening: Bodet, kit 175379 (no Ysearch entry yet). His ancestor came from Gourin, Morbihan, Bretagne.

He has no close matches beyond 12 markers, so, if you guys are waiting for a Breton who matches Cornishmen or Welshmen, you will have to wait a bit longer.
I think if we ever see a close match it will be an NPE in America or an historic movement like all the ones that you may get tired of hearing from time to time.

The historic notion of the Bretons is
Quote from: Wikipedia
They trace much of their heritage to groups of Brythonic speakers who settled the area from south western Great Britain in two waves from the 4th to 6th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people

That's 1500 years, at least.  There could (actually "should") be GD's of 15 to 20 from Cornwall/Dorset to Bretagne.  The only hope of a link is a few key signature markers and/or an SNP downstream of L21, probably.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 09:20:14 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #428 on: July 20, 2010, 09:37:31 PM »

Another new French R-L21 this evening: Bodet, kit 175379 (no Ysearch entry yet). His ancestor came from Gourin, Morbihan, Bretagne.

He has no close matches beyond 12 markers, so, if you guys are waiting for a Breton who matches Cornishmen or Welshmen, you will have to wait a bit longer.
I think if we ever see a close match it will be an NPE in America or an historic movement like all the ones that you may get tired of hearing from time to time.

The historic notion of the Bretons is
Quote from: Wikipedia
They trace much of their heritage to groups of Brythonic speakers who settled the area from south western Great Britain in two waves from the 4th to 6th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people

That's 1500 years, at least.  There could (actually "should") be GD's of 15 to 20 from Cornwall/Dorset to Bretagne.  The only hope of a link is a few key signature markers and/or an SNP downstream of L21, probably.

I think a gd of 15-20 represents a timespan of a lot longer than 1500 years.



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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #429 on: July 21, 2010, 10:10:58 AM »

Another new French R-L21 this evening: Bodet, kit 175379 (no Ysearch entry yet). His ancestor came from Gourin, Morbihan, Bretagne.

He has no close matches beyond 12 markers, so, if you guys are waiting for a Breton who matches Cornishmen or Welshmen, you will have to wait a bit longer.
I think if we ever see a close match it will be an NPE in America or an historic movement like all the ones that you may get tired of hearing from time to time.
The historic notion of the Bretons is
Quote from: Wikipedia
They trace much of their heritage to groups of Brythonic speakers who settled the area from south western Great Britain in two waves from the 4th to 6th centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_people
That's 1500 years, at least.  There could (actually "should") be GD's of 15 to 20 from Cornwall/Dorset to Bretagne.  The only hope of a link is a few key signature markers and/or an SNP downstream of L21, probably.
I think a gd of 15-20 represents a timespan of a lot longer than 1500 years.
I said 1500 years "at least."  The reason I used the 1500 years is that is typical of what people estimate for R-M222's TMRCA and when I look at GD's for (over 67) for R-M222 I see GD's of15-20 as the outer layer.

... but I won't argue TMRCA's because I can get a wide variety of estimates depending on the method and data selection.  Just read Tim Janzen's postings.  I'm also not the statistician that Ken et al are.
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rms2
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« Reply #430 on: July 21, 2010, 09:59:34 PM »


I said 1500 years "at least."  The reason I used the 1500 years is that is typical of what people estimate for R-M222's TMRCA and when I look at GD's for (over 67) for R-M222 I see GD's of15-20 as the outer layer.

... but I won't argue TMRCA's because I can get a wide variety of estimates depending on the method and data selection.  Just read Tim Janzen's postings.  I'm also not the statistician that Ken et al are.

Me either, but I know there are loads of men from different subclades who are gds 15-20 apart, and it can't be anywhere near 1500 years to their MRCA.

