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rms2
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« Reply #100 on: September 07, 2009, 10:46:25 AM »

I also think we may not get another useful SNP downstream of L21, but I could be wrong about that. Honestly, even though I think the L21 WTY is a worthy effort, when I think of all the money being poured in that direction that could be used to do more continental L21 testing, it frustrates me. Just think of how many L21 tests the price of a single WTY could provide!

Looking at the R-L21* European Continent Map (http://tinyurl.com/mstfzn), it seems possible to draw a straight line from the group clustered between Ulm and Köln in Germany to Northern France and the bulk of the R-L21* there. It looks as though a possible path went through the triangle there formed by the border of France, Germany and Belgium, with Luxembourg as the approximate apex.

Sometimes clicking on "Terrain" makes patterns on the Google map easier to see, since it gets rid of all the clutter that appears on the political map.

But, anyway, it seems to me we are still in the very early stages of learning about L21, and there may be future developments on the map that we do not now expect.

I do think L21 must have been a major component in the y-dna of the ancient Gauls, but, like you, I'm not claiming it was the only one.

I also think the very obvious similarities between the words, Gaul, Gael, Galatian, and Celt are more than mere coincidence.


« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 10:51:34 AM by rms2 » Logged

alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #101 on: September 07, 2009, 11:51:18 AM »

If L21 crossed over to the isles from the continent within say 1000 years or less of the SNP coming into existence, should we expect a useful SNP to split it i.e. one that also straddles the continent and the isles? 

Thats clearly an impossible scenario for those who think L21 happened in the isles.  They are presumably hoping that an SNP falls between S116 and L21 and its distribution somehow clarrifiess things.  Given the very similar MRCA variance dates for S116 and L21, what is the chances of that?  Its a very narrow window of opportunity and  think there is very little chance. 

For those who think that L21 is continental in origin, they may be looking for SNPs downstream from L21 that are also known on the continent and hope to establish a trail from that.  While that is not impossible by any means (far more likely that an SNP between S116 and L21 IMO), I cant see it producing a mind blowing result given that continental L21 is overwhelmingly concentrated into northern France and adjacent areas of west Germany.  If you believe in a continental origin for L21, its pretty clear that L21 must have got to the isles from those areas.  In fact, it is clear that coastal tribes or clans within sight of (or certainly close to and very familiar with) the British Isles and who had some sort of naval ability must have been involved (the French coast is the closest to Britain and by far the closest to Ireland).   So, I would be fairly sure that isles L21 set off from the north French coast, northern France also apparently being the place where it is most common on the continent by some distance.

I think we probably have already found the magical SNP that left a cross-channel trail from NW Euripe to the isles. Its kind of weird that it wasnt considered a champagne moment when it started to become clear L21 had left a sort of trail to the isles.
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« Reply #102 on: September 07, 2009, 01:11:17 PM »

. . . Its kind of weird that it wasnt considered a champagne moment when it started to become clear L21 had left a sort of trail to the isles.

I think the reason is that there is a lot of partisanship among those of us who are interested in "Deep Ancestry". There is a keen interest (that may be putting it mildly) in claiming this or that heroic group as exclusively one's own ancestors. That, I think, explains the desire of some to restrict L21 to the British Isles and paint it as "aboriginal" there. One has to keep L21 off the Continent if he wants to keep the Celts all to himself and to his own non-L21 haplogroup.

Then there are those who want to find a really geographically restricted SNP so that possession of it immediately identifies one as having ancestry in that specific, circumscribed area: you know, THE Irish SNP, or THE Scottish SNP, etc., or least THE British Isles SNP.

A contributing factor is the big head start clades like U106 (now divided into its own subclades) and U152 (also divided into subclades now) have enjoyed, which has enabled their partisans to stake out impressive ancestral claims, despite the fact that in the days when they had the field pretty much to themselves 60% or more of R1b1b2 was known to be something other than U106+ or U152+.

Now L21 is in the awkward position of having to elbow its way into the picture, hampered by a poor economy that no doubt has slowed dna testing and by the huge British Isles bias in the database.

We are also laboring against the "Celto-Sceptic" position, which has a political component to it in the British Isles and maintains that there really were no "true Celts" in the Isles, that Celtic languages and culture arrived by means of a mysterious "cultural package".

Then there is the whole "immobilist" position - similar to that of the Celto-Sceptics but less caustic - which seems to argue that people don't move much or haven't moved much since the Mesolithic Period.

