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Author Topic: Brother Clades to R-U152 and R-L21 (Wales/England)  (Read 2859 times)
Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« on: November 16, 2008, 06:37:34 PM »

R1b1b2a1b1 M65 (R1b1b2a1b2)
R1b1b2a1b2 M153 (R1b1b2a1b3)
R1b1b2a1b3 M167/SRY2627 (R1b1b2a1b4)

R1b1b2a2b M65 (formerly R1b1c2) (R1b1b2b)
R1b1b2a2c M153 (formerly R1b1c4) (R1b1b2c)
R1b1b2a2d M167/SRY2627 (formerly R1b1c6) (R1b1b2d)

Y-Search

http://www.ysearch.org/

R1b1b2b (M65)

Wales-England

J9362 Baker England 13 23 14 11 12 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9 10 11
11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 17 15 19 17 38 40 12
12

5BJR7 Hayden Watford, England 13 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 17
9 10 11 11 25 15 17 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 17 15 17 17 34 37 12
12

76RZU Powell Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12
12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 15 15
17 17 38 41 12 12 12 11 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 25 16 10 12
12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

7GE4Q Knuckles United Kingdom 13 23 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18
9 10 11 11 25 14 18 29 15 15 16 17 11 10 19 22 16 14 18 17 36 37 12
12 12 13 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20
12 11 13 11 11 12 11

7PVQG Powell Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12
12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 15 15
17 17 38 41 12 12 12 11 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 25 16 10 12
12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

9HXG7 Cushman Canterbury, England 13 24 15 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13
29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 15 16 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 16 36
40 12 12

ADFNH Blyth Norfolk,
England



HJ48M Powell Trevethin, Monmouthshire, Wales 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12
12 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 15 15
17 17 38 41 12 12 12 11 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 25 16 10 12
12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

T69SN Taylor England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 13 28 19 9 9 11
11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 18 17 34 39 12
12

XKBQU Townsend England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 14 13 31 17 9 10
11 11 25 15 20 29 15 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 19 36 36 12
12

ZMJ4C Grose England 13 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9 10 11
11 25 15 19 29 15 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 17 15 17 18 37 38 12
12

R1b1b2c (M153)

Wales-England

NFJEE Corser Worcestershire, England 13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 11 13
13 29 16 8 8 11 11 24 15 19 29 14 14 15 15

R1b1b2d (M167/SRY2627)

Wales-England

7UGT7 Bailey England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 9 11
11 25 14 19 29 15 15 16 17 12 11 19 23 16 15 20 17 37 38 13 12
12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12
12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12
12

3HB6X Peck Beccles, Suffolk, East Anglia, England 13 24 14 11 11 14
11 12 13 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15 15 16
16


5MTMG Wilborn England 12 24 14 11 11 11 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11
11 26 15 19 29 15 15 18 18 10 11 19 23 16 16 20 17 36 36 12
12

6cyxc George Cornwall, United Kingdom 13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 11 13
13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 14 19 28 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 17 36
39 12 12 12 11 13 23 11 13 12 12 12 11
22

6SWQZ Dickens England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 10 13 13 13
29


7PS6Q Jillard Plymouth, England 13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29
17 9 9 11 11 25 14 19 29 15 15 17 18
12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 11 10 23 23 16 10 12
10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 12 12
12

94G2X Dibblee Somerset, England 13 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30
17 9 9 11 11 24 15 19 31 15 15 17 18 12 11 19 23 16 16 18 18 35 36 12
12

B2GMH Nicholson London, England 13 24 13 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29
17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 28 15 16 16 17 10 10 19 23 15 15 17 16 35 36
12 12 12 13 13 11 9 15 18 8 10 10 8 10 10 22 23 16
10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12
12

BNB4H Corbin England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11
11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 19 10 11 19 23 16 16 19 19 34 38 12
12

C83KK Parrish Yorkshire, England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 30
18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 15 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 38
12 12 null 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 22 23
16 10 12 10 18 8 22 21 12 11 13 11 11 12
13

DCM23 Welborn England 12 24 14 11 11 11 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11
11 26 15 19 30 15 15 15 18 10 11 19 23 16 16 20 18 36 37 12 12
12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 9 12
12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12
12

DXJBV Collins Stoke Damerel, Devonport, Devon or Devonshire, England
14 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 12 29

GJSAT Hay Lydbury North, England 13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29

