World Families Forums - How did L21 get to the British Isles and Ireland?

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 23, 2014, 07:15:49 PM
Home Help Search Login Register

+  World Families Forums
|-+  General Forums - Note: You must Be Logged In to post. Anyone can browse.
| |-+  R1b-L21 (Moderator: rms2)
| | |-+  How did L21 get to the British Isles and Ireland?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Down Print
Author Topic: How did L21 get to the British Isles and Ireland?  (Read 2458 times)
glentane
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2013, 01:41:37 PM »

Ooooh, ta, Dubthach, that's exactly the sort of thing.
(bookmarks  the ref.)

I suppose the only thing, well, two things, that put a stick in the spokes of the process on the Big Island first, and then Ireland, were the adoption (several times over :) ) of Christianity and monogamy, however nominal, and then primogeniture (as opposed to gavelkind/partible inheritance type arrangements).
On the easternmost island the ground may well have been prepared by centuries of Romanitas, as the Latins seem to to have been peculiarly monogamous, compared to even german barbarians. Good way of giving a citizen army some "skin in the game", I suppose, they themselves being highly mindful of the example of, for ex., the Spartans. Less crucial to a highly ranked society of knight-like über-warriors, plus lightly armed 'cannon'-fodder.

Otherwise who knows where we'd be now in Britain? Every man a "prince", like Nigeria, or mediaeval Wales?

Even my quite unreasonably religious minor gentry forebears managed several wives sequentially on occasion. In the senior line, off the top of my head, mother's side, Tudor times, two wives, nineteen children, himself having ancestors churning out up to seven sons apiece every few generations, who all had to be at least minimally provided for (at least until they died in battle), if only to save face, thus giving them a reproductive & health advantage (even in plagues) until the largesse trickling down failed to reach them, and their great-grandchildren ended up as coalminers and the like. Which is what the honour-obsessed Celtic systems sought to avoid.
Even today each of my parents' surnames still have several thousand representatives, in the county they were first recorded as being granted land.
Bit of a dead loss trying to connect them all up though. Only DNA seems to work ... peas in a pod :)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 04:45:28 PM by glentane » Logged
Dubhthach
Old Hand
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 273


« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2013, 03:02:34 PM »

In case of Ireland monogamy was resisted when the Jurors/Judges were able to point to parts of Old Testament that had "Hebrew Chieftains" with more then one wife. That and Divorce was widespread in Ireland. In Nichol's book he gives an example of an english account that claimed that 90%+ of weddings in Munster (among the landed gentry) were Civil in nature as oppose to religous, the main reason was that Divorce was available in case of civil marriages. -- Nichol thinks this is an exaggeration for propaganda reasons.

Even leaving aside this as illegitimacy was a completely foreign concept to "Gaelic Irish" society it didn't matter if sons were born to a concubine or to a legitimate wife they were of equal legal status.

Primogeniture is only something you start hearing about in context of Tudor Conquest. For example through the policy of "Surrender and Regrant".

In context of Maguires mentioned above it's worth pointing to the high-level of L513/L69 (Airgialla II cluster), alot of surnames in this cluster are all branches of Maguires dating from the 12th - 14th century.
Logged
glentane
Senior Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2013, 04:27:45 PM »

It's remarkable how deep one can go on digging into this and come up with more and more modelling parameters to support Rich's contention that sub-312 flavas (in our case L21 and even DF13*) expanded like mold on an agar plate for some reason, in the not-too-distant past.

Treading as circumspectly as I can (this stuff can on occasion be like giving dynamite to children, people go bananas over it), it's worth recalling the tale of Cúchulainn and Éimhear. A crucial plot-point is that mac Nesa reputedly had jus primae noctis (coll cétingen) over ALL his subjects.
Which must have put quite a bit of mileage on the old chariot invoices, getting round all that lot, as well as giving those lucky husbands a good sound reason to fight shy of primogeniture for heritable purposes, thus cunningly impoverishing the whole lot and increasing their dependence on lordly patronage and/or military employment. And yet again gave those single eldest sons (if that's how they turned out) a reason to fight for the king, and not for their own mother's husband and his male kin, against him (and his other sons, their half-brothers). Stops the king getting outnumbered by ambitious underlings, be they kin or not, maybe? (Just possibly could be interpreted as "Xtreme fosterage", and that was an outstandingly important institution in their societies, frequently overriding paternity).

Not that this mediaeval yarn is any more justified in its premises than similar continent-wide beliefs in a (conveniently always just-previous) droit-du-seigneur.
Ay caramba!, where's that gin got to? This stuff would put a hole in your skull so it would.

And that's net of the possibly innumerable and productive one-night-stands both enthusiastically voluntary, and involuntary that the likes of Cúchulainn, Conchobor and other prime "alpha-males" were assigned (Deirdre, or Aiofe, etc. anyone? In Conchobar's case even, scurrilously, his own mother? and sister).
Apart from the psychopathic violence, and superb poetry, these folk were running major-league post-Urnfield swingers' clubs ...

Now it's not that the tales are in any way reflective of history as we understand it, or that it was even credible to a mediaeval Gael. It simply had to be conceivable. Along with singing swan-girls, or shape-shifting hags. Sort of a 3rd level of Truth, if you see what I'm havering about?
For instance, I can conceive of a WWII bomber being found on the Moon, in a way that an Iron Age peasant could never do, but couldn't ever believe it, and simultaneously I am a fully-paid-up creditor of the Apollo landings, which would as equally be utterly incomprehensible (I hope!) to our prehistoric Celt. In the same way, we cannot back-project the division between myth, tradition, remembrance and outright twenty-dollar lies, for the peri-historical past. Uugh need ibuprofen ...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 05:10:07 PM by glentane » Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


SEO light theme by © Mustang forums. Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC

Page created in 0.078 seconds with 18 queries.