All of these things militate against belief in the arrival in the British Isles of an intrusive y-dna haplogroup or subclade from the Continent that eventually came to be numerically dominant.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 01:17:37 PM by rms2 » Logged

Mike Walsh
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« Reply #103 on: September 07, 2009, 05:10:31 PM »

. . . Its kind of weird that it wasnt considered a champagne moment when it started to become clear L21 had left a sort of trail to the isles.
....
(1)There is a keen interest (that may be putting it mildly) in claiming this or that heroic group as exclusively one's own ancestors. ....
(2) Then there are those who want to find a really geographically restricted SNP so that possession of it immediately identifies one as having ancestry in that specific, circumscribed area: you know, THE Irish SNP, or THE Scottish SNP, etc., or least THE British Isles SNP. ....
(3) "Celto-Sceptic" position, which has a political component to it in the British Isles and maintains that there really were no "true Celts" in the Isles, ....
(4) Then there is the whole "immobilist" position - similar to that of the Celto-Sceptics but less caustic - which seems to argue that people don't move much or haven't moved much since the Mesolithic Period.
....
I agree that all four perspectives impede acceptance of L21+'s apparent trail.  I don't really understand the positions of pure bias like 1, 2 and 3 since I would like to think most people want the truth, no matter what it is.  I think #4, the "immobilist" viewpoint is the one that impedes progress the most.   We are presented with so many "modern day" haplogroup distribution maps that they mesmirize one's thinking.  You see all of that high L21 relative frequency the further west you get, you tend to forget how greatly history (which we do know) may have impacted it, which even makes it harder to perceive how prehistory (which we really don't know) may have impacte distributions.

Without DNA evidence, it'd have been very hard to convince me that a lot of Europeans came from SW and Central Asia.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #104 on: September 07, 2009, 06:21:51 PM »

I think people should ignore absolute numbers (which will always favour the isles) and try to conentrate on percentages of L21 per head in populations.  Argiedude had made a start although I think he underestimates L21 which I think will prove to be at least 20 percent of the French male population and perhaps 30-40% in the north.
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rms2
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« Reply #105 on: September 08, 2009, 08:20:58 PM »

Updating the list to add yet another French R-L21*, Mireault (ancestral surname Amirault):

1. Bontron-Major - Montussaint, Doubs, Franche-Comte, France
2. Cartier - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
3. Chartier - Quebec, Canada
4. Delahoussaye - Paris, Île-de-France, France
5. Dubois - Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, Haute-Normandie, France
6. Dussault (Dusceau) - La Rochelle, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, France
7. Gery - Morlaix, Finistère, Bretagne, France
8. Gignoux - Grenoble, Isere, Rhone-Alpes, France
9. Grenier - Northern France (exact city or town unknown)
10. Hamon - Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt, Mayenne, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
11. Huet - Dol-de-Bretagne, Ille-et-Vilaine, Bretagne, France
12. Le Bras - Brasparts, Finistère, Bretagne, France
13. Le Com - Chateauneuf-du-Faou, Finistère, Bretagne, France
14. Mireault (Amirault) - Tours, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France
15. Mylott (Millot) - Villers-le-Sec, Haute-Marne, Champagne-Ardenne, France
16. Rotrou- Cloyes-sur-le-Loir, Eure-et-Loir, Centre, France
17. Sicher - Drain, Maine-et-Loire, Pays-de-la-Loire, France
18. Turpin - Brécey, Manche, Basse-Normandie, France
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #106 on: September 09, 2009, 03:31:18 AM »

So that seems to only leave the following from this French L21 testing stint:

2.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
3.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)

Even if these two come in positive, they will just confirm the existing distribution.  I think when they come in, stats and a map with dots showing both positive and negative results from at least this round of L21 testing would be more informative than the L21 map alone.  The stats would be (even if the sample has been modest) one of the first ever chances to make statements of the percentages of L21 positive/negative percentages based on (sort of) blind and random testing of the R1b in a country.  I think that would be the biggest contributions to our understanding of continental L21 to date.   

I suspect the French and especially the northern French L21 statistic will be impressive.  A map showing both the hits and misses of L21 testing in France would be very useful as it will indicate where absense of L21 may be real and where it may be simply because no samples came from a particular part of France.  For example, I suspect the void in the inland centre of France and perhaps the extreme NE may not be real but the gap in L21 in the south is real.  Only a map showing both the hits and misses will demostrate whether that is fair comment or not. 
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« Reply #107 on: September 09, 2009, 12:30:59 PM »

How would one divide France into major regions that might have some genetic correlation?  Seems like the Northwest/Normandie part of France should be separated from Paris eastward.  Here is what I have now.