JXUJ3 Gossett England 13 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 9 10 11
11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 17 19 37 39 12 12
12 12 12 11 10 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 22 23 16 10 12
10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12
12

KVSKG Boyd London, England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9
10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 17 17 36 38 12 12
12 11 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12
12 15 8 22 20 13 11 14 11 11 12
12

NVJX6 Stafford England 13 24 14 11 13 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9 10
11 11 26 15 19 29 15 15 16 16 11 10 19 23 15 14 16 17 38 39 12 12 12
12 11 23 13 13 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 11 8 10 10 23 23 16 10
12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12
12

QZ8NP Yeomans England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9 9 11
11 24 15 17 29 14 15 16 17 11 11 23 23 17 15 18 16 37 38 12 12 12 12
11 13 23 11 13 13 12 13 30 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 22 23 16 10
12 10 18 8 23 20 12 11 14 12 11 12 12 9 11 15 9 17 12 10 11 12 11 10
12 12 11 10 24 26 19 12 12

QZX9N Etheridge East Anglia, England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13
13 30 18 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15 15 17
17


SJY4J Taber England 12 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 11 12 13 29 18 9 10 11
11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 11 10 19 23 14 15 17 16 35 39 12
12

szebu Henson Devon or Devonshire, England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12
12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 16 19 11 10 19 23 15 15 17
17 35 36 12 12 12 13 13 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10
10 23 23 16 10 12 12 17 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 9 13
14 13 11 10 12

TA5PU Gossett Tennessee, England 13 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 14 13 30
17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 16 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 17 18 38 39
12 12 12 12 12 11 10 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 23 23 16
10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12
12

WR283 Hawkes England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11
11 25 15 19 29 14 15 16 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 19 17 36 37 12 12
12 13 13 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 7 10 10 23 23 16 10 12
10 17 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12
12

XPN6M Venable Devon or Devonshire, England 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12
12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 20 10 11 19 23 16 16 20
20 34 37 12 12 12 12 13 11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10 10
22 23 17 10 12 12 16 8 23 20 11 11 12 11 11 12
12

YBZ3A Dunning England 13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 30
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2008, 06:47:02 PM »

I'm not sure I'm following you exactly, Glenn.

I know some SRY2627 has been found in Britain, but are you saying M65 and M153 have been, too?

My understanding is that M65 has only been found among Sardinians and M153 has only been found among Basques.
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2008, 08:05:15 PM »

Y-Search does list M65 in Wales and England if you believe what people report as their Country of Origin. And Y-Search list one M153 in England. I have no reason to doubt what people report as their Country of Origin. One result is a small sample of M153 in England. I suppose it could have a Basque origin, though.   

Since these are brother clades to R-U152, I propose that they might have the same migration route and acompanied R-U-152 and possibly R-L21 into England.

Is that not reasonable?

Or the one M153 Y-Search result in England could be an erroneous reporting error. People do make mistakes.
 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 12:48:58 AM by Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2008, 04:14:19 PM »

From "R1b1b2d" entry in ysearch that I am following as co-administrator of the R1b1c6 project I can tell you that there are a number of wrong entries in ysearch. It's impossible to trust ysearch. For a more precise output of R1b1b2d I advise you to look at the R1b1c6 project site although some people truly SRY2627+ still didn't join. See :  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6

There are indeed SRY2627+ in British isles and some have haplotypes with differences on slow markers like DYS487=14 + DYS617=13 .
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« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2008, 04:23:15 PM »

Thanks, I will take a look!
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« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2008, 05:09:12 PM »

From "R1b1b2d" entry in ysearch that I am following as co-administrator of the R1b1c6 project I can tell you that there are a number of wrong entries in ysearch. It's impossible to trust ysearch. For a more precise output of R1b1b2d I advise you to look at the R1b1c6 project site although some people truly SRY2627+ still didn't join. See :  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6

There are indeed SRY2627+ in British isles and some have haplotypes with differences on slow markers like DYS487=14 + DYS617=13 .
I did take a look.

The R1b1b2a1b4 (SRY2627+) Project reports results from England, Ireland, France, Belgium, Germany, Sicily, and Lanarkshire (once a Scottish county).

