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MHammers
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« Reply #400 on: April 30, 2010, 11:31:28 PM »

LOL its home sport is Rugby Union. Sounds like my kind of place!

Hi Neal,

Are you a rugger?  I wonder how many of the French National Team are L21?  I think there is more of a Cro-magnon component with most of those guys.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #401 on: May 01, 2010, 02:18:36 AM »

A new R-L21* Frenchman (literally, in this case) appeared today and joined the R-P312 and Subclades Project: Tatard, kit E11062, Ysearch 9UCC9.

His ancestor was a Breton, born in Questembert in Morbihan, Bretagne.

He hasn't joined the R-L21 Plus Project yet, but I'm working on that.

By the way, he has NO close matches, so those who want to make all Bretons into transplanted Britons will strike out on this one, at least thus far. (I think that is true of all of our Bretons, incidentally.)

I recall hearing that the area of transplantation of he British Celtic language to NW France was considerably smaller than Brittany and that the eastern half of Brittany that remained Latinate.  I also recall that the old style physical anthropologists reckoned that only in a few coastal areas did the Bretons resemble the people of SW Britain.  My overall impression is that the Britons were likely a minority who settled only in considerable numbers in the west of Brittany and as a thinner elite elsewhere.  It is certainly clear that L21 is common across a much wider area of France than Brittany and that L21 must have been common there long before the British settlement in Brittany.  
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 10:35:19 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #402 on: May 01, 2010, 06:55:21 AM »

I recall hearing that the area of transplantation of he British Celtic language to NW France was considerably smaller than Brittany and that there was a large part of Brittany that remained Latinate.  I also recall that the old style physical anthropologists reckoned that only in a few coastal areas did the Bretons resemble the people of SW Britain.  My overall impression is that the Britons were likely a minority who settled in a very limited area.  It is certainly clear that L21 is common across a much wider area of France than Brittany and that L21 must have been common there long before the British settlement in Brittany.   

I think that is absolutely right, but you know with what we have to contend.

Despite the fact that our R-L21 Bretons don't have any close British Isles matches, there is a certain group that will see them as proof that all L21 came out of the Isles, no matter what evidence exists to the contrary.

I could be mistaken, but I believe we have more Frenchmen than any other currently known subclade.
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« Reply #403 on: May 01, 2010, 07:52:41 AM »

. . .
I could be mistaken, but I believe we have more Frenchmen than any other currently known subclade.

I count 31 French U152 (and subclades) on David Faux's web site:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm

And testing for U152 has been around 2-3 years longer than testing for L21.

I counted 13 French U106+ (and subclades) in the R-U106 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

That was tough to count, too, because that project has members of French origin divided up in at least three different categories.

Testing for U106 has also been available for 2-3 years longer than testing for L21 has.

Another clade for which testing has been available a lot longer than for L21 is R-SRY2627 (M167). I counted 13 R-SRY2627 of French origin in the SRY2627 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are currently 31 French R-P312* in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but P312* is a paragroup and likely to someday be split into further smaller, component subclades. Still, there are as many known R-P312* Frenchmen as there are known U152 (and subclades) Frenchmen.

We currently know of at least 41 R-L21 men of French ancestry, so, yes, as far as I can tell,  R-L21 is the leading R1b1b2 subclade in France.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 08:55:22 AM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #404 on: May 01, 2010, 09:08:19 AM »

. . .
I could be mistaken, but I believe we have more Frenchmen than any other currently known subclade.

I count 31 French U152 (and subclades) on David Faux's web site:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm

And testing for U152 has been around 2-3 years longer than testing for L21.

I counted 13 French U106+ (and subclades) in the R-U106 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

That was tough to count, too, because that project has members of French origin divided up in at least three different categories.

Testing for U106 has also been available for 2-3 years longer than testing for L21 has.

