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Author Topic: R-L21* in France  (Read 44408 times)
rms2
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« Reply #125 on: September 09, 2009, 08:50:06 PM »

Rich-that map somehow brings home how sparse the sampling is even with a bit of extra money thrown at it and the sheer enormity of the task of ever getting distibution maps of clades across Europe.  It also shows how skewed to the north the French sample is if you simply consider the country as split into a northern and southern half.  I guess that simply must be down to migration patterns to the America's. The one downside if that contrary to my posting earlier it is perhaps too early to draw any conclusions on southern France.    

However, to be positive, I think to be able to say that of a sample of  13 (mainly northern) French R1b men, 7 (54%) were L21+ is pretty important.  It is important also to note that Brittany was deliberately excluded from the sample.  I think the conclusion must be that L21 is very common in the non-Breton parts of northern France, apparenly more common than in England unless I am mistaken.  

We started out trying to recruit people for testing who were P312+ and negative for everything but L21. We weren't able to recruit any of those, so we had to go with a random R1b1b2 sample. The only one of the bunch I was pretty sure would be L21 was Grenier, because he had a couple of fairly close matches at 37 markers who are L21+. For the rest, it was pretty much a shot in the dark.

So, to have over half of them turn out to be L21+ seems pretty positive. Of course, we still have three left to find out about.

But I think we can say pretty confidently that L21 is common in France, at least in Northern France.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 08:50:59 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #126 on: September 09, 2009, 08:56:33 PM »

We have 456 men in the R-L21 Plus Project who are tested L21+ already. Just think what we could do if each of us would give just $10 toward continental L21 testing!

We could test over 100 men for L21.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #127 on: September 09, 2009, 09:10:45 PM »

Alan,

If the early Irish come from Gaul, and the language always spoken in Ireland is Q-Celtic, but Gaulish is P-Celtic - I'm confused.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #128 on: September 10, 2009, 05:41:24 AM »

Probably ALL Celts spoke a Q-Celtic dialect originally.  The Q form is the original.  The P is an innovation.  So, it is possible that the connection between Gaul and Ireland was made while the Gauls or at least some of them were still speaking Q-Celtic forms.  The P-Celtic probably far later spead among and between elites who emulated each other.  In many areas the change from Q to P Celtic may have involved nothing more than the local Q-Celtic speaking elite emulating another particularly prestigious elite elsewhere (perhaps who they traded with) who spoke P-Celtic.  The model I like best is an early form of Celtic (Q) was spread throught a lot of western Europe including the isles in Neolithic times.  Then at some point, I suspect far later c. 600BCish the P-Celtic dialect spread among the local elites by contact and prestige emulation rather than invasion in most areas.  

The areas that didnt emulate the change from P to Q were those which had sort of fallen out of the elite interaction 'club' by 600BC - the Iberians and Irish.  That can be seen by a lack of Hallstatt D and early La Tene artifacts in those areas (c. 600-300BC) which contrasts with much of Gaul and England where such material is common.    By being isolated from the other elites for much of that 300 year period and indeed only slightly reconnected for the next 300 years after that, the Irish and Celt-Iberians (but not the Gauls and Britons) may have missed out on the Q-P shift that the other Celtic elites took up through emulation.  I think it was Koch who came up with this model but it or a  variation of it is widely accepted.  

Another thing is that today linguists think that the P-Q shift is not the important division in Cetic and that the division between the isles Insular Celtic and the continental Celtic is the major one.  The change from P to Q is a small one that came to divide Irish and British but there are far more features that link both together as Insular Celtic and at the same time divide both from continental Celtic. A lot of the general public are still hung up on the P-Q divide but linguists and archaeologists have decades ago moved on from that and the simplistic idea of 2 invasion waves corresponding with the two branches of Celtic.  

