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Author Topic: Welcome to the R1b and Subclades Subforum!  (Read 25531 times)
janoliver
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009, 04:05:30 PM »

Hi, I was wondering if someone can just give me an overview of R1b1b2 (R-M269).  I admit to being a newbie and just got test results back.  Surname is Griffin and markers are 1 off from matching with documented descendents of Rhys Ap Gryffudd of Castle Howell, Wales.  Am I to understand that there is a relationship here to the Basque people of Spain where this haplo type is most prevalent?  Any basic information to help me begin to wrap my head around this would be greatly appreciated.

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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009, 06:41:50 PM »

Hi, I was wondering if someone can just give me an overview of R1b1b2 (R-M269).  I admit to being a newbie and just got test results back.  Surname is Griffin and markers are 1 off from matching with documented descendents of Rhys Ap Gryffudd of Castle Howell, Wales.  Am I to understand that there is a relationship here to the Basque people of Spain where this haplo type is most prevalent?  Any basic information to help me begin to wrap my head around this would be greatly appreciated.
Welcome!  We are glad to have you.  I doubt if there is the strong link between the Welsh and the Basques, but there are whole discussion threads on this that you might find interesting.

What testing company did you use?

You might considering getting your information uploaded to Ysearch.org.   This is free.

Since you have the Welsh interest/connection I recommend you also join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/walesdna/    and   http://www.genpage.com/walesdnaproject.html

BTW, this is just family folklore, but my clan's "ancestral home" was also "Castle Howell" or "Castle Hale", but this one is in SE Ireland.    Supposedly we descend from Nest verch Rhys.  She would have been an aunt to The Lord Rhys (aka Rhys Ap Gryffudd.)

"Rhys ap Tewdwr... married to Gwladys verch Rhiwallon.... by whom he had four sons, Gruffydd, Hywel ap Rhys, Goronwy and Cadwgan, and a daughter Nest."
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rms2
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009, 07:16:56 PM »

Hi, I was wondering if someone can just give me an overview of R1b1b2 (R-M269).  I admit to being a newbie and just got test results back.  Surname is Griffin and markers are 1 off from matching with documented descendents of Rhys Ap Gryffudd of Castle Howell, Wales.  Am I to understand that there is a relationship here to the Basque people of Spain where this haplo type is most prevalent?  Any basic information to help me begin to wrap my head around this would be greatly appreciated.



I want to add my welcome, as well.

There is a lot of old junk on the internet that dates from a couple of years or more ago, including claims that "R1b" in Britain is "Basque." This science is moving fast, and such claims are obsolete. Don't believe them. You will also see all sorts of stuff about "R1b" being "Cro Magnon." That is also obsolete info.

Things have changed, and knowledge has advanced greatly. R1b1b2 (M269+) is too young to have been in Western Europe during the last Ice Age. There is nothing particularly "Basque" about the biggest part of it. R1b1b2 probably entered Europe from Anatolia or Central Asia sometime during the Neolithic Period.

A good general summary can be found at the bottom of the ISOGG (International Society of Genetic Genealogy) 2009 Y Haplogroup R Tree:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

If you tested with FTDNA, you should order the Deep Clade-R test (available from a link on your "Haplotree" page). If you are of Welsh descent there is a good chance you are L21+.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 07:19:00 PM by rms2 » Logged

aidan
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2009, 11:21:36 AM »

I have ordered the Deep Clade test and I am also currently awaiting the results of my 67 marker Y-DNA test.

Good. That will tell the tale. I think you will be M222+.

I wouldn't worry too much about that 393=14. That just represents a move of one from the usual 393=13.

Aidan, what is your YSearch number? Mine is HX9ZF.