R-U152 is also present in each of these locations.


http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6#results

The Y-Haplogroup R1b1b2a1b4 (SRY2627+) Project

DYS490 = 10

2 55998 Ireland  R1b1b2a1b4 13 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 14 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 17 37 39 12 12                                                             

12 97633 Edward Parrish, b.c. 1600, Yorkshire, England  R1b1b2a1b4 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 15 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0** 22 23 16 10 12 10 18 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 13

19 51691 John Paterson, b. 1797 Carmichael, Lanarkshire  R1b1b2a1b4 13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 21 15 15 19 17 35 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 15 10 12 10 16 8 12 23 20 15 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

22 N6312 William Savage Stafford,b.Oct 1814, Eng d. 1906 IL  R1b1b2a1b4 13 24 14 11 13 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15 15 16 16 11 10 19 23 15 14 16 17 38 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 11 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

23 E2318 Cornille Wangermez ~1620 Beclers 7532 Belgium  R1b1b2a1b4 14 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 17 16 40 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 21 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 12 22 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
 
DYS490 = 12

27 84257 Pietro Giliberti, b.c. 1733 Palermo, Sicily  R1b1b2a1b4 13 24 14 11 11 14 11 12 13 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 10 19 23 14 15 18 18 37 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 21 20 14 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
 
29 103761 William Spence, 1832, Belfast, Ireland  R1b1b2a1b4 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 19 29 13 15 16 18 10 11 19 23 15 15 18 17 35 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 15 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

30 26412 Henry Henson b. c1824, Devon, England  R1b1b2a1b4 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 16 19 11 10 19 23 15 15 17 17 35 36 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 17 8 12 23 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

DYS490 Not Tested

38 N17915 Philip Taber (b. ca. 1604 England, d. 11 Dec 1672)  R1b1b2a1b4 12 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 11 12 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 11 10 19 23 14 15 17 16 35 39 12 12                                                             
                                                                                         
41 89260 Thomas Guest b.1776 Cloughjordan Tipperary  R1b1b2a1b4 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 10 13 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 17 15 18 20 35 38 11 12                                                             
 
44 N59894 Mathurin Tetreau, Poitou, France. born 1608  R1b1b2a1b4 13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29     

48 29105 Valentin Trautvetter, b. 1836, Saxony, Germany  R1b1b2a1b4 13 25 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 9 9 11 12 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 17 36 38 12 12                                                             
 
Thanks,
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Nolan Admin - Glenn Allen Nolen
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 06:12:59 PM »

From "R1b1b2d" entry in ysearch that I am following as co-administrator of the R1b1c6 project I can tell you that there are a number of wrong entries in ysearch. It's impossible to trust ysearch. For a more precise output of R1b1b2d I advise you to look at the R1b1c6 project site although some people truly SRY2627+ still didn't join. See :  http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6

There are indeed SRY2627+ in British isles and some have haplotypes with differences on slow markers like DYS487=14 + DYS617=13 .
I also went through your provided e-mail file on SRY2627+. R-U152 can be found in all the below locations with brother clade SRY2627+.

2 SNMFM List Germany  13 24 14 11 11 16 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 23 15 19 30 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 16 18 16 36 38 12 12 12             12   13     11 8 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 18 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         
                                                                                     
4  94G2X Dibblee Ireland  13 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 17 9 9 11 11 24 15 19 31 15 15 17 18 12 11 19 23 16 16 18 18 35 36 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 15 10 12 12 17 8 22 20 11 11 13 11 11 12 14                                                                                                         

6 79181 Boyd England  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 15 16 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 17 17 36 38 12 12 12             11   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 13 11 14 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

7  B78UR Gililand Scotland  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 14 19 29 15 15 15 15 11 11 19 23 17 15 17 18 36 36 12 12 12             11   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 22 20 13 11 14 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

9  S36DT Bell Ireland  13 24 16 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 14 31 18 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 19 16 37 39 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 14 8 25 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

10  N8591 Ponce Spain 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 14 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 18 18 10 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 39 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 17 8 21 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

11  90921 Ros Spain  13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 14 15 17 18 11 11 19 22 16 15 18 17 37 37 13 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 11 11 13 10 11 12 12                                                                                                         

14  8FSAV Trombley France  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 17 17 11 11 23 23 16 15 17 17 37 39 13 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 22 22 18 10 12 12 16 8 23 20 13 11 13 11 11 12 11                                                                                                         

15  K9UQT Robison Scotland  13 25 14 12 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 16 16 17 17 11 11 19 21 16 15 19 19 36 38 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 17 8 23 20 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

