World Families Forums - Scottish Clans and Septs

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
December 21, 2014, 10:25:41 AM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b-L21 (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  Scottish Clans and Septs
« previous next »
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Scottish Clans and Septs  (Read 2636 times)
lwrodgers63
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« on: November 30, 2013, 12:39:24 PM »

I'd like to start discussing Scots clans and their septs.  Those in my Ro(d)gers group who did 67 markers found many distant Scots surnames.  Seven of us tested positive for L1335, so we knew we were Scots.  Two of us tested positive for L1065--Pictish?  The four of us who upgraded to 111 markers lost everyone at 67-5 or worse who had done the 111-marker test.   This must just mean we're related back in the middle ages.  I've checked a few Scots clans online and found discussions of all the many septs and anglizations of Scots surnames. 

With Y-DNA  full genome results starting to come in and Big Y results promised in January,  we need to think about how the quirks of surname use may provide connections back in the 1400-1700s. I've seen examples of McKay alias McRorie in the late 1700s and other double names. 

Does anyone have a good reference or site for Scots surnames and septs?
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2013, 09:59:59 PM »

Here's what looks like a handy list of clan septs and dependents:

List of Clan Septs and Dependents
Logged

lwrodgers63
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2013, 11:35:02 PM »

Thanks much.  This is a great start.  It lists McRorie/MacRory, etc.(surname said to have been anglicized to Ro(d)gers) for the Clan MacDonald and clan MacLaren and I found several other Scots surnames that I match at 67 markers listed in other clans. 
Logged
rms2
Board Moderator
Guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5023


« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2013, 09:13:12 AM »

Thanks much.  This is a great start.  It lists McRorie/MacRory, etc.(surname said to have been anglicized to Ro(d)gers) for the Clan MacDonald and clan MacLaren and I found several other Scots surnames that I match at 67 markers listed in other clans.  

You're welcome. There's even a Stevens sept in Clan MacTavish, but my matches point to Wales, so, unless I get a Stevens match out of Scotland, I'll have to assume my ancestors weren't in that sept.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 04:24:10 PM by rms2 » Logged

Dave-V
New Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 2


« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2013, 12:53:22 PM »


Does anyone have a good reference or site for Scots surnames and septs?

The two main references that I'm aware of are Black's "The Surnames of Scotland" (1946) and Collins' "Scottish Clans and Family Encyclopedia" (1998).   I don't believe either is freely available in digital form but you can find them in libraries or there is a searchable snippet view of Black's at http://books.google.com/books?id=fQotAAAAMAAJ

Is there enough data yet to show whether y-DNA really correlates with clans?   In my case I know it doesn't... the major DNA group in our surname (a subgroup of L193) connects to a Scottish "superfamily" of 5-6 names (Vans, Little, Glendenning, Elliott, McClain) that have a strong Borders connection but no real clan affiliations.   Of course the clan system was less strong in the Lowlands anyway.

We did have a small branch of our surname who migrated up to Inverness and became affiliated with Clan Munro, which means the name shows up in Collins and Black associated with Munro.  But that branch died out by the 17th century and there was no other Munro association... it doesn't stop some family members from running around the Highland Games today in Munro kilts, but it's not really relevant to the history of L193 or of our surname.

Anyway, the one example certainly doesn't mean clan affiliations don't matter in general, but I've always wondered whether their influence was really strong enough on dependent families outside the main clan name.  At some point there should be enough data to analyze y-DNA against the wider clan affiliations for possible correlation, but I don't know if we've reached that point yet. 

Dave
Logged
scotsman
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 13


« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2013, 08:51:36 PM »


One problem that arises when you start to look at members of family groups in Scotland for DNA purposes is that it was a practice for families moving into a new area to adopt the name of the Chief of the Scottish Clan controlling the area.  In the Hebrides this name adoption practice lasted until the mid 1700s and years may vary in other areas of Scotland.  A senior member of Historic Scotland pointed out to me ths name adoption practice "the Glencoe MacDonalds are a good example of this, although subsequent tragic events were to prove it a very bad move indeed."  In the MacNeil Family Group DNA Study, when the group was at 212 members a few years back, the list of members had the following Haplotypes:


R1a Norse                                       7.2%
R1b Celtic (L165 Terminal Clade)     70.5%
I Viking (Raider Vikings I1 15.8%)   21.8%
J2                                                   0.5%

This is a good example that the Scottish family name is not always a good example of the Haplotype of Clan members.

One other problem with Scottish History is that a lot of it has come from folklore over the years and I am sure that with further SNP studies a lot of these problems, particularly with ancient migratory paths, will be resolved.

Angus


                                                       
 
Logged

Scotsman
lwrodgers63
Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 9


« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2013, 01:15:11 PM »

Thanks Dave and Angus.  I think what you've said helps explain the large number of different Scottish surnames my group is seeing at 67 markers tested.  I misspoke earlier in this thread, a few 67-5 and 67-6 matches for two in my group to Scots- surname people survived at 111 marker testing. I'm going to run the TiP calculation for a 111-10 match, a Rogers and a MacDougall, (I have access to the Rogers FTDNA account) to get an estimate of when they might have connected.

It looks like I should read some Scottish history while waiting for my Big Y results.

Larry
Logged
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.08 seconds with 18 queries.