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didier
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« on: November 20, 2008, 10:18:20 AM »

I just learned of another genome-wide study from last february : "Worldwide Human Relationships Inferred from Genome-Wide Patterns of Variation" , discussed on Dieneke's blog (see  http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/02/huge-paper-on-human-genetic.html ).
I didn't read the full paper (I don't have it) but as these genome-wide studies are accumulating I am surprised that the comparison of their data (results) to already known data from Y chromosome and mitochondrial  studies isn't discussed . Let me take  Basque people (yes again !) as an example. There is first the question of the sampling.  On a previously published paper on genome-wide studies I had noticed that the french data were all coming from one particular place (Lyon, near the Alps). The separation of french and Basques can be explained if a similar french sample was used. The main point is , however, that I don't understand these results. The output of all Y chromosome's studies is that European populations are mixed up. Studies on Basques populations have demonstrated a hight level of "R1b" .  How could it be that these  "R1b" (probably R-P312+) would prove that much different of other populations with similar "R1b" backgroung ?  I can't imagine that a group of isolated "R1b" men took over the land and virtually eliminated all men AND at the same time kept the rest of the population with its specific ancestral background. It doesn't make sense to me.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2008, 11:36:55 AM »

I'm not surprised that autosomal DNA results don't correlate with Y DNA very nicely.  That theme seems to be present in many of the studies I've read.

It is surprising to the extent that this is true.  Besides R-M269's wide geography, and in Western Europe, predominance, there are a few other Y haplogroups that have this characteristic.  R1a probably is another good example

I guess the inexplicable seems to be how it happened.  I think we are still speculating, but narrowing down the options.   I don't see how the "paleothic remnant" story for R1b in Europe plays anymore given the lack of diversity.    The Linear Pottery (LBK) and Impressed Ware Cultures had impressive Neolithic (about 5000 BC) spreads through Europe.  They are possibilities. 

Of course the Indo-European language set also overlays the same territories as R1b and R1a to a great extent, per other observers on this forums, assessment.   There is a good bit of evidence that the PIE language was spoken in the Pontic Steppes from 3500-2500 BC.  These horseback riding, wagon mobile people could also have a been key players.

Or maybe some mix of the above almagamated into the "Rise of the Celts" in Central Europe and took off from there in the Later part of the Bronze Age.

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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2008, 03:50:36 PM »

"How could it be that these  "R1b" (probably R-P312+) would prove that much different of other populations with similar "R1b" background ?"

I don't think they can be that much different than other "R1b" R-P312 populations. All R-P312 males must have the same core origin.
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Mike Walsh
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2008, 11:05:36 AM »

Quote from prior post: "can't imagine that a group of isolated "R1b" men took over the land and virtually eliminated all men AND at the same time kept the rest of the population with its specific ancestral background."

My thoughts are that since most diseases would affect males and females the same I think this cause is ruled out.

Some think, as some do about the Anglo-Saxons in England, that certain male groups were preferred socio-economically and even by the legal system.

Of course, the easiest reason to imagine is a male fought war where a lot of males one side died and a lot on the other side prospered.

I think there are known, documented examples of this.   In the Caribbean Islands you find this. 
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/CubaDNAProject&fixed_columns=on

Compare the Y DNA results versus the mt DNA results.  Under Y, you see predominately European HGs, including J and I and as you'd expect, R1b1b2.     I saw some African, but I think only one Q, which would be Native American.  That figures to about 1% Native American on the Y side.

On the other hand, flip over to mt and you'll see quite bit more continental mix.   Lot of European H, etc., a number of African   AND  quite a bit of A, B, C & D, which is Native American.  I calculate roughly 30% Native American on the mt side, but generally much better balance overall between the continents with more African as well.
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