16  szebu Henson England  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 12 13 28 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 16 19 11 10 19 23 15 15 17 17 35 36 12 12 12     13     13 12 12 13     11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 17 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12     13 14 13 11 10           10c 12t 13c 14c   12 13 14 15   188 188 8 15   31 31 32 32   10 11   11 11   15 17   21t 23c 26.1t   14c 15c 16c 19g   35 36

17 7UGT7 Bailey England  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 14 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 14 19 29 15 15 16 17 12 11 19 23 16 15 20 17 37 38 13 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

18  656SG Casey Ireland  13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 17 15 17 17 37 38 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

19  PU4U9 Giliberti Sicily  13 24 14 11 11 14 11 12 13 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 10 19 23 14 15 18 18 37 38 12 12 12 11 11 13 23 11 13 12 12 14 11 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 21 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 9 12 10 12 12 11 10 12 12 11                                                                                     

21  B2GMH Nicholson England  13 24 13 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 28 15 16 16 17 10 10 19 23 15 15 17 16 35 36 12 12 12             13   13     11 9 15 18 8 10 10 8 10 10 22 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

22  Q3GGH Rosales Spain  13 24 15 12 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 17 11 10 19 23 16 15 18 17 35 37 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 22 21 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

26  C83KK Parrish England  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 15 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 38 12 12 -             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 22 23 16 10 12 10 18 8 22 21 12 11 13 11 11 12 13                         10c 12c 13c 14c                                                                         

28  WR283 Hawkes England  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 16 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 19 17 36 37 12 12 12             13   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 7 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 10 17 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

29  wfjjf Motz France  13 24 14 11 12 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 16 17 11 11 19 19 16 16 18 17 39 39 12 12 12             11   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 11 23 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         
 
33  CU93Y Raglan Scotland  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 35 38 13 12 12             11   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

34  NVJX6 Stafford  England  13 24 14 11 13 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 29 15 15 16 16 11 10 19 23 15 14 16 17 38 39 12 12 12 12 11   23 13 13 12 12 13 11 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 11 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                         10c 12t 13c 14c   11 14 14 15   188 188 8 14   31 31 31 32   10 11   11 11   15 15   20t 24c 25.1t   15c 15c 16c 16g       

35  TA5PU Gossett England  13 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 16 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 17 18 38 39 12 12 12             12   12     11 10 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 23 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

36  75186 Gossett  England  13 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 17 19 37 39 12 12 12             12   12     11 10 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 22 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

37  E8CTM Paterson Scotland  13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 21 15 15 19 17 35 37 12 12 12             12   15     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 11 10 23 23 15 10 12 10 16 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

39  BMWYJ Rael Spain  13 24 14 10 11 14 12 13 12 14 13 30 20 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 12 10 19 23 15 14 19 17 37 38 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                                         

40  3S2W7 Castro Spain  13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 14 16 18 11 11 19 23 15 16 19 16 36 37 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 22 23 15 11 12 10 16 8 23 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

41  YPXDZ Roush Germany  13 24 14 12 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15 17 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 36 38 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 23 15 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

42  GGV7R Gray Ireland  13 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 13 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 14 17 18 38 40 13 12 12             12   12     11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 24 15 10 12 10 15 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                                                                                                         

47  7PS6Q Jillard England  13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 14 19 29 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 17 36 38 12 12 12             12   13     11 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 11 10 23 23 16 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                                                                                         

49  9UTFU Vernade France  13 23 15 10 10 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 30 15 16 17 18 11 11 19 23 15 15 18 16 37 37 13 12 12 12 11       13 12   14 11   10 9 15 16 8 11 10 8 10 10 25 25 17 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 10 9 12 11 11 12 12 10 12 12 11     10c 12t 13c 14c   11 14 14 15   188 188 8 15   31 31 31 32   10 11   11 11   15 18   21t 22.1t 23c   15c 16c 17c 18g       

50  8FDHB Luguet France  13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 26 14 20 29 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 18 37 38 12 12 12             12   13     12 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 23 25 17 10 12 10 16 8 22 20 12 11 13 11 11 12 10                         10c 12t 13c 14c   11 14 14 15   188 188 8 15   31 31 31 32   10 11         16 16   22t 23c 24.1t   15c 15c 17c 17g       

51  QZ8NP Yeomans England  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 19 9 9 11 11 24 15 17 29 14 15 16 17 11 11 23 23 17 15 18 16 37 38 12 12 12 12 11 13 23 11 13 13 12 13 11 24 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 22 23 16 10 12 10 18 8 23 20 12 11 14 12 11 12 12 9 12 10 11 12 11 10 12 12 11     11c 12t 13c 14c   11 14 14 15   188 188 8 15   31 31 31 32   10 11   11 12   15 17   20t 26c 28.1t   14c 15c 16c 17g       

