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Author Topic: About R-L584 and the Jewish L584 cluster  (Read 1232 times)
Maliclavelli
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« on: April 20, 2014, 07:01:46 AM »

smal publishes this interesting post on Anthrogenica:
Today, 09:05 AM #28  smal Posts 45
                        At the moment we have only a single BigY result (271988, Goldschlager) from L584+ branch. Fortunately, there is possibility to compare its with Assyrian 13750 data from Rootsi at al. 2013.
        Level Z2103/Z2105
        1) positive for both 13750 Assyrian and 271988 Goldschlager
        Z2103/CTS1078+, Z2105+, CTS9416+, Y:14629851+
        2) positive for 271988 Goldschlager and unknown for 13750 Assyrian
        S20902+
        3) positive for 13750 Assyrian and unknown for 271988 Goldschlager
        Z2104/PF7575?, Z2107/CTS7340?, PF7585?, Y:6687319?
        Level PF7580/L584
        1) positive for both 13750 Assyrian and 271988 Goldschlager
        PF7580+
        L584+
        Y:2814664+
        Y:17673462+
        Y:22625609+
        Y:22656448+
        Y:22659944+
        Y:22625609+
        Y:22656448+
        Y:22659944+
-------------
Perhaps it would have been better if he had done also the Assyrian 13750 SNPs negative in Goldschlager, so we would have been able to calculate the MRCA between them, because my hypothesis, many times expressed to Goldschlager, was that his L584 weren't linked with the other Jewish L584, being so different at the STRs level (27 mutations out of 111 as AJL wrote on Anthrogenica).
We'll see with more data.

P.S. S20902 was one of the three SNPs I found on my Chromo2 in all the Z2105*. Now we know that it is upstream Z2106, whereas S12460 is my final SNP so far between Z2110 and CTS9219.
   
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 08:55:33 AM »

Assyrian 13750 has 45 SNPs downstream  Z2105*. Without L584 they are 44. 8 are in common withn Goldschlager, thus he has 36 singletons. If Goldschlager has about the same number, we have:

they have in common under Z2105 = 180x8=1440 years

they separated 180x36=6480 years ago.

P.S. Without also PF7580, a little less.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 09:04:25 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 06:09:43 AM »

I thank here smal not being able to do it on Anthrogenica:

    "Rathna asks me about the Assyrian 13750 SNPs negative in Goldschlager.
    From 45 SNPs specific for Assyrian 13750 from Rootsi at al. 2013 there are:
    1) 8 positive for both 13750 Assyrian and 271988 Goldschlager
    2) 2 (L943 and L945) positive for 13750 Assyrian and negative for 271988 Goldschlager
    3) 35 positive for 13750 Assyrian and unknown for 271988 Goldschlager".

I already did a calculation. Also by using 150 years for SNP (singleton) as Michal does for hg. R1a, there are 35 x 150 = 5250 years of separation from the Goldschlager's line and that of this Assyrian who is more linked to the other Jew Silver, having they in common the SNPs L943 and L945. Of course next data will say us which is the meaning of all that.
Of course we don't know the singletons of Goldschlager, but if my presupposition that there is a similar chip between Big Y and Rootsy et al. 2013, I expect that Goldschlager has a similar number of singletons. We do know when his BAM file is published, as Goldschlager is going to do.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 09:07:57 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 06:14:26 AM »

45475    Louis Silver Lithuania R1b1a2a1    
and
271988    Simsa Goldschlager b ca1800 Austria d 1879 Botosani Austria R1b1a2a1
have 24 mutations out 67 markers:
(454 x 24) : 134 = 81.3 generation, at 25 years for generation we have 2032.5 years, thus the usual method of calculation used so far has to be multiplied at least for a factor of 2.5 (150 years for SNP) or 3.09 (180 years for SNP).
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 08:47:23 AM »

smal adds:
"3) 35 positive for 13750 Assyrian and unknown for 271988 Goldschlager. 20 of them are found in the regions designated in the .bed file but not included in .vcf file. The other 10 are probably not sequenced. Bam file could say more".

Above all how many singletons Goldschlager will get. If they will be around 35, my calculation will be able to be kept for true.
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Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

Maliclavelli
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 09:00:09 AM »

smal writes on Anthrogenica:

"BigY FTDNA file of Goldschlager contains 154 SNPs designated as novel variants with respect to the reference sequence. The analysis has shown that
1) 90 of them are really located on the Z2103/Z2105 level or even are ancestral to this branch.
2) As I wrote above 6 SNPs are located on the L584/PF7580 level and shared with 13750 Assyrian.
3) the remaining 58 SNPs are at the moment unique to Goldschlager".


Thanks again, smal.
But one thing to ask you: you always put PF7580 and L584 on the same plane. Have you proofs of this? I.e. are we sure that both Carnevali and Aghinitei, tested PF7580+, are also L584+?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 09:04:21 AM by Maliclavelli » Logged

Maliclavelli


YDNA: R-S12460


MtDNA: K1a1b1e

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