I have just got my SNP Result and I am R1b1b2a1b5b (M222+).
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2009, 12:21:32 PM »

Things have changed, and knowledge has advanced greatly. R1b1b2 (M269+) is too young to have been in Western Europe during the last Ice Age. There is nothing particularly "Basque" about the biggest part of it. R1b1b2 probably entered Europe from Anatolia or Central Asia sometime during the Neolithic Period.
[/quote]
Also for supporting the recent theory that Rokus01 is supporting on "dna-forums", that are at a certain degree very similar to what my friend Gioiello Tognoni was writing from many years, before tiring of all forums and all banishments:

Spain hasn’t the most ancient haplotypes of R1b1b2 (L23-, L23+ etc.) like Italy and also R-U152, in spite of  the presumed “Celts” or Celtiberians. I have always supported that R1b1b2 arrived to Spain from Italy and the Spanish subclades (R-M153 and R-M167) was born during the trip, probably in South France (but now we have some R-M167 also in Italy (Giliberti) and it isn’t said that he is from Spain). I think it is difficult to discern what is in Spain very ancient, Celtiberian or Roman or Visigothic etc. Probably the first arrive from Italy to Spain was very ancient and the R1b was the undifferentiated R-P312 and they carried  an ancient IE common language,  if *Cord-uba presupposes IE *ghort- like the Italian Cortona  (Etruscan “Curtun”) and Greek Gortyna, probably from Pelasgian.  Celtiberians were a second wave, from an evolved IE of Italy: the Proto Italo-Celtic, which is dated by Luay Nakhleh et alii (Perfect phylogenetic networks: a new methodology for  reconstructing the evolutionary history of natural languages) about at 3,000 BC. My theory of course presupposes a few axioms: 1) there has been a Proto-Indo-European which includes Rhaetian-Etruscan-Pelasgian before 4,000 BC presupposed by Nakhleh et alii before the separation of Hittite; 2) R-L23- is more ancient than many are thinking.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 12:49:07 PM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2009, 04:59:15 PM »

"before tiring of all forums and all banishments:"

I can certainly understand the above comment. I get tired of everything always being referred back to the bad genetic genealogy of a couple of years ago. Our knowledge has improved in this industry in a very short time. Why some researchers continue to dwell in the land of fantasy proposed by some genetic genealogists and population geneticists is beyond comprehension. I recently opted out of the R-P312 Yahoo group. I'm tired of reading about bad R-U152 science of a few years ago, I can't even call what EthnoAncesrty and their so-called expert on the subject did science.
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2009, 02:05:04 AM »

"before tiring of all forums and all banishments:"

I can certainly understand the above comment. I get tired of everything always being referred back to the bad genetic genealogy of a couple of years ago. Our knowledge has improved in this industry in a very short time. Why some researchers continue to dwell in the land of fantasy proposed by some genetic genealogists and population geneticists is beyond comprehension. I recently opted out of the R-P312 Yahoo group. I'm tired of reading about bad R-U152 science of a few years ago, I can't even call what EthnoAncesrty and their so-called expert on the subject did science.
Dear Nolen, but you "opted out", my friend Gioiello was banned twice! I know your theory about the "Nolan" from Nuv-la, and you can imagine how, as Italian, I was glad if this was true. Anyway the links between Italy and the most ancient "Celtic"stratum of the British Isles (with Ireland of course) is evident. Your theory pesupposes also a most ancient presence of "Italics" in Italy than it is normally thought, and this was the theory of my friend Gioiello and now of Rokus01 too. I think that about this theory we must collect proofs, genetical archaeological historical etc.
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Maliclavelli


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Jafety R1b-U152
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2009, 04:14:12 AM »

Glenn, Maliclavelli, do you put Proto-Italo-Celts into Italy? That is interesting idea. I dismissed it before because of the Etruscan problem (namely, how could the Celts pass through Etruscans to the north or the Italics to the south while Etruscans stayed there). But if we put Proto-Italo-Celtic (PIC) around 1200 BC into Padania (Po valley) then it is possible that Etruscans cut PIC into two different branches, Northern Celtic and Southern Italic, as Marco Alinei thinks Etruscans (or Villanovan culture) came from the Carpathian Basin around 1200-1000 BC.
Thus the breakup of PIC would be a result of Etruscan migration.