Since we know at least some Britons settled in Brittany beginning in the 5th century, one would expect at least some of our Bretons to be getting at least some halfway proximate British haplotype neighbors. A gd of 15-20 at 67 markers is as good as nothing at all.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #431 on: July 22, 2010, 11:50:42 AM »

I find the way the Rhine group is linked to the NW French group by a thin line near the Mosselle very interesting.  It sort of suggests rivers were vital and that the Mosselle and Rhine were used to link Atlantic and west-central Europe. I have thought for a long time that the Mosselle may be the (or certainly a) major  link between the Atlantic and west-central European L21 hotspots although perhaps the direction of movement remains uncertain.   
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« Reply #432 on: July 22, 2010, 12:36:18 PM »


I said 1500 years "at least."  The reason I used the 1500 years is that is typical of what people estimate for R-M222's TMRCA and when I look at GD's for (over 67) for R-M222 I see GD's of15-20 as the outer layer.

... but I won't argue TMRCA's because I can get a wide variety of estimates depending on the method and data selection.  Just read Tim Janzen's postings.  I'm also not the statistician that Ken et al are.

Me either, but I know there are loads of men from different subclades who are gds 15-20 apart, and it can't be anywhere near 1500 years to their MRCA.

Since we know at least some Britons settled in Brittany beginning in the 5th century, one would expect at least some of our Bretons to be getting at least some halfway proximate British haplotype neighbors. A gd of 15-20 at 67 markers is as good as nothing at all.
I don't think GD's should be evaluated in a vacuum, period.  I think a combination of SNP's (to reduce "noise") and signature STR markers along with GD's can help improve the probabilities of understanding the relationships.

Sorry for getting off on a tangent.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 12:37:11 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #433 on: July 22, 2010, 07:31:05 PM »


I don't think GD's should be evaluated in a vacuum, period.  I think a combination of SNP's (to reduce "noise") and signature STR markers along with GD's can help improve the probabilities of understanding the relationships.

Sorry for getting off on a tangent.

I agree with you completely. I also think geography should be considered, as well.
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rms2
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« Reply #434 on: July 22, 2010, 07:38:12 PM »

I find the way the Rhine group is linked to the NW French group by a thin line near the Mosselle very interesting.  It sort of suggests rivers were vital and that the Mosselle and Rhine were used to link Atlantic and west-central Europe. I have thought for a long time that the Mosselle may be the (or certainly a) major  link between the Atlantic and west-central European L21 hotspots although perhaps the direction of movement remains uncertain.   

I find that trail interesting, as well. I guess if one moves up the Moselle Valley, it makes it easier to travel from the central uplands to the European plain (and easier going toward the west) in northern France.

So, north down the Rhine and west up the Moselle Valley could have been an important route.
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argiedude
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« Reply #435 on: July 26, 2010, 10:19:22 PM »

Greetings, haven't been around in a while. :) What about the recent study of French y-dna that tested several downstream-R1b1b2 SNPs like U152 or U106 that scientific studies never consider? Edit: and it was supposed to have found an M222.

Ramos-Luis, 2010

doi:10.1016/j.fsigss.2009.09.026

« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 10:20:17 PM by argiedude » Logged

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rms2
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« Reply #436 on: July 27, 2010, 08:06:22 AM »

You mean, Phylogeography of French Male Lineages?

Unfortunately, they didn't test for P312 or L21. What is really interesting about that study, however, is that what they call R1b1b2* was the most frequent type of R1b1b2 in every region they studied except for Alsace, where U152 was most frequent.

I think they found M222 only in Midi-Pyrenees, of all places.

Ramos-Luis et al tested for M222, SRY2627, U106, and U152. So, their "R1b1b2*" was every R1b1b2 who was negative for all four of those SNPs.

It's a pity they didn't test for P312 and L21. We might have really learned something.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 08:07:40 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #437 on: July 27, 2010, 01:28:20 PM »

You mean, Phylogeography of French Male Lineages?

Unfortunately, they didn't test for P312 or L21. What is really interesting about that study, however, is that what they call R1b1b2* was the most frequent type of R1b1b2 in every region they studied except for Alsace, where U152 was most frequent.

