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Author Topic: Can someone take a look,and tell me what you think?  (Read 6013 times)
Gary Corbett
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« on: June 04, 2007, 01:35:34 AM »

I'm pretty new to all this,so bear with me.
I've taken a 37 marker test.The first 25 marker results have posted.
They say I'm an R1b1,and I am a perfect match with 2 other men in my surname study.
Looking around on the internet,trying to understand what it all means,I found a paper by Kevin D. Campbell,where he did some research to flesh out some things Bryan Sykes had written about ancestry in the British Isles.
Towards the bottom of a chart he had on there,I finally found my exact sequence posted.
For that study,they named mine OGAP 27.
That's Oxford Genetic Atlas Project 27.

Here are my 12 markers that were said to be OGAP 27:
393-13
390-25
19-14
391-10
426-12
388-12
439-12
389a-13
392-13
389b-16

The best I can tell,this means that I am a Celtic person with roots in Ireland.
Can someone that knows this stuff take a look,and tell me if this is correct?I'd greatly appreciate it.
Thanks.
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hdw
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 09:13:33 AM »

Gary, I had only 10 markers on my Y DNA tested by Oxford Ancestors, and my results are pretty close to yours. I have the same results as you at 393, 390, 19, 391, 426, 388 and 392. Oxford Ancestors don't test 439.  I'm a bit puzzled by your 389a and b results. In the Oxford Ancestors' terminology, I have 389i - 10, which corresponds to 13 with other testing agencies, and 389ii - 17, which corresponds to other agencies' 30. Your 389a - 13 looks to me like an Oxford Ancestors' 10, and your 389b - 16 looks like an Oxford Ancestors reading which other firms would call 29. Or I am just dazed and confused??

For the record, I come from an east-coast Scottish fishing village (9 miles from St. Andrews, for you golfers) where my father's family have lived for hundreds of years, intermarrying with other local  fishing families. I'm aware of the genetic similarities between my DNA sequence and lots of Irish people, but it must go back to the movement of the "Scots" from Ireland into Caledonia.

Harry
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2007, 10:35:47 AM »

Hi Harry.
Thanks for the reply.
Yes,my FT DNA results call that marker 29.
It took a little bit of surfing the net to figure out why.
Some researchers consider 389-1 to be a part of 389-2.So you take the number 29 and subtract 13 from it,and get the number 16,which matches all 10 markers that were listed in the article,perfectly.

I'm certainly no expert-seems like somewhere way back in time,maybe we came from the same people.
I'm reading up and learning all I can as I go along.
Last night,I found some articles about Dal Riada Celts-would this be what you are referring to as a possible source of your DNA?

I'm an American living in Texas.
My father was born in North Carolina,in a tobacco farming community that is known for being a place where Scots-Irish people came to live.
On some of my ancestral lines,I've really been blessed with excellent paper trails back into antiquity.Not quite that lucky with my surname,though.We have been able to make guesses about our immigrant surname ancestor,but don't know for sure yet.
This recent info is actually a bit of a surprise.We had guessed we were English,Scottish,or Norman.
Maybe all that is still a possibility-I'm not sure.
I'm thinking Irish Celt is looking most likely at the moment,though.
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hdw
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2007, 03:05:38 PM »

Bryan Sykes's data is accessible at www.bloodoftheisles.net and I have about 15 exact matches there. To my surprise some of them turned out to be French (from a LeBlanc who went from France to Canada, and has US descendants called White today), and I even had two exact matches in Puerto Rico whose ancestors came from the north of Spain. I can only imagine that my relationship to them goes back thousands of years to when our mutual ancestor was hiding out in the Iberian "refuge" from the ice-caps.

My native county of Fife in the east of Scotland was a separate Pictish kingdom in the Dark Ages, and they were Celts of a kind with a language that was close to Welsh and Gaulish (French Celtic). Sykes says in "Blood of the Isles" that it's difficult to tell Dalriadic Scot and Pict apart, genetically.

Harry
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hdw
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2007, 03:21:05 PM »

Corbett is a not uncommon name in England and Scotland. I've met a Dr. John Corbett who is an expert on Scots language and literature, at Glasgow University, I think, and most nights on BBC TV our weather forecast comes from a Daniel Corbett who has such an absurdly "posh" English accent, he makes Jeremy Irons sound like George W. Bush.

Harry
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2007, 02:20:05 AM »

Hello again,Harry.
Yes,I just saw that LeBlanc thing tonight,when I compared my newest results on Y search.
Also saw a Scottish Anderson that was very close.
I'm going to have to buy some of Bryan Sykes' books.Fascinating stuff.

Do you plan on ever upgrading to a higher resolution test?
It would be great to see if we match at a higher level.