What do you think?
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2009, 05:56:23 AM »

Jafety, I think that the Etruscan problem is complex. First we don't know certainly if Etruscans came from Asia Minor or if the Lemnians, who spoke a language close to Etruscan, went from Italy. Anyway it is possible that Etruscans were only an upper class come from Asia Minor, who overlapped a previous people of Italics, probably Umbrians. But as Publius Vergilius Maro (a Roman of Etruscan descent) wrote in his Aeneis: anticam exquirite matrem, having Etruscans and Italics a memory that who came from East was returning to the "old Mother". I think that probably Pelasgians were the first, from the previuos Mesolithic people (what my friend Gioiello would claim the "Italian refugium") who migrated through the Balkans to Greece. After was the Hittite who migrated to South to Asia Minor. Then I think that Etruscan, linked to Rhaetian, is the survivor of this first stratum, and at this point isn't important that they have come from Aegean Sea or were autochthonous. The link that Mario Alinei puts between Etruscan and Ugrian could be interesting, as the closest language group to IE is certainly Ugro-Finnic, and Etruscan, as a survivor of the first phase  of IE after the separation from UF, could have retained some close trait. But on this I could study deeply the Alinei's theory, that in theory merits all my respect.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 06:08:25 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2009, 11:56:50 AM »

“my friend Gioiello was banned twice!”

That’s his badge of honor in this industry. I was suspended from DNAForums myself and, I never went back. My repeated attempts to regain admittance to Rootsweb DNA L List were unsuccessful last year, also. And if the owner of this forum deletes another one of my post, I will not come back here either. Tell Gioiello I can understand his frustrations.
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mcg11
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2009, 04:31:58 PM »

I find the posts on this forum refreshing and interesting.  I have been studying the Clan Gregor for quite a while and recently performed an interesting little analysis.  I computed the TMRCA from the current clan chieftain, 2124 on the Clan Gregor FtDNA website to the scottish modal haplotype. (note the chief is alive and well).  There were three differences over 37 dys loci.  The TMRCA was 1800 BP +/-500 years. This suggests that the founder of the scottish modal may have been in scotland when the mutation occurred.  I, then computed the TMRCA between the Scots modal and L-21+ and my surprising (to me) answer was about 2750 BC for the founding of L-21+.  This is younger than I had expected.  Finally, I looked at the R1b of Benelux FtDNA web site and estimated the modal values. There are a mix of R1b1b2 folks on that website with a couple of L-21+ also.  The net result was that I couldn't disprove the assumption that the L-21+ modal and the Benelux modal were the same.

I would like to extend this analysis to the modal haplotypes of U106 and P312, which I currently don't have.  I do have the M269 modal and M222 from YSearch.

So, my questions are: 1.  Could the lowcountries have been the source or the melting pot of U106 and P312?  2. Are there agreed upon U106 and P312 modal haplotypes?
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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2009, 07:36:23 PM »

I find the posts on this forum refreshing and interesting.  I have been studying the Clan Gregor for quite a while and recently performed an interesting little analysis.  I computed the TMRCA from the current clan chieftain, 2124 on the Clan Gregor FtDNA website to the scottish modal haplotype. (note the chief is alive and well).  There were three differences over 37 dys loci.  The TMRCA was 1800 BP +/-500 years. This suggests that the founder of the scottish modal may have been in scotland when the mutation occurred.  I, then computed the TMRCA between the Scots modal and L-21+ and my surprising (to me) answer was about 2750 BC for the founding of L-21+.  This is younger than I had expected.  Finally, I looked at the R1b of Benelux FtDNA web site and estimated the modal values. There are a mix of R1b1b2 folks on that website with a couple of L-21+ also.  The net result was that I couldn't disprove the assumption that the L-21+ modal and the Benelux modal were the same.

I would like to extend this analysis to the modal haplotypes of U106 and P312, which I currently don't have.  I do have the M269 modal and M222 from YSearch.