I think they found M222 only in Midi-Pyrenees, of all places.

Ramos-Luis et al tested for M222, SRY2627, U106, and U152. So, their "R1b1b2*" was every R1b1b2 who was negative for all four of those SNPs.

It's a pity they didn't test for P312 and L21. We might have really learned something.



and you have to think that most of their R1b1b2* must be L21* and P312* in some unknown proportion.  Given that to date L21* seems to dominate over P312* in France (project maps) you have to think you have to think that more than half of that R1b1b2* majority (except Alsace) is L21 in most places.  Imagine if the list of R1b1b2* (their definition) could be tested for L21.  The hit rate would probably be very high with all the U152, U106 etc weeded out.

 I would also love to know if U152 drops of dramatically west of Alsace or if its gradual.  All we know is its big in Switzerland, Alsace, Italy and apparently parts of south Germany, maybe along the Rhine in general.  We have no idea if it has any major presence in the remainder of France which after all was a major chunk of Gaul, that part which was not subject to major permanent Germanic settlement and language shift.  I would certainly not consider a clade that is only common in the German overlaid periphery of Gaul a clear-cut 'Gaulish' clade as has often been claimed.  I am not saying it couldnt have been but it remains to be proven it is prevalent in France beyond Alsace.  If only we could get a hold of the percentages they found of each clade in the French study.  I seems really odd that they did not at least include percentages.     
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« Reply #438 on: July 27, 2010, 04:06:56 PM »


I have a feeling we've talked about this before. The study tested 27 SNPs and 17 STRs, but they don't show the data. Aaaargh. I think this is actually standard operating procedure in these Forensic Science International articles. We have to get that info.
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« Reply #439 on: July 27, 2010, 06:34:19 PM »


I have a feeling we've talked about this before. The study tested 27 SNPs and 17 STRs, but they don't show the data. Aaaargh. I think this is actually standard operating procedure in these Forensic Science International articles. We have to get that info.

Is the copy of the paper circulating maybe not the full thing? Maybe they want people to purchase some more expensive full version with Stats.  I think a few of us have emailed them.  I tried to aim low and just ask for the basic percentages but i got no reply.  It was done by a Spanish University so maybe emails in English didnt help but my grasp Spanish is strictly specialised to ordering beer and tapas. 
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rms2
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« Reply #440 on: July 28, 2010, 07:57:24 AM »

I have a feeling we've talked about this before. The study tested 27 SNPs and 17 STRs, but they don't show the data. Aaaargh. I think this is actually standard operating procedure in these Forensic Science International articles. We have to get that info.

Yes, we discussed this paper right after we found out about it a few months ago. I don't know what the other SNPs were, but apparently they tested only enough of R1b1b2 to find out if someone was M269+, M222+, SRY2627+, U106+ or U152+. No P312 or L21, sad to say.

Perhaps the paper focused on R1b1b2 because it is by far the most frequent y haplogroup in France, and the other SNPs tested were for subclades of various other y haplogroups like C, D, E1b1b, F, G, I, J1, J2, L, M, N, O, Q, T, etc.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 07:58:32 AM by rms2 » Logged

aktiva
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« Reply #441 on: August 01, 2010, 09:10:19 PM »

I have broken down our French L21 results thus far by geographic region.

Alsace
1
Wendling

Aquitaine
1
La Tour

Bretagne
5
Gery
Huet
Le Bras
Le Com
Martin (Pelland)

Centre
3
Hebert
Mireault
Rotrou

Champagne-Ardenne
1
Mylott

Franche-Comte
1
Bontron-Major

Île-de-France
2
Delahoussaye
Doucet

Lorraine
1
Schneider

Normandie
8 total -

Basse-Normandie:
7
DePort
Labelle
Landry
Leprovost
Lessard
St. Jorre-dit-Sergerie
Turpin

Haute-Normandie:
1
Dubois

Pays-de-la-Loire
3
Cartier
Hamon
Sicher (Secher)