About my surname-it is a name of Norman origin,and is one of the earliest surnames in Britain.
The earliest known person with the name was a Norman named Hugh Corbet.
Some claim he was at the Battle of Hastings with William the Conqueror,but that is unsubstantiated.I've also heard that he was brought to Shropshire to advise William about how to deal with the Welsh.Again,I don't know if that can be stated as documented fact.
What is known,though,is that at least 1 of his sons stayed in Great Britain,greatly multiplied,and spread into about all areas of the realm.
One of my goals is to find out whether I am a direct male descendant of Hugh Corbet,or not.With what at this time appears to be a Gaelic Irish Y chromosome,I'm guessing the answer is no.I do have a well-documented line of descent from him,back through an immigrant ancestor of mine,Col. Thomas Ligon,in Colonial Virginia.This is definitely not a direct male line,though,so nothing useful by way of DNA can come from that.
I've found some Corbetts at a place called Moreton Corbett,that are claimed to be and probably are direct male descendants of Hugh Corbet.My one email to Capt. Peter Corbett was evidently ignored,as I haven't heard back from him.It would be nice if either he or one of his family would get tested,so we could actually see the Y details of Hugh Corbet,and compare ourselves to it.This may never happen in my lifetime-who knows.
We've already seen in our surname study that several non-related families are using the name Corbett.
There is a good possibility that some or all of us may have come from either farmers working the lands of the Norman Corbetts,or possibly soldiers in the retinue-or who knows?

Surprisingly,the rest of my 37 marker test results posted today.
I have 2 markers that are slightly different than the administrator's husband.
At CDY a&b,he has 38,38.
At CDY a&b,I have 37,39.
Those are fast-mutating markers,so I think this is significant as a branch-line designator,mine being slightly different than his.

Oh,by the way,I also found an online article that had my first 12 markers,with no variations.
Mine was found in 16 men in Ireland,and was given the designation OGAP 27.
I looked to see if your variation with 389b of 17 was listed,but it wasn't.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 02:39:47 AM by Gary Corbett » Logged
hdw
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2007, 05:09:11 AM »

Sykes's books are fascinating to read, but now that I know a bit more about the subject, I'm sorry I got myself tested by Oxford Ancestors and not by another firm who test a lot more markers, so that you get more bangs for your buck so to speak. Oxford Ancestors are incredibly expensive, and I don't think I can afford to shell out even more money just to satisfy my curiosity.

Incidentally, I also got my mtDNA tested, which showed that I am haplogroup J, or what Sykes calls "the clan of Jasmine". This strain is of Middle Eastern origin, having originated in Syria - quite a surprise for this fair, red-haired Scotsman!  My wife tested as "clan of Ulrike", which I think is U5 in proper terminology. They are very rare in Britain, found only on the east coast of England (my wife's mother is from Northumberland), and are of Danish Viking origin. When we told our younger son that his mum was a Viking, he said he had always expected as much.

Harry
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kennypick
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2007, 10:21:40 AM »

Hi Gary, I'm new to this game too.  I just received my results from familytreedna, but can't find any reference to a haplogroup.  My results seem fairly similar to yours:-
393-13;390-23;19-14;391-11;385a-11:385b-14;426-12;388-12;439-12;389 1-13;392-13;389 2-29.
I can't for the life of me think what all this means !        Cheers, Ken
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2007, 12:13:39 AM »

Ken,from the reading I've been doing recently,it seems to me that 23 on your 390 often indicates German ancestry.
Don't take that as Gospel-sure as I say it,someone will prove it wrong.

I sent an email to Kevin Campbell,who authored an article I referred to.
This was his reply:

Gary,
 
Thanks for the nice words on my paper.  No, I wouldn't say that you are Gaelic.  Here's the location of your actual matches in the Sykes data.
 
 Central England 1
 East Anglia  1
 Grampian  1
 Hebrides    1
 Highland    2
 London    1
 North England  1
 Northern Isles  1
 Northumbria  1
 South-West England  2

 
Given that we're talking about migrations that happened thousands of years ago, you shouldn't put too much stalk in a 10/10 match.
 
The raw sykes data is located at:
http://www.bloodoftheisles.net/results.html
 
 

So,I guess I'm back to the beginning,again...
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2007, 10:44:29 AM »

I got one more reply from the guy-I'm not gonna pester him any more!!
He said I am likely R1B-11.
Also told me to read a book by Stephen Oppenheimer-The Genetic History of Britain.
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hdw
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2007, 07:18:36 AM »

I have a copy of Stephen Oppenheimer's "The Origins of the British", which may be the British edition of the book you mention. British and Americans editions often have different titles. Regarding R1b-11, on page 222 of this book Oppenheimer writes:

"...R1b-13 arrived during the Mesolithic and subsequently gave rise to two Neolithic clusters, R1b-11 and R1b-12. While both are strongly represented in Wales and Ireland, the Fen country, and along the Atlantic coast of Britain, R1b-11 also characterizes Scotland and the Western Isles, and around Norfolk. They jointly account overall for 7% of extant British lines, but most of their diversity developed with Late Neolithic population expansions. Their re-expansion partly explains why the rate of contemporary incoming Neolithic lines on the Atlantic coast of Britain is lower than for eastern Britain and elsewhere in Europe."

I'm not sure I understand all that. Norfolk and the Fen country (where my wife comes from, in eastern England) are Anglo-Saxon areas and a long way from the Celtic Western Isles and Ireland, so it doesn't look as if R1b-11 ties in with notions of Englishness or Celticity.