So, my questions are: 1.  Could the lowcountries have been the source or the melting pot of U106 and P312?  2. Are there agreed upon U106 and P312 modal haplotypes?
What do you mean that you couldn't disprove that the L21+ and Benelux modal were the same?  A modal is just a calculation.  It is what it is, right?  When I put all of the L21* haplotypes I can find into a spreadsheet and run the modal calculations I get exactly the Western Atlantic Modal... the extended version.   My understanding is that the P312 is the same so there is not much differentiation in the L21* modal.  Is Benelux's modal also equal to WAMH?  Rms2 knows his way around this stuff, maybe he can confirm if the L21* and/or L21+ and/or Benelux and/or P312 are all the same as WAMH.   I think U106+ actually is different.  Doesn't it have 13 at DYS492?
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2009, 08:54:09 PM »

Here are some 67 marker modals:

2XD3U, UHQWQ, XN33E, C7BED, 3QNM8, QB382, Z9HCX, KXNRA, QDSNM, 9MDZ4, TBVYK, J2CGH, K9VGV, NT4BZ, PMBG3, M5UKQ, BFHRM, 6JMAK, HXTNR

The East Anglia modal has 30 at 452, so it's a problem when dealing with >67 markers, most others seem to have 11.   Some of these modals were posted quite a while ago.   WAMH comes up C7BED. 
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« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2009, 06:28:12 AM »

I don't think that its that simple.  There are different sets of data and you can get different modals for different data sets (sub-clades?).  I think my idea of estimating a modal haplotype from mixed sub clades is incorrect.

What I hope to do is to hop from modal to modal and estimate time back to various R1b modal events (when the founder existed).

I've already run into a small problem.  If I use the M222 modal haplotype and compute the difference to L-21+, I get about 5200 years between the two.  Unlike the scots modal, I don't know when the M222 modal occurred?  I believe it has to be 2k to 3k old at least?  That would put L-21+ at 7K to 8K BP.  I believe this data is more correct? (larger data set).

thanks for the modals.  I'll check them out.

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« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2009, 02:32:42 PM »

A modal haplotype is nothing more than running the MODE function for a particular set of values.  It is in effect, a popularity contest of values for any given set.

My feeling was the original WAMH came to be because the databases were so overwhelmed with then-unknown L21+ haplotypes in the first place.

What mutation rates are you using?

I keep coming up with age estimates for M222 that make it roughly 1500 years +/- 500 years younger than L21, which ball-parks it circa 500 BCE to 500 CE.

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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2009, 04:57:21 PM »

Hello and apologies if this is the wrong forum..... I have had my DNA tested with Ancestry.com and think I am R1b1b2 (although not certain). If I post my results here could you point me in the right direction......

DYS 19a =15, DYS19b=-, DYS385a=12

DYS385b=15, DYS388=12, DYS389I=13

DYS389II=29, DYS390=24, DYS391=11

DYS392=13, DYS393=13, DYS426=12

DYS437=14, DYS438=13, DYS439=11

DYS441=14, DYS442=17, DYS444=12

DYS445=12, DYS446=13, DYS447=25

DYS448=19, DYS449=31, DYS452=29

DYS454=11, DYS455=11, DYS456=16

DYS458=17, DYS459a=9, DYS459b=10

DYS460=10, DYS461=13, DYS462=11

DYS463=24

Sorry for all the figures. Can anybody help????? Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 04:57:57 PM by THP » Logged
vtilroe
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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2009, 09:13:21 PM »

THP, I believe you're right, this does look like it would be in R1b1b2, and I suspect it may even be U106+ (R1b1b2a1a1), but it's tough to say for sure without a deep-clade SNP test.  Do you have plans to pursue further testing?

You should also post your results to http://www.ysearch.org
Some of the values would need to be converted:
Subtract 19 from DYS452
Subtract 2 from DYS463
Subtract 1 from DYS441
Subtract 5 from DYS442
Subtract 2 from Y-GATA-A10 (n/a)
Subtract 11 from Y-GATA-H4 (n/a)
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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2009, 06:10:56 PM »

I'm rather perplexed.  I'm a confirmed L21 (S116). But to my surprize to an Irish Catholic, form Tipperary since 1834, my Y DNA is showing Babylonian, Khazarian, Lithuanian, and Belgium and Spainish place markers. 

All four grandparents show Jewish ancestry throuhg DNA testing and surnames matching . My materal line and fathers maternal line are Ashkenasi Jewish. While my Y DNA and mothers praternal line is Sephardic Jewish.  So it appears that I'm an R1b Ashkenasi Jew.  (They intermixed with the Sephardic Jews along the Pyrennes.)