Poitou-Charentes
3
Dupuis
Dussault
LeBlanc

Rhone-Alpes
1
Gignoux

France- Exact Location Unknown
4
Chartier
Grenier
Lefeber
Rideau (there is a town called Azay-le-Rideau in Centre on the Indre River, but I don't know if the Rideau surname is connected to it at all)

Here is a map showing the regions of France pretty clearly:

http://www.placesinfrance.com/map_france.html

The following lists the regions in France which thus far have not produced any L21+ reports (I have given the map number from the map above in parentheses to make it easy to spot them on that map):

Auvergne (16)
Bourgogne (Burgundy) (12)
Corsica (22)
Languedoc-Roussillon (20)
Limousin (15) (La Tour's ancestor came from right on the Limousin border, however)
Midi-Pyrenees (19)
Nord-pas-de-Calais (1)
Picardie (2)
Provence-Alpes-Cote-d'Azur (21)

Here's what I think. The apparent concentration of L21 in northwestern France is partly real but also partly the product of North American immigration patterns. The fact that we already have L21 from pretty much all around the rim of France I think is indicative that it is widely distributed throughout that country. Right now we really need some test subjects from the areas above, especially (1), (2), (12), (15) and (16). Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that many Canadians or Louisianans have ancestors who came from those places.

If we have to wait around for more results from current French citizens we may all be pushing up daisies before much is learned.




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aktiva
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« Reply #442 on: August 01, 2010, 09:19:35 PM »

With respect to Canadian French and Louisiana French tests:

There actually is an FTDNA site dedicated to them.................

The vast majority of early Canadians came from Perche and Rouen................with a healthy sized group  of Picards as well.

If you are not finding much L21+ reported from French ancestry in Canada you will have to assume it is not a huge feature of Normandy and close by regions: because literally thousands of first Canadians are from this region................so you should have a lot of it showing up if it belongs there anciently.

The second most common ancestry is from Poitou........
followed by Brittany..........
followed by Paris.................
and a sprinkle from Toulouse

If L21+ exists to any large extent in these regions: it should be showing up greatly....based upon Canadian DNA samples;

The DNA changes for Louisiana which had more southern French migrants in later years (not counting Acadians)  however the Acadian modal values are pretty much Visigothic as expected given its history: followed by an influx of Protestants from Switzerland as well....S28+....before the Huguenot expulsions

What is not represented in Canada much is Burgundy and Provence and more remote French locations....such as the centre and hills of Pyrenees

Overall though: if the large amount of L21+ in Ireland represents the influx of Belgic Celts through Britain......then it would show up more in northern France and far less anywhere else.....and I think this holds true for the most part.....my sense is that L21+ is a Belgic Celt feature......

and I believe it is not a feature of Basque regions that have similar DNA profiles

Given that Canadians are very interested in DNA testing and most of them know where their ancestor came from: it is only a mattter of time before a very large pool of samples is available......and I believe unless they are Breton or Norman there is not going to be a huge amount of L21+
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eochaidh
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« Reply #443 on: August 01, 2010, 10:42:15 PM »

One problem with determining the origin in France of French-Canadians is that some came from other parts of France to Poitou (Charente-Maritme) before leaving for French Canada. My maternal great-grandfather was a "Coursolle"  who sailed from Ile-De-Re off the coast of La Rochelle. However the Coursolle family had come from Auvergne in south central France only a generation before. I do not know what the Y-DNA is for that line, and I don't know if any Auvergnats have tested.

The bulk of my French-Canadian ancestors are form Brittany, Normandy and Poitou as you stated, though.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #444 on: August 01, 2010, 10:46:37 PM »

And know I see from an above list that 16 Auvergnats have tested L21- . Interesting, I would assume then that my Coursolles are not L21+.

Thanks,  Miles
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« Reply #445 on: August 02, 2010, 07:04:57 AM »

And know I see from an above list that 16 Auvergnats have tested L21- . Interesting, I would assume then that my Coursolles are not L21+.