Harry
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2007, 12:57:23 AM »

Thanks for that book quote,Harry.
I guess I'll have to get that one and read it-although a couple of the forums I've been reading posts at don't seem to hold Mr. Oppenheimer in high regard.
I can't even find that terminology he's using-anywhere.
Did you see anything in his explanations that would make you think our sequence would be included in that group?
I just picked up a copy of the Sykes book,The Seven Daughters of Eve.That was a very good read.
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hdw
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2007, 05:59:23 AM »

Oppenheimer's book is confusing and frustrating in equal measure. He talks a lot about haplogroups and sub-haplogroups, e.g. R1b-13, but he doesn't say how he defines these groups in terms of mutations. He'll say that one group differs from another only by one mutation, but he doesn't say what that mutation is.  Like Bryan Sykes and all these other guys who run DNA-testing firms, he is reluctant to tell you the nitty-gritty of which mutations = which (sub)-haplogroup until you've crossed his palm with silver.

And I find  it annoying that all these people have their own unique terminology for the same things, so that if you have got used to Sykes talking about the clan of Oisin, Katrine, Jasmine, etc., then you turn to Oppenheimer, and find he is talking about Ruisko and Rostov and Rox and Ivan and God knows what, and you struggle to relate these names to the ones that Sykes uses.

Oppenheimer also has some off-the-wall ideas about language. He brings up the hoary old myth about the Picts of Northern Scotland having a language that was non-Indo European, and he actually believes that a Semitic language (i.e. like Hebrew and Arabic) may have been spoken in Scandinavia in prehistoric times. He also thinks that English in some shape or form was spoken in England several thousand years BC and that it came from Scandinavia.

My background is in languages, and I find some of his ideas weird in the extreme.

If you enjoyed Sykes's book "The Seven Daughters of Eve", I'm sure you would also enjoy his latest, "Blood of the Isles". It may have a different title in the States.

Harry

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hdw
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2007, 02:41:42 PM »

Gary, as you are interested in your surname, the following may be of interest.

Here in Scotland, our hills and mountains are graded as Munros, Corbetts and Grahams, according to their height. The highest are Munros, which have to be at least 3,000 feet (914.4 metres). They are called after Sir Hugh Munro, who in 1891 drew up a list of 236 summits in the Scottish Highlands which broke the 3,000 feet barrier. Since his time, "Munro-bagging" has been a popular sport among mountaineers, i.e. climbing each Munro summit at least once. There are now 284 acknowledged Munros.

Next in height are the Corbetts, which are between 2,000 and 2,999 feet. They are called after John Rooke Corbett, who in 1930 became the first person to climb all the 2,000 foot peaks in Scotland.

Smaller peaks are Grahams. Don't ask me who Mr. Graham was.

Of course, in modern times methods of measuring mountains have become much more sophisticated, so that some former measurements have had to be revised.

Both of my daily newspapers, the "Guardian" and the "Scotsman", carry articles today about the downgrading of Foinaven in the north-west Highlands. Its height as measured by the Ordnance Survey is wrong - it is in fact only 2,898 feet, therefore about 11 feet short of being a Munro. So it has been downgraded to a Corbett.

Harry
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2007, 04:57:59 PM »

Downgraded to a Corbett...,now,THERE'S a turn of a phrase for ya!!
Interesting stuff,Harry.Thanks.

Some people on another forum tell me I likely fit in YSTR45,and that it is strongly connected to England.

Also,I checked at YSearch,and if memory serves,the genetic distance between you and I was something like 9,with 32 markers tested.

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hdw
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2007, 06:39:12 PM »

Oops, I could have phrased that better. I understand that the Corbetts are also good climbs. There's nothing magical about 3,000+ feet.

What is YSTR45? I don't understand much genetic jargon beyond the basic DYS mutations.

Harry
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2007, 02:07:22 PM »

I'm not real sure.
From what I can tell,they came up with a lot of new ways to classify people,after getting SNP tested.
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2007, 01:41:31 AM »

Hey Harry-I think I'm finally getting somewhere.
Here's a link to a thread I started on another forum.
Interesting stuff.
Be sure to look at the links that Jacques Beaugrand posted.It'll take you to some good stuff,by David Faux and John McEwan.
I guess I will join Jacques French DNA study,too.

http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=1225&pid=15240&st=0&#entry15240
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hdw
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2007, 06:17:06 PM »

Thanks, I've joined that forum, and there's a lot of interesting stuff there.

Harry
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2007, 12:23:46 AM »

What's your name on that forum?
I'll keep an eye out for ya...
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hdw
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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2007, 04:58:53 AM »

Harry.  I believe in keeping things simple (and not giving myself memory overload).

Harry
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Gary Corbett
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« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2008, 10:26:54 PM »

Well,Harry,I had wondered why there had been no posts from you for a while,on the other forum.
Just tonight,I found the thread where you announced that you were leaving.
I hope you'll consider coming back-although it's understandable if you don't.
Just wanted you to know that we all miss you,and hope you are all right.
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