Another clade for which testing has been available a lot longer than for L21 is R-SRY2627 (M167). I counted 13 R-SRY2627 of French origin in the SRY2627 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are currently 31 French R-P312* in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but P312* is a paragroup and likely to someday be split into further smaller, component subclades. Still, there are as many known R-P312* Frenchmen as there are known U152 (and subclades) Frenchmen.

We currently know of at least 41 R-L21 men of French ancestry, so, yes, as far as I can tell,  R-L21 is the leading R1b1b2 subclade in France.


That makes R-L21 about 32% of the SNP-tested R1b1b2 in France overall. I think that is about right, but it may be a trifle high.

When all is said and done, I'm guessing R-L21 will be 25% of the R1b1b2 in all of France, with a higher figure in Northern France. U152 (including its subclades) may be very near that figure, as well, with greater strength in the southeast, near the Swiss and Italian borders.

I'm theorizing that R-SRY2627 will be strongest in the southwest, nearest the Spanish border, and R-U106 will have its highest frequency in the northeast.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 09:10:04 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #405 on: May 01, 2010, 10:32:42 AM »

. . .
I could be mistaken, but I believe we have more Frenchmen than any other currently known subclade.

I count 31 French U152 (and subclades) on David Faux's web site:

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm

And testing for U152 has been around 2-3 years longer than testing for L21.

I counted 13 French U106+ (and subclades) in the R-U106 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=yresults

That was tough to count, too, because that project has members of French origin divided up in at least three different categories.

Testing for U106 has also been available for 2-3 years longer than testing for L21 has.

Another clade for which testing has been available a lot longer than for L21 is R-SRY2627 (M167). I counted 13 R-SRY2627 of French origin in the SRY2627 Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are currently 31 French R-P312* in the R-P312 and Subclades Project, but P312* is a paragroup and likely to someday be split into further smaller, component subclades. Still, there are as many known R-P312* Frenchmen as there are known U152 (and subclades) Frenchmen.

We currently know of at least 41 R-L21 men of French ancestry, so, yes, as far as I can tell,  R-L21 is the leading R1b1b2 subclade in France.



Those totals would make L21 about a third of French R1b.  However, with the several years headstart the other SNPs have I would say the real percentage has to be significant higher than a third.  The project blind testing seemed more like 50% to me although perhaps the lack of samples from the east where L21 must be lower and U152 higher according to the recent Santiago de Compostella University study may be a biase the other way.  My guess is that L21 is about 33-40% of French R1b1b2 and therefore about 20-25% of the entire French population.  That must be a higher percentage than in England.

I certainly agree with the recent post that suggest that France most contain the most L21 people of any country in Europe when you consider the percentage of R1b1b2, the proportion of L21 and the actual size of populations of each country.  I think someone suggested 40% of all L21 in Europe may be in France.  Its hard to comment on that but I have long thought that there is as much in France as there is in the British Isles, perhaps 10 million each???? The only other large countries where a good population of L21 seems to be clear are Germany but this is concentrated in the south and west and the overall national figure is probably low because of this. The other areas where L21 has been identified as having a significant presence-Switzerland, Norway, southern Holland, Czech Republic, the extreme NE of Spain all would have much smaller populations. Actually France having 40% of all L21 in Europe seems in the right ballpark to me.  I always had a hunch the motherload of L21 was in France and I suppose 40% of Europe's L21 could be described as that.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 11:10:22 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #406 on: May 01, 2010, 11:15:24 AM »

An even more staggering stat than France having 40% of all European L21 would be what percentage of continental L21 France has.  My guess is that France has about two-thirds  of continental L21. 
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« Reply #407 on: May 01, 2010, 11:40:10 AM »

And then what about the celtization of Italy, one million of slaves after the De bello gallico, the Barbarian Invasions? Pretty nothing. And we should riconsider the R-U152 in Central Europe: practically the expansion from the Italian refugium!
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« Reply #408 on: May 01, 2010, 12:32:10 PM »

And then what about the celtization of Italy, one million of slaves after the De bello gallico, the Barbarian Invasions? Pretty nothing. And we should riconsider the R-U152 in Central Europe: practically the expansion from the Italian refugium!