North Atlantic France:
Brittany (Rennes)
Pays de la Loire (Nantes)
Poitou-Charentes (Poitiers)

Old Aquitane / Southwest France:
Aquitane (Bordeaux)
Midi-Pyrénées (Toulouse)
Languedoc-Roussillon

North/Northeast France:
Basse-Normandie (Caen)
Haute-Normandie (Rouen)
Nord-Pas-de-Calais (Lille)
Picardy (Amiens)
Île-de-France (Paris)
Centre (Orléans)
Borgogne (Dijon)
Champagne-Ardenne (Châlons-en-Champagne)
Lorraine (Metz)
Alsace (Strasbourg)
Franche-Comté

Mountainous Southeast France:
Rhône-Alpes (Lyon)
Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur (Marseille)
Auvergne (Clermont-Ferrand)
Limousin (Limoges)

Corsica?  Seems like it must stand alone.  May be a moot point since no R-L21* there yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regions_of_France
http://bonjourlafrance.net/france-map/map-of-french-regions.htm
http://www.terresdeurope.net/en/iso_album/france_reliefs.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Langues_de_la_France1.gif
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2009, 01:18:24 PM »

How would one divide France into major regions that might have some genetic correlation?  Seems like the Northwest/Normandie part of France should be separated from Paris eastward

I suspect that the relative lack to the east of Paris may not be real.  I think few were sampled there.  That is exactly why I would like to see a map or at least a list showing both the hits and misses of the recent round of French L21 testing.  I think that very very few have been tested from the real NE of France.  

Another possibility is that the lack in the NE of France is real and that L21 is only big in Celtic Gaul/Gallia Celtica and was scarce in all of Belgic Gaul, which included France NE of Paris as well as Belgium etc.  For a map of the divisions of Gaul see Wikipedia under Gaul and you will see what I mean.  Celtica excludes the area to the north east of Paris but includes the rest of the north and a chunk of the east and aso south/west Germany.  The Celtica division of Gaul is very similar to the high L21 zone of north-central/north-west and eastern France and west Germany.  The idea the Belgi may be low in L21 may be supported by the apparent relative lack in Belgium and its neighbours. Southern Gaul was once dominated by Ligurians and Aquitanian Gaul was probably a real mix of prot-basques, other non-Celts,, southern Gauls etc and may have been quite different.  I think there is a strong case that L21 was very strong in Gallia Celtica but perhaps not in the other Belgic, Aquitanian and Ligurian areas of Gaul.
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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #109 on: September 09, 2009, 01:25:50 PM »

To follow on, it would be surpising if the semi-ethnic divisions the Romans noted in Gaul were not reflected in the clades.  These observations included:

1. A resemblance of the Belgi with 'German' tribes across the Rhine (German need not have meant Germanic speaking).  That would seem to be consistent with a lack of L21 in both Belgica and the area of Germany east of the Rhine mouth area. The Belgic part of Britain are also lower in L21 than the rest of the isles.  The difference of the old Belgic and Celtic Gaul areas would have been further emphasised when the main movements of the Germanic Franks occupied a very similar area as old Belgic Gaul, possibly further dropping the L21 count there.

2. A resemblance between the Aquitani and the Iberians.  That may be reflected in the apparent lack of L21 and perhaps high S116.

This leaves by default the Celtic Gauls who like the non-Belgic Britons and Irish seem to have a very high L21.  
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NealtheRed
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« Reply #110 on: September 09, 2009, 03:10:17 PM »

What about the Alpine areas of Germany and Switzerland? Or is that included with Eastern France?
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« Reply #111 on: September 09, 2009, 03:38:04 PM »

...
This leaves by default the Celtic Gauls who like the non-Belgic Britons and Irish seem to have a very high L21.  
...
Henri Hubert readers, how does that correspond with his perspective of the Goidels?

My understanding is that the farming/land usage situation of ancient Rhine-Westphalia was similar to Ireland and that Hubert thought the Goidels migrated thru the current Netherland and Beligum area into Britain from the east/southeast.  Do I have that right on Hubert's perspective?

Did Belgae later on take over those areas?