People who do not realise that the P-Q division is no longer thought to be important and that the 2 wave invasion idea has been dead and buried for decades tend to get puzzled by the way clades like L21 do not have peaks that correspond with and indeed cut across the P-Q divide.  However, once it is realised that linguists now see the Insular/Continental Celtic divide as more important than the P-Q one, it all makes sense. Also once severed of the need to link the Q-Celtic areas with each other, the fact that L21 links the isles (both the Q-Celtic Irish and P-Celtic Britons) with northern Gaul is not a problem, makes geographical sense and certainly best fits the archaeology of most periods.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 05:44:58 AM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #129 on: September 10, 2009, 06:07:44 AM »

Rich-that map somehow brings home how sparse the sampling is even with a bit of extra money thrown at it and the sheer enormity of the task of ever getting distibution maps of clades across Europe.  It also shows how skewed to the north the French sample is if you simply consider the country as split into a northern and southern half.  I guess that simply must be down to migration patterns to the America's. The one downside if that contrary to my posting earlier it is perhaps too early to draw any conclusions on southern France.    

However, to be positive, I think to be able to say that of a sample of  13 (mainly northern) French R1b men, 7 (54%) were L21+ is pretty important.  It is important also to note that Brittany was deliberately excluded from the sample.  I think the conclusion must be that L21 is very common in the non-Breton parts of northern France, apparenly more common than in England unless I am mistaken.  

We started out trying to recruit people for testing who were P312+ and negative for everything but L21. We weren't able to recruit any of those, so we had to go with a random R1b1b2 sample. The only one of the bunch I was pretty sure would be L21 was Grenier, because he had a couple of fairly close matches at 37 markers who are L21+. For the rest, it was pretty much a shot in the dark.

So, to have over half of them turn out to be L21+ seems pretty positive. Of course, we still have three left to find out about.

But I think we can say pretty confidently that L21 is common in France, at least in Northern France.

so it would be fair to say that this result was from:

 'L21 testing of a random sample of known R1b1b2 from the French Hertage Project that had not previously been subject to any SNP testing below M269'. 

I am trying to think of the fairest way of describing this 50-50 result which, although the sample is not huge, I think is pretty sensational in terms of our understanding of R1b clades.  If over half of French R1b1b2 is L21, that means that about a third of the French population is L21.  Thats higher than England is it not?  This is consistent with the apparent 50-50 hit rate for L21 during earlier French L21 testing and such a figure is totally incompatible with an isles origin of R1b, especially  when it is remembered that the test excluded Brittany.
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #130 on: September 10, 2009, 08:38:12 AM »

Thank you for clearing that up for me, Alan.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #131 on: September 10, 2009, 08:58:50 AM »

....  The P-Celtic probably far later spead among and between elites who emulated each other.  In many areas the change from Q to P Celtic may have involved nothing more than the local Q-Celtic speaking elite emulating another particularly prestigious elite elsewhere (perhaps who they traded with) who spoke P-Celtic.  The model I like best is an early form of Celtic (Q) was spread throught a lot of western Europe including the isles in Neolithic times.  Then at some point, I suspect far later c. 600BCish the P-Celtic dialect spread among the local elites by contact and prestige emulation rather than invasion in most areas.  
.....
 the fact that L21 links the isles (both the Q-Celtic Irish and P-Celtic Britons) with northern Gaul is not a problem, makes geographical sense and certainly best fits the archaeology of most periods.
The point about Insular Celtic differentiation from Continental being more significant than P vs Q Celtic does lead to the notion that P-Celtic innovations were adopted on top of the Insular (which originally must have been Q) base....  not a big invasion, people replacement kind of thing then.

I see in the maps below that the 6th century Brythonic (subset of P-Celtic) speaking community included the tip of Amorica (Brittany) as well as at least small part of Galicia in Spain.   That part is west of our Spanish L-21* finds but it is clearly near the northwest tip of the Iberian peninsula, which is Galicia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Britonia6hcentury.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

However, it is important to remember what Alan points out, L21* is common across both many Q-Celtic and P-Celtic speaking lands....  and also Latin based (French/Spanish), English and other Germanic speaking lands.
However, all of these places are Indo-European speaking, of course except the Basques.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2009, 09:09:29 AM by Mike » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #132 on: September 10, 2009, 12:21:30 PM »