Gioiello -

L21 and U152 aren't really totally different animals. Both are subclades of P312; both could have arisen within the orbit that became Italo-Celtic. U152 could have had a center of gravity more toward the Italic side of things but certainly with a big slice of the southern and eastern range of Celtic. L21 could have arisen entirely within the Celtic side, well north of the Alps, with very little share in the Italic part.

One might even call L21 and U152 "brother clades".

In general, it sure is hard to tell them apart by haplotype.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 12:36:26 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #409 on: May 01, 2010, 12:35:16 PM »

An even more staggering stat than France having 40% of all European L21 would be what percentage of continental L21 France has.  My guess is that France has about two-thirds  of continental L21. 

Alan -

You could be right. I was trying to be conservative. It is true that our pretty-much blind testing generally yields about a 50% or greater return.

The true French L21+ figure could be 30-40%. But even 25% is huge in a country the size of France with as much R1b1b2 as it apparently has.
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« Reply #410 on: May 01, 2010, 02:01:53 PM »

Rich, if we don't think that not only R-L21 and R-U152 are "brother clades", but also the whole R1b1b2, we "Europeans" (and why not R1a?) won't have any future in this globalized world.
Really the whole Y is a brother clade, but you know my vicissitudes and know how everybody defends his own "clade".
I said this to answer to the nonsenses said in these last years about Italians, above all from Italians or mid-Italians who are like the "demi-vierge".
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« Reply #411 on: May 20, 2010, 01:51:50 PM »

Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 531*=12 mutation.


EDIT: DYS531 is the correct STR, not what I had previously.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 03:49:19 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #412 on: May 20, 2010, 03:12:51 PM »

Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 534=12 mutation.

Which Nordtvedt cluster are you refering to? Is it the Irish type IV/Continental?
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« Reply #413 on: May 20, 2010, 04:29:00 PM »

Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 531*=12 mutation.

*EDIT: DYS531 is correct.
Which Nordtvedt cluster are you refering to? Is it the Irish type IV/Continental?

No, it is another cluster.

The group I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc has this off-modal signature, from slow to faster speed:
531=12 YCAIIb=24 413a=22 GataH4=12 385b=15 389ii-i=17 391=10 444=11 449=30

Keep in mind that Ken looked at only 37 markers only and looked across all of R1b. Dennis Wright has a table of what I believe he archived of Ken's clusters.
http://www.irishtype3dna.org/KenNordtvedt.php

One line, R1b-Sc2, has these STR's highlighted:
385=11,15 389i=13 389ii=30 391=10 444=11 449=30 H4=12 etc.

These R1b-Sc2 values seem to overlap with the pure L21* folks labeled R-L21-1012-A-Sc.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 04:33:36 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #414 on: May 20, 2010, 05:09:46 PM »

Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 531*=12 mutation.


EDIT: DYS531 is the correct STR, not what I had previously.

Sorry but i am not too good at remembering all the different cluster names.  What is 1012-A-Sc? 
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« Reply #415 on: May 20, 2010, 05:26:29 PM »

Perhaps we have the beginnings of a French cluster.  These two guys have a very close GD at 67 markers.

156432   Ozeme LaTour b.1869, Evageline Parish, Louisiana, USA (Peyrignac, Dordogne, France)   ZSEB7,

119179   Pierre Rideau, b.France   zz119179,

They have a pretty broad off-modal signature, mostly of medium speed markers:
YCAIIb=24 459a=8 448=18 GataH4=12 389ii-i=17 460=10 464=14,15,16,17

I hesitate to bring this up, but as an aside, their closest GD's within R-L21* but outside their own little cluster fall into a well known cluster that Ken Nordtvedt found that I characterize with 67 markers (he does it with 37) and I label R-L21-1012-A-Sc.   In fact, though any relationship with this cluster would be distant, it is striking in the purity of this coincidence.  