Map of Gaul and the tribes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gaul,_1st_century_BC.gif
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« Reply #112 on: September 09, 2009, 03:40:21 PM »

To follow on, it would be surpising if the semi-ethnic divisions the Romans.....
This leaves by default the Celtic Gauls who like the non-Belgic Britons and Irish seem to have a very high L21.  
Which begs a long elusive question?  What major subclades did Belgae carry with them?  R-U106 or U152 along with some variants I?

.... and/or different specific "types" (clusters/undiscovered subclades) of R-L21*?
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« Reply #113 on: September 09, 2009, 03:46:52 PM »

Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?
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« Reply #114 on: September 09, 2009, 04:13:30 PM »

Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?
My reading of Hubert is that he considered the Fir Bolg a "late-comer" to Ireland, after the Goedels.  He considered them men with bags, or men that wore pants, and yes, he thought they were Belgae.
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« Reply #115 on: September 09, 2009, 04:20:10 PM »

Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?
My reading of Hubert is that he considered the Fir Bolg a "late-comer" to Ireland, after the Goedels.  He considered them men with bags, or men that wore pants, and yes, he thought they were Belgae.
There is not much R-U106 in Ireland, correct?  http://www.geocities.com/thurlowons/R1b1c9/U106_pop_density.html
If so, then I'd think U-106 was not carried with the Belgae to any significant degree.   

Although there is obviously a bunch of U106 in modern Belgium and the Netherlands.  Maybe they are the late-comers to that vicinity.
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« Reply #116 on: September 09, 2009, 04:25:13 PM »

I know the Laigin tribe supposedly has connections with the Belgae, but it is more likely (due to the matches in the Leinster cluster connected to the early Laigin chieftains) that they were Gaulish.

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« Reply #117 on: September 09, 2009, 06:39:26 PM »

Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?
My reading of Hubert is that he considered the Fir Bolg a "late-comer" to Ireland, after the Goedels.  He considered them men with bags, or men that wore pants, and yes, he thought they were Belgae.

I think that the For Bolg may represent a memory of a very late iron age intrusion of small numbers of Belgic refugess but there are no real classic Belgic archaeological traces in Ireland so its only the comparison of the names Bolg and Belgi we have as evidence.  If this is a genuine echo  I would still  suspect thery were late and small in numbers.

I also think that O'Rahilly made a big mistake either deciding or at least agreeing with a correlation of Errain with the Fir Bolg.  I think that is almost certainly wrong.  More recent studies (I think ti was Koch) link the Errain name with the name of the island and suggest the name kind of means'Ireland people' possibly indicating an indigenous or very old population srata.  For some reason this Errain and Fir Bolg became conflated and thus the idea of an ancient indigenous stratum was transferred to the Fir Bolg but I think originally the Fir Bolg  were in fact a late strand like the Fir Domnain=Dumnoni and very much distinct from the much older Errain. I think the the evidence is that any genetic impact of the Belgi would be small.  I think many of the tribes described as For Bolg in Medeival irish literature were really Errain. 
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« Reply #118 on: September 09, 2009, 06:52:29 PM »

No, the links of the Leinstermen are with the Fir Domnain or Dumnoni, an Irish Sea British tribe and there are also legendary links with Gaul, usually thought to be NW Gaul.  I dont think there are links with the Belgi unless you are thinking of the Manapi tribe that Ptolemy's map places in Leinster.  They had a sound-alike tribe on the Rhine in Belgic Gaul but nobody is sure if this indicates a real connection.  No Belgic material has ever been found in Ireland so anything must have been small scale.

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« Reply #119 on: September 09, 2009, 06:55:26 PM »

The link between the Belgae and Leinstermen was of course Rahilly's idea. That was why I mentioned it; I also read that the idea was not really backed by empirical evidence.
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« Reply #120 on: September 09, 2009, 07:10:52 PM »

Aren't the ancient Fir Bolg tribes of Ireland supposedly related to the Belgae?

 I understand that there is no real haplotype (or phenotype according to old books) differences between the Germanic (Flemish) and French (Walloon) speakers in Belgium.  So, I suspect EITHER that the Frankish invasions did not have a huge genetic impact on the Romanised Gallo-Belgic population they came to dominate.  OR that the various Celtic and Germanic populations on both sides of the lower Rhine were very similar anyway.   So, my best guess is that Belgium would still give us be a pretty good idea of what the Belgi haplogroups were.  I suspect they have a mix of all clades including S116*, S28, S21 and L21.  I actually have a sneaking suspicion it may be the most diverse part of Gaul in terms of R1b clades. Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge could discuss the Belgium R1b situation.
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« Reply #121 on: September 09, 2009, 07:38:15 PM »

Okay, I made a quick Google map of the kind Alan mentioned a few posts back, showing the results of our recent spate of French L21 testing. Green means L21+. Red means L21-.

http://tinyurl.com/npebew

Of the 13 tests, seven came out L21+ and six were L21-. In Northern France (if I am right in what I am delimiting as Northern France) the results were six L21+ to four L21-.