52  55998 Henry Ireland  13 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 14 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 17 18 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 17 37 39 12 12                                                       10                                                                                                                               

53  6cyxc George U K 13 24 14 11 11 13 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 14 19 28 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 17 36 39 12 12   12 11 13 23 11 13 12 12 12 11 22                                                                                                                                                 15c 15c 17c 17g   36 39
 
55  SJY4J Taber England  12 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 11 12 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17 11 10 19 23 14 15 17 16 35 39 12 12                                                                                                                                                                                       

58  XEB4A Questell France  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 16 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 24 16 15 20 17 37 40 12 12                                                                                                                                                                                       

59  ? Rutzky Germany  13 23 14 11 11 15 12 12 11 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15 15 16 18 11 10 19 23 16 15 19 17 35 39 12 12                                                                                                                                                                                       

60  N4534 Robert King, Somerset, England  England  13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 13 13 14 29 17 9 10 11 11 27 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 10 19 23 16 15 18 17 36 37 12 12                                                                                                                                                                                       

65  PTRA6 Robertson Scotland  13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 16 17 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 19 36 38 12 12                                                                                                                                                                                       

66  103181 Duke Ireland  13 24 14 11 12 12 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 16 16 19 11 11 19 23 16 15 17 17 36 38 12 12                                                                                                                                                                                       

68  75254 Lopez,  Spain  13 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 28 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 15 15 17 18                                                                                                                                                                                                               

72  5ZWBR Lockhart Ireland  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17                                                                                                                                                                                                               

73  QZX9N Etheridge England  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15 15 17 17                                                                                                                                 
74  D8KAQ Marshall Ireland  13 25 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 17                                                                                                                                 

77 XUSQM Boyle Ireland  13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
79  N703 Hay England  13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 
83 HN4NX Kranz Germany  13 24 15 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 
 
86  N56479 Guest Ireland  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 10 13 13 13 29

104 6SWQZ Dickens England  13 24 14 11 11 14 12 10 13 13 13 29

107 DN4PR Trautvetter Germany  13 25 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30

110 DQVBS Nolette France  13 24 15 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29                                                                                                                                 

111 CWVK6 Duke Ireland  13 24 14 11 12 12 12 12 11 13 13 29
 
115 97633 Edward Parrish, b.c. 1600, Yorkshire, England  R1b1b2d 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 15 17       11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 0** 22 23 16 10 12 10 18 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 13                                                                                                                     

Thanks for sening it to me!
 
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2008, 05:43:28 PM »

Y-Search does list M65 in Wales and England if you believe what people report as their Country of Origin. And Y-Search list one M153 in England. I have no reason to doubt what people report as their Country of Origin. One result is a small sample of M153 in England. I suppose it could have a Basque origin, though.   

Since these are brother clades to R-U152, I propose that they might have the same migration route and acompanied R-U-152 and possibly R-L21 into England.

Is that not reasonable?

Or the one M153 Y-Search result in England could be an erroneous reporting error. People do make mistakes.
 

I'm more likely to believe an entry error on the part of the part of the person who created the YSearch account than I am to believe there is M65 and M153 in Wales and England.

I myself have followed up on several such errors in YSearch and confirmed they were errors.

I think if an M65 had been found in wales and an M153 in England, that would have been big news.
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2008, 05:50:52 PM »

Entry errors do happen. We all make mistakes. You could very well be right!
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2008, 06:19:52 PM »

There are two new results for M153 in Scotland at Y-Search. I'm not saying they are not errors, but the possibility exist that they are correct entries.

http://www.ysearch.org/

R1b1b2c (M153)

England-Scoland

NFJEE Corser Worcestershire, England  13 24 14 11 11 15 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 8 8 11 11 24 15 19 29 14 14 15 15                         

GSD9T Orr Scotland  13 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 12 14 28 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 18 30 15 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 17 16 17 17 37 39 9 12

K6E6X Henderson Wester Deall, Halkirk, Scotland  13 24 14 10 11 14 12 13 12 13 13 27 19 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15 16 17 17 11 11 19 24 16 15 18 17 38 39 12 12
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2008, 06:56:26 PM »

I'm sorry, but I seriously doubt there are two M153s in Scotland. The thing to do is to email the authors of those YSearch entries and see if they even know what M153 is.

