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Author Topic: Using 67 and 111-marker Matches to Locate the Y-DNA Homeland  (Read 347 times)
rms2
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« on: November 28, 2013, 10:38:38 AM »

This thread is going to start off with my own personal genetic genealogical quest, but please feel free to post about your own. Maybe we can help each other.

My current terminal SNP is DF41 (L21>DF13>DF41), also known as S524. I belong to a haplotype cluster that has been christened "41-1123" by Mike Walsh. It is characterized by the following marker values: 390=23; 385=11-11; 447<=24; 464b=16; 534<=14; 413a<=22. The following values are also usually found in the cluster but not always: 458=16 and 439<=11.

Thus far, DF41 has been found mostly in Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, with a smattering in western England and one in SE France.

All of the men in my haplotype cluster who have tested for DF41 are DF41+. I have tested DF41+ with both FTDNA and BritainsDNA, so our DF41+ status is beyond reasonable doubt.

In our haplotype cluster, thus far, just three men are able to trace their y-dna lines to Europe. One of those, Samuel, kit N104746, traces his y-dna mdka (most distant known ancestor) to the village of Llanafan-fawr, Powys, Wales, and the 17th century. Self, kit 53479, traces his y-dna mdka to Melksham, Wiltshire, England, also in the 17th century. There is a Welsh version of the name Self, Selyf, but I am not sure the former is derived from the latter. Beddoes, kit # unknown, has a Welsh surname but was himself born in Worcester in western England, not far from the Welsh border.

Samuel is a 105/111 match for me. Self is more distant: 17 off at 111 markers.

Here are my closest matches (outside my known close relatives), beginning with 111 markers:

Stephens, kit 208061  - 107/111 (MDKA born 1798 in Caswell County, North
                                      Carolina)

Stevens, kit 212967 - 106/111 (MDKA born 1827 in Indiana)

Samuel, kit N104746 - 105/111 (MDKA born c. 1670 in Llanafan-fawr, Wales)

Webb, kit 163684 - 103/111 (MDKA born 1700 in New Jersey)

Beddoes, kit # unknown - 65/67 (MDKA not given, but Beddoes himself was born in
                                          Worcester, England, and told me his family was from
                                          Shropshire)

Price, kit 28470 - 60/67 (MDKA born 1730 in Virginia)

The surnames Samuel, Beddoes, and Price are Welsh. Webb is an English surname, but common in Shropshire on the Welsh border. Stevens/Stephens can also be a Welsh surname, but it is found in England, Scotland, and Ireland, as well. It is very common in Cornwall.

As you can see, the only matches I have with a traceable connection to the Old Country are Samuel and Beddoes. Both surnames are Welsh. Samuel has a solid paper trail to Wales. Beddoes was born in Worcester but says his family is from Shropshire, both locations very near the Welsh border.

Given all of these facts, and the fact that much of what is now western England was once part of Wales, it is my current belief that my y-dna ancestry is Welsh or at the very least British (as in Britons rather than English or Anglo-Saxon).

Any comments? Have any of you used your higher order matches to zero in on a possible homeland in this way?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 11:05:14 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2013, 11:33:14 AM »

I neglected to mention that my surname is Stevens. My y-dna mdka is my 3rd great grandfather, Auguston Stevens, who was born 05 February 1804 in Wheeling, West Virginia (part of Virginia at that time).
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lwrodgers63
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2013, 09:19:38 PM »

Thanks for starting this topic.  I think most of us have hit the infamous brick wall early in our genealogy work.  Burned courthouses, lack of living family (most I know waited too long to start quizzing uncles, aunts and grandparents), and few family bibles or stories stalled us.

Then came DNA testing. But while I found lots of matches, I haven't found any Ro(d)gers connections.  Three in our Y-DNA group can trace back to John Rogers b. 1617 UK, came to Jamestown,VA 1635.   This was at least a start back in time.  Most of us in my group can only trace back to the early 1800s, but we do see a similar migration from VA to NC/SC, and then on to GA, MS, KY, TN, and west.  Then, a number of us upgraded to 67 markers and lots of distant matches with Scots surnames appeared.  Then several of us tested positive for L1335 and two of us for L1065---we're Scots!  But how?  A few of us upgraded again to 111 markers and things mostly "blew up".  Those tested  only have about 3-4 matches at 111.

So now we have Full Genome, Chromo2 and the Big Y.  Early results indicate 20-40 new SNPs for a number of those tested and we have word of an L1335 MacGregor with 21 new SNPs.  Maybe this swill get us to the point in time where surnames began to be used.
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rms2
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2013, 11:09:27 AM »

Thanks for starting this topic.  I think most of us have hit the infamous brick wall early in our genealogy work.  Burned courthouses, lack of living family (most I know waited too long to start quizzing uncles, aunts and grandparents), and few family bibles or stories stalled us.

Then came DNA testing. But while I found lots of matches, I haven't found any Ro(d)gers connections.  Three in our Y-DNA group can trace back to John Rogers b. 1617 UK, came to Jamestown,VA 1635.   This was at least a start back in time.  Most of us in my group can only trace back to the early 1800s, but we do see a similar migration from VA to NC/SC, and then on to GA, MS, KY, TN, and west.  Then, a number of us upgraded to 67 markers and lots of distant matches with Scots surnames appeared.  Then several of us tested positive for L1335 and two of us for L1065---we're Scots!  But how?  A few of us upgraded again to 111 markers and things mostly "blew up".  Those tested  only have about 3-4 matches at 111.

So now we have Full Genome, Chromo2 and the Big Y.  Early results indicate 20-40 new SNPs for a number of those tested and we have word of an L1335 MacGregor with 21 new SNPs.  Maybe this swill get us to the point in time where surnames began to be used.

That's a good example of STR and SNP testing working together to draw a bead on your y-dna ancestral homeland.

As you can see, I have some fairly close Stephens/Stevens matches, but unfortunately none of them can get out of North America either. I have to depend on matches outside my surname and on SNP testing to make the case.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 11:09:50 AM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2013, 11:20:58 AM »

One problem for people of Welsh y-dna ancestry is the Welsh patronymic naming system. Under it, a large number of men with the same y-dna grandfather could all have different surnames. For example, say a man named Hugh had four sons: John, Owen, Thomas, and William. All of them would be known by the surname ap Hugh (Pugh or Hughes), for son of Hugh. Their sons, however, would have the surnames ap John (Jones), ab (ab when the name that follows begins with a vowel) Owen (Bowen), ap Thomas (Thomas), and ap William (Williams). Four different surnames, but the same y-dna ancestry. The confusion would only multiply with more sons, grandsons, and great grandsons, etc., and repeats of given names.

I wonder if the Scots, who also had a patronymic system (mac this and mac that) suffer from the same problem.

After all, mac and ap (and ab) are really the same thing. The hard "c" ending in mac is just Q-Celtic, while the "p" and "b" are P-Celtic, and ap and ab used to be map and mab.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 10:32:26 AM by rms2 » Logged

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