World Families Forums - Age V88 split off

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 20, 2014, 01:37:38 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b General (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Age V88 split off
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Age V88 split off  (Read 506 times)
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« on: November 02, 2012, 04:33:30 PM »

This thread seems to indicate that the V88 line split a huge depth of time ago from the ancestors of the other branches

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?42-R-M343-Phylogeny&s=ea14194e5abf72e6f802ad59347dc3e2

Am I understanding this correctly.  V88 has always seemed tricky to explain but this seems to imply it is an incredibly distant cousin of both M269 and M73 with no common ancestor back to the Palaeolithic.  I take it if M343 is thought to be 16000 years olf then the common ancestor between V88 and M269/M73 one step above is even older.  That really is an extremely old split if I am understanding this right.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 05:02:40 PM by alan trowel hands. » Logged
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 06:04:41 PM »

This thread seems to indicate that the V88 line split a huge depth of time ago from the ancestors of the other branches

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?42-R-M343-Phylogeny&s=ea14194e5abf72e6f802ad59347dc3e2

Am I understanding this correctly.  V88 has always seemed tricky to explain but this seems to imply it is an incredibly distant cousin of both M269 and M73 with no common ancestor back to the Palaeolithic.  I take it if M343 is thought to be 16000 years olf then the common ancestor between V88 and M269/M73 one step above is even older.  That really is an extremely old split if I am understanding this right.

The only solid stake in ground that I've seen that went beyond STR diversity to SNP branch length counting is the 2008 Karafet. They came up with the best estimate of 18.5K ybp for the R1 TMRCA, so R1b (M343) must be younger and then R1b-V88 must be younger yet.  The error ranges are quite wide so I don't think any can nail this too precisely.

The pre V88 lineage branch off apparently was before L389 and P297 so that is quite a while ago.
Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2012, 07:08:39 PM »

This thread seems to indicate that the V88 line split a huge depth of time ago from the ancestors of the other branches

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?42-R-M343-Phylogeny&s=ea14194e5abf72e6f802ad59347dc3e2

Am I understanding this correctly.  V88 has always seemed tricky to explain but this seems to imply it is an incredibly distant cousin of both M269 and M73 with no common ancestor back to the Palaeolithic.  I take it if M343 is thought to be 16000 years olf then the common ancestor between V88 and M269/M73 one step above is even older.  That really is an extremely old split if I am understanding this right.

The only solid stake in ground that I've seen that went beyond STR diversity to SNP branch length counting is the 2008 Karafet. They came up with the best estimate of 18.5K ybp for the R1 TMRCA, so R1b (M343) must be younger and then R1b-V88 must be younger yet.  The error ranges are quite wide so I don't think any can nail this too precisely.

The pre V88 lineage branch off apparently was before L389 and P297 so that is quite a while ago.

I thought that interclades had shown that even M269 and M73 split a very long time ago and they are several nodes closer.  I assume some sort of interclades have been done between V88 and the rest to get an idea of the age of the split.  I suppose I am most interested in the split age (what Ken calls the nodeman) between V88 and the other great branch rather than the age of the real take-off of V88 derived lineages which I understand was far later.  I am interested in this because V88 has tended to be presented as a puzzling element of R1b but its not really puzzling at all if they split way back in the Palaeolithic given the enormous climatic changes that happened since then.  The way I see it is once you get back that far in time towards the ice age, the improvements in climate after, the older and younger Dryas, farming etc then the apparently very different distributions of branches like V88 and even closer cousings like M269 and M73 becomes almost inevitable rather than odd.  The other thing of course is these lines leading from the common ancestor to 'Mr M269' or 'Mr M73' are extremely long  with 1000s of years between the deep time common ancestor and the much later guy like Mr M269 etc.  These were lines that were at best ticking over for a very long time before the much later explosions.  To expect them to be archaeologically visible or to have a distinct archaeological culture of their own (rather than being just a clan or so in a mixed group) in their millenia as barely surviving lineages may be the wrong way of looking at it.  It is only when they hit the big time and clearly are massively expanding and have their hands on some resources that we can expect archaeological matching to be likely. 
Logged
Mike Walsh
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2963


WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2012, 07:56:07 PM »

This thread seems to indicate that the V88 line split a huge depth of time ago from the ancestors of the other branches

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?42-R-M343-Phylogeny&s=ea14194e5abf72e6f802ad59347dc3e2

Am I understanding this correctly.  V88 has always seemed tricky to explain but this seems to imply it is an incredibly distant cousin of both M269 and M73 with no common ancestor back to the Palaeolithic.  I take it if M343 is thought to be 16000 years olf then the common ancestor between V88 and M269/M73 one step above is even older.  That really is an extremely old split if I am understanding this right.

The only solid stake in ground that I've seen that went beyond STR diversity to SNP branch length counting is the 2008 Karafet. They came up with the best estimate of 18.5K ybp for the R1 TMRCA, so R1b (M343) must be younger and then R1b-V88 must be younger yet.  The error ranges are quite wide so I don't think any can nail this too precisely.

The pre V88 lineage branch off apparently was before L389 and P297 so that is quite a while ago.