It is believed by many linguists though that the Q-Celtic of the interior 'Celtiberians' was not shared by the tribes of the Atlantic and Biscay coasts of Iberia and that the latter areas may have had a 'Lusitanian' type dialect that is thought by some to be a third branch of the Celto-Italic family with features of both Celtic and Italic.  If the coastal tribes of Iberia spoke this and not Q-Celtic then its hard to see how there could be the sort of sea contact along the Atlantic along the lines sometimes suggested.  The Q-Celts of Iberia were non-coastal.  I think this is often ignored by those who wish to see a sea-linked Q-Celtic Atlantic sphere linking Iberia and Ireland.   
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #133 on: September 10, 2009, 12:41:44 PM »

Is there a particular reason why the Celts settled in mountainous/upland areas? Isn't the interior of Iberia and eastern France the same geographic type?
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #134 on: September 10, 2009, 05:39:52 PM »

Is there a particular reason why the Celts settled in mountainous/upland areas? Isn't the interior of Iberia and eastern France the same geographic type?
Correct me Hubert readers, but this what I remember of his viewpoint:

I was a little confused on the Iberians and Aquitani but I think he thought there was some link.   The Iberians were strong and had the good lands and held them.  The Celtics came into Iberia and moved into mountainous areas forming enclaves amongst the Iberians.  At some point there was a merging of cultures in some areas, hence the term Celti-Iberians.

At some later point in time Aquitani also moved south into Iberia from SW France.  Possibly they were pushed by Celtic expansions from Gaul.  Of course, some think the Basques are remnants of the Aquitani.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #135 on: September 10, 2009, 06:14:43 PM »

It is pretty well agreed by all that Aquitanian inscriptions are of an early form of Basque.  As for Iberian, scholars seems to think that it was not the same as Aquitanian/Basque but that there was possibly some sort of more distant language family link.  I personally think that it is likely that there is some sort of distant common root and that the origins of the Iberians and Basques are in some way related. 

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rms2
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« Reply #136 on: September 10, 2009, 08:07:31 PM »

so it would be fair to say that this result was from:

 'L21 testing of a random sample of known R1b1b2 from the French Hertage Project that had not previously been subject to any SNP testing below M269'. 

I am trying to think of the fairest way of describing this 50-50 result which, although the sample is not huge, I think is pretty sensational in terms of our understanding of R1b clades.  If over half of French R1b1b2 is L21, that means that about a third of the French population is L21.  Thats higher than England is it not?  This is consistent with the apparent 50-50 hit rate for L21 during earlier French L21 testing and such a figure is totally incompatible with an isles origin of R1b, especially  when it is remembered that the test excluded Brittany.

I think that is a fair way to put it.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #137 on: September 11, 2009, 08:32:22 AM »

so it would be fair to say that this result was from:

 'L21 testing of a random sample of known R1b1b2 from the French Hertage Project that had not previously been subject to any SNP testing below M269'. 

I am trying to think of the fairest way of describing this 50-50 result which, although the sample is not huge, I think is pretty sensational in terms of our understanding of R1b clades.  If over half of French R1b1b2 is L21, that means that about a third of the French population is L21.  Thats higher than England is it not?  This is consistent with the apparent 50-50 hit rate for L21 during earlier French L21 testing and such a figure is totally incompatible with an isles origin of R1b, especially  when it is remembered that the test excluded Brittany.

I think that is a fair way to put it.
Something that struck me when I read Hubert's "History of the Celts" (BTW, he was a Frenchman) was his description of the French language as what Latin would sound like it if spoken by a Celt.

Although I doubt if France was the place of origin for the Celtics, it (perhaps with a little of Germany and Switzerland added) undoubtedly was their base for their "golden age."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Hubert
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #138 on: September 11, 2009, 11:23:08 AM »

I noticed that the ElectricScotland website has the entire book "The Greatness and Decline of the Celts" By Henri Hubert (1934)

http://www.electricscotland.com/HISTORY/celts/
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #139 on: September 11, 2009, 07:19:54 PM »

I recruited another Frenchman (Dupuis) for L21 testing today, so now we have four awaiting L21 results:

Dupuis (4NFFY) - La Chaussée, France (between Poitiers and Tours)
Dushane (Duchesne, V66HP) - Tours, France
Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)
Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)


Results for Lemaire and Londry are slightly overdue. Dushane's results aren't due until October 12. Dupuis' order is brand new, so it could be a couple of months before we know about that one.