It appears my ancestors went form Babylon, to Jewish Khazaria, to Lithuania, and on to either Spain (Pyrennes / N. Portugal) or the Netherlands (Rhine River) around the 8th C. Could L21 (R1b1b2a1b6) be a rare Jewish subclade? I'm guessing that the subclade split in Babylon - some on to Spain and others on to the Netherlands before crossing the Channel. 

I also have that rare marker DYS 391=12.

Any help appreciated.
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Wendy Quinlan
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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2010, 08:20:33 PM »

I am a new administrator for the Glover Surname Project. 
I have a link to Ken Nordvelts charts for the I haplogroup and types. Very helpful.

Is there any such chart for the R1 descedents?  Most all of my Glover project members are R1b1b2, except I have one who only reports a  R1b....thus I am not sure if perhaps his haplotype was truncated or if I could further figure him out if I had access to modal values. 
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rms2
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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2010, 08:41:48 PM »

I am a new administrator for the Glover Surname Project. 
I have a link to Ken Nordvelts charts for the I haplogroup and types. Very helpful.

Is there any such chart for the R1 descedents?  Most all of my Glover project members are R1b1b2, except I have one who only reports a  R1b....thus I am not sure if perhaps his haplotype was truncated or if I could further figure him out if I had access to modal values. 

I don't think anyone has done for y haplogroup R or even R1b what Ken Nordtvedt has done for y haplogroup I.
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2010, 04:20:28 PM »

I am a new administrator for the Glover Surname Project. 
I have a link to Ken Nordvelts charts for the I haplogroup and types. Very helpful.

Is there any such chart for the R1 descedents?  Most all of my Glover project members are R1b1b2, except I have one who only reports a  R1b....thus I am not sure if perhaps his haplotype was truncated or if I could further figure him out if I had access to modal values. 

I don't think anyone has done for y haplogroup R or even R1b what Ken Nordtvedt has done for y haplogroup I.
Probably so, but Nordtvedt's R1b clusters can be very useful. However I would say the starting point for any R1b wanting to know more about his haplotype would be the WAMH.
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« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2010, 12:31:52 PM »

I am not sure if I am R1b1b2.  My numbers are:  14 24 14 11 11 14 13 12 11 13 13 29 17.  I am guessing I am Atlantic Modal Haplogroup.

Dr. Doug
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Maliclavelli
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« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2010, 01:03:15 PM »

Having DYS426=13, probably you are R-L51+.
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Maliclavelli


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« Reply #48 on: July 21, 2010, 03:15:21 PM »

I am not sure if I am R1b1b2.  My numbers are:  14 24 14 11 11 14 13 12 11 13 13 29 17.  I am guessing I am Atlantic Modal Haplogroup.

Dr. Doug

Determining R1b1b2 from STR markers (which is what you list) is generally reliable. I suggest you plug your numbers into Cullen's haplogroup predicter (which should be easily found on google). If you have a Ysearch entry, you can compare your results against the the WAMH, which is listed there as C7BED. If you have problems let us know.

Predicting subclades of R1b1b2 from STR markers is in most cases impossible or at best unreliable. You will need deep clade SNP testing to be certain.
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« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2010, 09:22:59 PM »

Hi, I'm fairly new to this, but I have had my deep clade testing done with FTDNA, and have been designated an R1b1b2*, with no downstream markers. I understand that this may be an old variety of R1b1b2 originating in Anatolia and identified as ht35, characterized by 393=12, as opposed to ht15, which is, I believe, the Atlantic Modal and characterized by 393=13. In fact, an article at Europedia indicates that R1B1B2* with nothing downstream is a source population for the Germanic, Celtic and Italic groups that eventually populated most of Europe. Can anyone point me in the direction of any studies or literature that could help me shed some light on these numbers and the culture(s) in which R1b1b2* originated? My numbers are at Ysearch, R5PM5. Thanks to all and any who can help.

Don
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 09:23:48 PM by donaldcan » Logged

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