I thought that interclades had shown that even M269 and M73 split a very long time ago and they are several nodes closer.  I assume some sort of interclades have been done between V88 and the rest to get an idea of the age of the split.  I suppose I am most interested in the split age (what Ken calls the nodeman) between V88 and the other great branch rather than the age of the real take-off of V88 derived lineages which I understand was far later.  I am interested in this because V88 has tended to be presented as a puzzling element of R1b but its not really puzzling at all if they split way back in the Palaeolithic given the enormous climatic changes that happened since then.  The way I see it is once you get back that far in time towards the ice age, the improvements in climate after, the older and younger Dryas, farming etc then the apparently very different distributions of branches like V88 and even closer cousings like M269 and M73 becomes almost inevitable rather than odd.  The other thing of course is these lines leading from the common ancestor to 'Mr M269' or 'Mr M73' are extremely long  with 1000s of years between the deep time common ancestor and the much later guy like Mr M269 etc.  These were lines that were at best ticking over for a very long time before the much later explosions.  To expect them to be archaeologically visible or to have a distinct archaeological culture of their own (rather than being just a clan or so in a mixed group) in their millenia as barely surviving lineages may be the wrong way of looking at it.  It is only when they hit the big time and clearly are massively expanding and have their hands on some resources that we can expect archaeological matching to be likely.  

Look at Vineviz's chart. The split of V88 away from what would be M269 happened early on. I don't know the timing, but I would guess it would be pre-Neolithic... at least pre-European Neolithic. V88 itself, may not be that old, though.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 08:09:44 PM by Mikewww » Logged

R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
alan trowel hands.
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2012


« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2012, 08:07:17 PM »

This thread seems to indicate that the V88 line split a huge depth of time ago from the ancestors of the other branches

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?42-R-M343-Phylogeny&s=ea14194e5abf72e6f802ad59347dc3e2

Am I understanding this correctly.  V88 has always seemed tricky to explain but this seems to imply it is an incredibly distant cousin of both M269 and M73 with no common ancestor back to the Palaeolithic.  I take it if M343 is thought to be 16000 years olf then the common ancestor between V88 and M269/M73 one step above is even older.  That really is an extremely old split if I am understanding this right.

The only solid stake in ground that I've seen that went beyond STR diversity to SNP branch length counting is the 2008 Karafet. They came up with the best estimate of 18.5K ybp for the R1 TMRCA, so R1b (M343) must be younger and then R1b-V88 must be younger yet.  The error ranges are quite wide so I don't think any can nail this too precisely.

The pre V88 lineage branch off apparently was before L389 and P297 so that is quite a while ago.

I thought that interclades had shown that even M269 and M73 split a very long time ago and they are several nodes closer.  I assume some sort of interclades have been done between V88 and the rest to get an idea of the age of the split.  I suppose I am most interested in the split age (what Ken calls the nodeman) between V88 and the other great branch rather than the age of the real take-off of V88 derived lineages which I understand was far later.  I am interested in this because V88 has tended to be presented as a puzzling element of R1b but its not really puzzling at all if they split way back in the Palaeolithic given the enormous climatic changes that happened since then.  The way I see it is once you get back that far in time towards the ice age, the improvements in climate after, the older and younger Dryas, farming etc then the apparently very different distributions of branches like V88 and even closer cousings like M269 and M73 becomes almost inevitable rather than odd.  The other thing of course is these lines leading from the common ancestor to 'Mr M269' or 'Mr M73' are extremely long  with 1000s of years between the deep time common ancestor and the much later guy like Mr M269 etc.  These were lines that were at best ticking over for a very long time before the much later explosions.  To expect them to be archaeologically visible or to have a distinct archaeological culture of their own (rather than being just a clan or so in a mixed group) in their millenia as barely surviving lineages may be the wrong way of looking at it.  It is only when they hit the big time and clearly are massively expanding and have their hands on some resources that we can expect archaeological matching to be likely.  

Look at Vineviz's chart. The split of V88 away from what would be M269 happened early on. I don't know the timing, but I would guess it would be pre-Neolithic... at least pre-European Neolithic. V88 itself, may not be that old, though.

I think the significance of really very old splits between the future M269/M73 lines on the one hand and the future V88 line is important.  It seems from VV's comments to be placing the marker downstream that is shared by the M268 and M73 lines as c. 14000BC so I would assume this would make the common marker between them and V88 one step further upstream even older, somewhere between then and the 16500BC date for R1.  Even if it is little older than 14,000BC, the period between then and the late Neolithic saw incredible changes from the LGM to the warm up phases then the Dryas relapses, the origin of farming, the origin of cattle pastoralism etc, not to mention some major aridity events within the Neolithic.  Its almost unimaginable just how drastic all these changes would have had on the R1b lines and its not at all surprising we find V88, M269 and M73 apparenlty taking off in such different environments.  Elements of R1b could have been being shunted all over the place by the sequence of profound environmental changes. They may have parted company many thousands of years earlier.  This BTW is another reason why I think the look for R1b as matching any autosomal cluster is pointless.  They could have been so long separated that they had nothing in common except a Y-ancestor many thousands of years earlier.  Also, from a linguistic point of view, this depth of separation is so deep that so surprise need be expressed that V88, M269 and M73 derived lines tend to be linked to different language groups.  Back in 14000BC the language families we know did not exist and possibly many of them were part of some ancestral super group. So, again, I would not feel a difference in languages need worry us.
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.107 seconds with 18 queries.