I'll do it, if no one else wants to.

"R1b1b2c" could easily be the result of confusion between old "R1b1c" and new "R1b1b2."

Everything I've read about M153, which is not at all common, is that it has only been found among the Basques.
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2008, 07:07:32 PM »

Okay. I sent emails to all three of the persons responsible for those "R1b1b2c" YSearch entries asking if they really have been tested M153+.

I will be utterly stunned if it turns out any of them is really M153+.
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2008, 07:10:52 PM »

You are probably correct, but I try hard to allow for the correctness of  posted results of a persons stated Country of Origin or Haplogroup.

Granted mistakes happen! Glad you e-mailed them. They may be clueless as you surmise.

Thanks
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2008, 07:40:19 PM »

I did find mention of M153 in one Caucasian from 2004 discussed on John McEwan's M153 page.

http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/m153.htm

R1b1c4 aka M153

John McEwan

3rd June 2006 (typo revision 23 October 2006)


Occurrence

"It was first described by Underhill et al (2000) where it was found in 7 people all Basques.  Bosch et al. (2001) described a further derived individual, Flores et al. (2004) 6 individuals, Paracchini et al. (2003) 5 “Latino” individuals, Vallone and Butler (2004) 1 “Caucasian” and Alonso et al. (2005) 18 individuals. In total 38 people have been identified as derived for this SNP to date."
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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2008, 09:24:57 PM »

I wonder if by "Caucasian" they meant simply that the person was a "Caucasian" by race rather than an actual Caucasian, i.e., a person from the Caucasus Mountains.

Sounds like all of the M153s have been Hispanic.
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« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2008, 10:05:38 PM »

To me, the word "Caucasian" means ethnicity. Basque and Latino are ethnic descriptions, also. At least, that is my assumption.
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« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2008, 10:13:37 PM »

To me, the word "Caucasian" means ethnicity. Basque and Latino are ethnic descriptions, also. At least, that is my assumption.

Ethnicity in the Caucasus is much more specific. A "Caucasian" would more likely be identified as a Georgian, a Chechen, an Ossetian, etc., and not simply as a "Caucasian."

That identification came from one report you mentioned above, Vallone and Butler (2004).

I guess we would have to read the report to find out.
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« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2008, 10:25:50 PM »

Found the title. From it I assume it is a United States Caucasian sample.

http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/r1bsummary.htm


Vallone PM, Butler JM. 2004 Y-SNP typing of U.S. African American and Caucasian samples using allele-specific hybridization and primer extension. J Forensic Sci. 49:723-32.
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2009, 10:50:51 AM »

To me, the word "Caucasian" means ethnicity. Basque and Latino are ethnic descriptions, also. At least, that is my assumption.
Ethnicity in the Caucasus is much more specific. A "Caucasian" would more likely be identified as a Georgian, a Chechen, an Ossetian, etc., and not simply as a "Caucasian."
That identification came from one report you mentioned above, Vallone and Butler (2004).....
I was surprised a bit by a supposition posted on another forum.  A pretty good genetic genealogist who studies R1b1b2 speculated on the origin of R1b1b2 (R-M269.)   His evaluation of samples from Anatolia as well the Arabian Peninsula and Iran and more led to probable region that is centered on the territory between the Black and Caspian Seas.... the Caucasus.
He felt it could be directly on the north or south sides of this region, but this was the center point.  As a kid I've always had to mark myself on various forms as Caucasian and I always thought that it was weird  ... had no idea what Caucasian meant.  As I grew up and read a little about the German scientist who came up this term in the 17th century and I thought "how strange, this term comes from a crackpot but we still use it today."
Lo and behold, now a pretty sharp guy places the Caucasus as the most likely target for R-M269's origin.
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R1b-L21>L513(DF1)>L705.2
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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2009, 08:49:33 AM »

I think you mean VV on the dna-forums.

If he is right, then the term "Caucasian" used for "Whites" would be very accurate. R1b1b2 and G2 seems to have its origins there, and J2 maybe as well.
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Y-DNA: R1b1b2a1b4 (S28/U-152) L2 test pending
Earliest known paternal ancestor: Matthias Fejer, b. 1819, Jaszarokszallas, Jasz county, Central Hungary
MtDNA: U4 (Western Siberian Ugric)
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