Here is what I mean.  Rideau and La Tour are by far the closer related to each other than anyone else in the R-L21* spreadsheet.  The next closest are this other cluster.  There are 30  R-L21-1012-A-Sc folks that are 48-53 of 67 with Rideau and La Tour.  There is no other cluster/variety or unassigned R-L21* person of any kind that infringes on this GD range of people 48-53 of 67 with the Frenchmen.  All 30 are R-L21-1012-A-Sc.

Indulge me, as I love to speculate. Could all of this mean Rideau/La Tour was  an early off-shoot of a common ancestor with R-L21-1012-A-Sc?  Also the implication for R-L21-1012-A-Sc is that the mutations for YCAIIb=24 and  GataH4=12 happened before the 531*=12 mutation.


EDIT: DYS531 is the correct STR, not what I had previously.

Sorry but i am not too good at remembering all the different cluster names.  What is 1012-A-Sc?
It overlaps with Ken N's R1b-Sc and Sc2 in particular.  It often referred to as the Scots Modal. 

Sorry, RMS2, this is what people know.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 05:27:33 PM by Mikewww » Logged

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« Reply #416 on: May 20, 2010, 09:20:27 PM »

There is a story behind the Rideau/ La Tour match that is in the process of being confirmed right now. I am not really at liberty to discuss it in detail, but their ancestry only goes as far as Louisiana. I put the two of them into contact with one another by recruiting them both, and that has worked out marvelously well for both of them in terms of solving a genealogical puzzle.
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« Reply #417 on: July 14, 2010, 10:11:01 PM »

We got our first Gascon R-L21 (and I did not recruit this one - he just showed up on his own): Gontaut, Ysearch HZJRZ, from Biron in Lot-et-Garonne, Aquitaine, France.
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« Reply #418 on: July 15, 2010, 06:58:01 PM »

A new R-L21 popped up on the Y-DNA Results page of the French Heritage Project today: Ballard, kit 47514, Ysearch KQ276.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=yresults

The most distant ancestor, as you can see from the French Heritage Project entry, came from Meurthe-et-Moselle, which is the region of Lorraine in which the city of Nancy is located.

The Ysearch entry lists a North American most distant ancestor, but Ballard is a French surname, so apparently some genealogical progress has been made since the Ysearch entry was created.

Ballard is not one of our recruits, so I am trying to recruit him for the R-L21 Plus Project. Hopefully, he will join soon.
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« Reply #419 on: July 15, 2010, 11:20:13 PM »

That's close to Switzerland, I believe.
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« Reply #420 on: July 15, 2010, 11:20:59 PM »

LOL its home sport is Rugby Union. Sounds like my kind of place!

Hi Neal,

Are you a rugger?  I wonder how many of the French National Team are L21?  I think there is more of a Cro-magnon component with most of those guys.

I love rugby union, especially Six Nations. Didn't France win the 2010 tournament?
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« Reply #421 on: July 16, 2010, 12:01:19 AM »

LOL its home sport is Rugby Union. Sounds like my kind of place!

Hi Neal,

Are you a rugger?  I wonder how many of the French National Team are L21?  I think there is more of a Cro-magnon component with most of those guys.

I love rugby union, especially Six Nations. Didn't France win the 2010 tournament?

I haven't been following it lately, but France is usually among the best.
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« Reply #422 on: July 16, 2010, 04:44:45 AM »

Yes, France won this year Six Nations. Rugby is very popular in the French Basque Country, Biarritz and Bayonne are very strong teams, especially Biarritz.
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« Reply #423 on: July 16, 2010, 07:02:24 PM »

That's close to Switzerland, I believe.

It's much closer to Germany and Luxembourg, actually, but still well inside eastern France.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #424 on: July 16, 2010, 07:30:45 PM »

That's close to Switzerland, I believe.

It's much closer to Germany and Luxembourg, actually, but still well inside eastern France.

Yeah, it is closer to Luxembourg. In fact, don't they speak the same dialect?
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