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Author Topic: How did L21 get to the British Isles and Ireland?  (Read 2818 times)
OConnor
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« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2013, 05:48:52 AM »

(dhubsith)

I can guess that DF13** entered the Isles at an early time, and some of it's downstream markers were hatched there. I don't feel confident saying all continental DF13 came to the Isles, and so some of it's snp's were probably continental in my thoughts.  

I believe in time I will find my snp below DF13. I suspect it will be a limited snp found in S/E Ireland. And I suspect it will be connected to the name Murphy.

I don't know when, or from where my ancestor arrived in Ireland. Maybe my dys458=18 hints at Scotland?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 05:51:31 AM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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dhubsith
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« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2013, 11:26:45 AM »

I agree that there would have been DF13 still on the continent, and some of the snp's could be continental in origin, there was a lot of back-and-forthing. I would say though that the first DF13's to come to the Isles would have come before ANY of the downstream snp's had arisen.

I can't get away from the notion of "extreme good fortune" being the lot of the first DF13 arrivals. I don't know how else you could explain how so many DIFFERENT descendents of DF13 survived and thrived. I would guess that their "edge" was dairy farming, that was so well suited to practically all of the Isles.

The advantage the Celts later enjoyed, the abundant sources of tin and copper, were not, I think, the first priority of the early DF13 settlers, they woiuld have been focused on the survival of themselves and their cattle.
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Dave-V
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« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2013, 04:03:54 PM »

I voted for Bronze Age and the Beakers although I'm no expert on population migrations; just from the age of L21 and the likelihood that it expanded quickly early on. 

Aren't we oversimplifying the question though?  Isn't it just as possible/likely that L21 arrived in the Isles over and over again, so it really arrived perhaps in the Neolithic (if it's old enough) AND in the Bronze Age AND in the Iron Age etc?  Even without major invasions, there was enough interaction with the continent for continual re-introduction.   And that therefore at what point our specific L21 ancestors got to the Isles may be completely unrelated to how it got there first. 

I'm not saying the poll question isn't interesting, I'm just saying we don't really know enough yet to draw the inference that our ancestors took the same route :-).   And that therefore the Beakers may well account for some of us, the later Celts others, and so on, even up to the Vikings and Normans. 

I know some scenarios are statistically more likely than others based on current evidence, but it's always been hard for me to identify myself with an early culture/language/group through statistics, especially when it only really takes one guy bucking the trend to throw it off. 
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rms2
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2013, 04:09:27 PM »

I just got my Chromo2 Complete results from BritainsDNA today. It is interesting that the description they give of "R1b-S145" (L21), which they have christened "Pretani" (at least in the Isles), actually says it was probably brought to the British Isles and Ireland by the Beaker Folk.

When I get the chance later I will post some quotes.

That is quite a development.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 04:10:14 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2013, 08:54:42 PM »

Quote from: BritainsDNA
Further downstream from your S116 marker, you tested positive for the more specific S145 marker. This means you are certainly descended from the early peoples to inhabit Britain and Ireland. In addition to being skilled in metalworking and mining, your ancestors were principally farmers, and it seems very likely that they brought Celtic languages to Britain and Ireland. Irish and Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish and Manx still survive, just, and their ancient vocabulary describes the land, the seasons, the weather, flora and fauna in remarkable detail. Dialects of Old Welsh were once spoken all over England and Britain and some of our most ancient place-names, towns such as Dover, Lincoln, and perhaps even London remember the old speech of our nation.

It may well be that the spread of your marker and Beaker Culture all over western Europe encouraged the spread of the Indo-European family of languages. This mirrors the expansion of farming across similar latitudes, east to India and west as far as Britain and Ireland. And while we may believe Sanskrit to be very different from English, there are in fact deep similarities. The words for numbers, for example, are clearly cognate.