Except for Simoneau, who ordered a Deep Clade-R and is R-P312*, we don't know what the L21- guys are, R-P312* , R-SRY2627, R-U152 (of some kind), or R-U106 (of some kind).

One should also look at France on the R-P312* Map (http://tinyurl.com/nfyrto) and on the R-L21* European Continent Map (http://tinyurl.com/mzsypp).

Remember, too, that there are other kinds of R1b1b2 in France than just R-L21* and R-P312*. Both are well represented there, but I don't think it's exactly a slam dunk. We need to look at how all the R1b1b2 clades are distributed and their frequencies in France.


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alan trowel hands.
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« Reply #122 on: September 09, 2009, 07:49:54 PM »

Its a shame people do not generally realise that O'Rahilly wrote his book fairly early in the development of Celtic studies in Ireland and his book should be seen as a beginning not a final statement on the subject.  Unfortunately all the progress since O'Rahilly is contained in obscure academic journals and not a single book.  I think that in itself explains why such an old book still has prominence as a text.  In reality, his invasion scheme was not taken seriously at all by historians and archaeologists for very long.  I think it was essentially rejected promptly by most academics and brushed under the carpet except as a footnote.  Although he rejected or reinterpreted much of the book of invasions, he still felt compelled to maintian part of its basic framework (such as 'the Gaels' being the last invaders) in a way that scholars since have not.  

The idea of a wave of late invading Gaels seems to have been totally swept away for at least 30 years in credible academic circles and I think had little support for some time even before that.   In general it seems that the idea that Gaelic was the first (and last) type of Celtic spoken in Ireland to any significant degree is the majority view.  The idea that the first Celticisation of Ireland happened due to an Iron Age invasion is out of fashion,and deeper time scenarios and/or more subtle mechanisms for the coming of Celtic language are much more popular.  
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« Reply #123 on: September 09, 2009, 07:56:43 PM »

So that seems to only leave the following from this French L21 testing stint:

2.  Londry (ATSZX) - La Ventrouze, France (northeast of Le Mans)
3.  Lemaire (HY4QH) - Marquemont, France (north of Paris)

Even if these two come in positive, they will just confirm the existing distribution.  I think when they come in, stats and a map with dots showing both positive and negative results from at least this round of L21 testing would be more informative than the L21 map alone.  The stats would be (even if the sample has been modest) one of the first ever chances to make statements of the percentages of L21 positive/negative percentages based on (sort of) blind and random testing of the R1b in a country.  I think that would be the biggest contributions to our understanding of continental L21 to date.   

I suspect the French and especially the northern French L21 statistic will be impressive.  A map showing both the hits and misses of L21 testing in France would be very useful as it will indicate where absense of L21 may be real and where it may be simply because no samples came from a particular part of France.  For example, I suspect the void in the inland centre of France and perhaps the extreme NE may not be real but the gap in L21 in the south is real.  Only a map showing both the hits and misses will demostrate whether that is fair comment or not. 

In addition to Londry and Lemaire, we have a third Frenchman in the "L21 Pending" category, Dushane (original spelling Duchesne), whose ancestor came from Tours.

His result isn't due until October 12 (Batch 323).

If we are blessed with some more donations, maybe we could try to fill in the gaps in the map.
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« Reply #124 on: September 09, 2009, 08:38:52 PM »

Rich-that map somehow brings home how sparse the sampling is even with a bit of extra money thrown at it and the sheer enormity of the task of ever getting distibution maps of clades across Europe.  It also shows how skewed to the north the French sample is if you simply consider the country as split into a northern and southern half.  I guess that simply must be down to migration patterns to the America's. The one downside if that contrary to my posting earlier it is perhaps too early to draw any conclusions on southern France.    

However, to be positive, I think to be able to say that of a sample of  13 (mainly northern) French R1b men, 7 (54%) were L21+ is pretty important.  It is important also to note that Brittany was deliberately excluded from the sample.  I think the conclusion must be that L21 is very common in the non-Breton parts of northern France, apparenly more common than in England unless I am mistaken.  
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 08:40:26 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
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