Check 'em in YSearch and see what you think.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 07:23:25 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #140 on: September 12, 2009, 01:47:02 PM »

I would think that Dupuis, Dushane, Londry will test L21+
Dushane maybe a Germanic or Central European origin but the DYS392=15 and 391=10 will keep him M269+.

We'll see.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #141 on: September 12, 2009, 02:13:04 PM »

I would think that Dupuis, Dushane, Londry will test L21+
Dushane maybe a Germanic or Central European origin but the DYS392=15 and 391=10 will keep him M269+.

We'll see.

I hope they all are, but Lemaire is hard to call, since he has only 12 markers (which is why you did not comment on him, I guess).

Some of those I thought would be L21- have turned out to be L21+, though, and some I thought were probably L21+ turned out to be L21-. Two examples are Mireault, whom I really kind of thought would be L21-, and Simoneau, whom I thought would probably be L21+. Their results were the exact reverse of what I expected.

I appreciate you taking a stab at predicting. It makes this thread more interesting and the waiting for results a bit easier.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 02:14:56 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mark Jost
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« Reply #142 on: September 12, 2009, 02:20:47 PM »

I would think that Dupuis, Dushane, Londry will test L21+
Dushane maybe a Germanic or Central European origin but the DYS392=15 and 391=10 will keep him M269+.

We'll see.

I meant to state that Lemaire will test L21+ not Dushane.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
rms2
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« Reply #143 on: September 12, 2009, 02:37:04 PM »

I would think that Dupuis, Dushane, Londry will test L21+
Dushane maybe a Germanic or Central European origin but the DYS392=15 and 391=10 will keep him M269+.

We'll see.

I meant to state that Lemaire will test L21+ not Dushane.

Aha!

So, your prediction is that Dupuis, Lemaire and Londry will be L21+ and Dushane will be L21-, then?

I think you are the first in this thread to be bold enough to make a prediction.

But that is good; it makes things fun!
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #144 on: September 12, 2009, 03:04:01 PM »

Well anything can happen but here is a ysearch on the four comparing to some modals.

http://tinyurl.com/4NFFY-ATSZX-HY4QH-V66HP
 
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
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« Reply #145 on: September 12, 2009, 04:27:14 PM »

Well anything can happen but here is a ysearch on the four comparing to some modals.

http://tinyurl.com/4NFFY-ATSZX-HY4QH-V66HP
 


Okay, you've got me wondering how the Leinster, Erainn and Colla Uais modals come into play here.
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Mark Jost
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« Reply #146 on: September 12, 2009, 05:34:06 PM »

The time frame of these groups were pre-history which is what I would think of using to compare allele values with. That’s all. All we have is a few key modals other that WAM which I havent memorized so I plug any haplotype into a group of modals to compare with. Thats why I felt that Dushane will be L21-.

If French Haplotypes appear to have more of a prehistory makeup (-1 mutations) then it can help form a timeline. I believe in the high probability of a Continental origin of L21.
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148326
Pos: Z245 L459 L21 DF13**
Neg: DF23 L513 L96 L144 Z255 Z253 DF21 DF41 (Z254 P66 P314.2 M37 M222  L563 L526 L226 L195 L193 L192.1 L159.2 L130 DF63 DF5 DF49)
WTYNeg: L555 L371 (L9/L10 L370 L302/L319.1 L554 L564 L577 P69 L626 L627 L643 L679)
alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #147 on: September 12, 2009, 07:14:42 PM »


dushane does look odd man out in str terms.
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rms2
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« Reply #148 on: September 12, 2009, 07:45:51 PM »


dushane does look odd man out in str terms.

It turns out Mark was right. Dushane is L21-. His result came in today (which was odd, it being Saturday).

Well, I told you all this stuff was random. I am not stuffing the candidate list with sure things here or shooting fish in a barrel.

I haven't been able to manage that. :-)

Wish I was good enough at picking out French R-L21* haplotypes to do that!
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #149 on: September 13, 2009, 07:48:39 AM »

It will be interesting to line up the French L21 STRs and see if there is any sort of pattern.  I just dont really dabble in STRs so I wouldnt be much use at it. 
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