Thanks,  Miles

The figure you're referring to is a map reference, Rich didn't provide details for R-L21 neg results
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« Reply #446 on: August 02, 2010, 07:25:44 AM »

With respect to Canadian French and Louisiana French tests:

If you are not finding much L21+ reported from French ancestry in Canada you will have to assume it is not a huge feature of Normandy and close by regions: because literally thousands of first Canadians are from this region................so you should have a lot of it showing up if it belongs there anciently.


I think you've misunderstood the post, the problem isn't French Canadians are turning up R-L21 neg (quite the opposite in fact), but rather that most of the people being recruited are French Canadian creating a bias in the results from the parts of France that they come from and a great big hole in the middle of France where fewer people have been tested for R-L21
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« Reply #447 on: August 02, 2010, 07:41:35 AM »

It should be noted that as of August 2009 FTDNA posts that some sort of randome testing was done with French DNA samples and 58% tested positive for L21 and of these 61% were found in Northern France.........this would fit nicely with an out of Belgium theory for Celts.................with some back flow from Britain and Ireland later on.................

Now as of February 2009 the P312 Basque projects dont have a single L21+ member.......
whereas it certainly shows up in northern France, Germany and bits of Scandinavia

So if most Irish can trace back to Iberia..........then L21+ is something that developed later in Ireland...........because it is negligible in Iberia.........and then must have back flowed east ....................

I think it is easier to believe it has origins in and around Belgic Celts, spread west: and bottlenecked there: thus creating the density of Irish L21s...........

L21+ just doesnt seem to be a Spanish Basque lower France feature, meaning even if related tribes from the Alps spread there thus creating some ancestral echo in DNA profiles: the original L21 man must not have gone that route: but north instead...

Anyway that is what makes sense......


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« Reply #448 on: August 02, 2010, 01:09:29 PM »

L21 was extremely common in a near random sample of French people, albeit with an unavoidable sample bias to the north-west.  It certainly proves L21 is very strong between the NW, the Seine, the Garrone.  I think more than half of R1b1b2 people tested in that area came in L21.  L21 also seems to have a presence around the Alps in the SE France/Switzerland area.  

I think so far L21 looks strong in Gallia Celtica but very weak in Belgic Gaul.  L21 drops off to very little indeed in the Belgic areas of NE France and Belgium. So, I think L21 is not at all Belgic.  

Incidentally, the idea of Belgae in Ireland is not at all favoured by mainstream archaeologists and historians in the main stream.  For some reason people on the web and amateurs are obsessed with it because of O'Rahilly's book (which really should not be treated as some sort of bible the way it is) but the Belgae had a distinctive material culture and its not ever been found in Ireland.  

There is clearly a huge area of the centre of France where few people are testing at all.  It seems to me that most of France remains unexplored.  However, a recent academic study showed that R1b1b2 that is negative for U152, U106, M222 etc is the majority everywhere except in Alsace where U152 is the majority. The group that is the majority elsewhere must be largely composed of L21* and S116* although the proportion is unknown because they didnt test these SNPs.   There is every chance that L21 is common throught France.  In general its just turned up too often for every French heritage/French person tested for it to be anything other than common.  

As for Ireland, remember that there need not be an Iberian link (or at least a direct one).  That is mythology.  L21 seems rare is Spain but where it does appear it actually seems to concentrate in and around the east (especially the Basque country) and then also at the opposite extreme in the Azores and fringes of Portugal.  Rich's work on Iberian L21 to me is throwing up an unexpected decent representation of L21 among the Basques.  If anything I think the most likely looking origin of Irish and Atlantic British L21 is NW France which makes perfect sense geographically.   
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rms2
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« Reply #449 on: August 13, 2010, 08:29:44 PM »

Henri, Ysearch MS2TS, got his L21+ result this evening. His ancestor came from Plougastel, Finistère, Bretagne.
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