The people known as the Pretani, likely carriers of the S145 marker, gave the British their name. It was conferred by a Greek traveller, Pytheas, the first to record his journeys to the north. Pretannike was the name he gave Britain, what the Romans adapted as Britannia. It originally meant the People of the Tattoos and it remembered the British habit of body decoration.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 08:54:57 PM by rms2 » Logged

rms2
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« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2013, 09:28:14 PM »

Quote from: BritainsDNA
Your ancestors, those who carry the R1b-S145 marker, probably came to Britain and Ireland some time around 2,500BC and after a fine pottery they made, they were called the Beaker Folk.
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eochaidh
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« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2013, 01:12:07 AM »

These Pretani are known as Cruithne in Ireland. The Q-Celtic/P-Celtic is easily seen in the first part of each name.
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Y-DNA: R1b DF23
mtDNA: T2g
rms2
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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2013, 08:00:20 AM »

These Pretani are known as Cruithne in Ireland. The Q-Celtic/P-Celtic is easily seen in the first part of each name.

Yeah, I know. I'm not sure exactly why BritainsDNA chose to refer to all of S145/L21 as "Pretani", except that I think they are using it as a sort of general designation for "Insular Celt." It may have something to do with the fact that the Greek geographer Pytheas dubbed all of the Isles "Prettanike" and their people "Pretani" in the 4th century BC.
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OConnor
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2013, 03:35:48 PM »

?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 03:42:12 PM by OConnor » Logged

R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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rms2
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2013, 08:55:00 PM »

?

Yeah, well . . .

I think maybe they would have been better off with "Insular Celt", but what the heck.
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Heber
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« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2013, 02:50:19 PM »

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/21/the-genographic-project-returns-to-ireland-to-reveal-dna-results/

WOW. 88% Y DNA R1b. I suspect mainly L21 and a large proportion M222.
mtDNA 77% mainly H.
I don't necessarily agree with the Mesolithic/Neolithic Age and would position it later at Copper/Bronze Age, earlier than the traditional Iron Age Migration of the Celts. This raises the question were these the people who built the Megalithic monuments, Newgrange, Knowth, Dowth, Carrowmore and early agriculture Ceide Fields. I would like to see a lot more data on SNPs below L21.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ftdna/
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 02:54:54 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2013, 08:26:31 AM »

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/11/21/the-genographic-project-returns-to-ireland-to-reveal-dna-results/

WOW. 88% Y DNA R1b. I suspect mainly L21 and a large proportion M222.
mtDNA 77% mainly H.
I don't necessarily agree with the Mesolithic/Neolithic Age and would position it later at Copper/Bronze Age, earlier than the traditional Iron Age Migration of the Celts. This raises the question were these the people who built the Megalithic monuments, Newgrange, Knowth, Dowth, Carrowmore and early agriculture Ceide Fields. I would like to see a lot more data on SNPs below L21.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ftdna/


That 88% doesn't surprise me. Ireland has been regarded for years as around 90% R1b. Busby et al has Ireland at 70-80% L21+ (70-80% of the total, not just of the R1b), certainly most of it not M222.

I don't think R1b of any kind was present for Neolithic megalith building.

The only megalithic tomb thus far to yield up some ancient y-dna was the Dolmen of La Pierre Fritte near Paris. Both of the bodies tested from there were I-M26 (predicted from STRs).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 08:36:34 AM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2013, 02:50:41 PM »

The results announced are quiet dramatic

Y-DNA
Late Mesolithic Neolithic
R1b - 88%
Bronze Age- Viking Period
I, R1a - 12%
I do not agree with this as I would have expected the expansion of R1b to be Late Neolithic - Copper - Bronze Age. The R1b number is dramatic.
Perhaps they will adjust the period once they publish the downstream SNPs.

mtDNA
Late Mesolithic, Neolithic
H, J,K,T2,V, X - 77%
Hunter Gatherer
U,U4,U5, U8 - 18%
Bronze Age, Viking Period
I, T1 - 7%

Again I do not agree with this and would expect H to be late Neolithic, Copper, Bronze Age.
My own research would indicate that H was the dominant mtDNA Haplogroup.
I would expect R1b-L11 and H to be associated with the Bell Beaker expansion out of Iberia in the late Neolithic and Bronze age as supported by a number of studies.
I see R1b-M269 as the Neolithic expansion out of Anatolia.

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/mtdna-haplogroup-h-and-origin-of.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html

I would expect the majority of R1b to be L21 and the majority of L21 to be DF49-M222.
Genographic have not published this breakdown but they must have this information as the Geno 2.0 chip is used and they have discovered 32 SNPs under M222.
It will be interesting to get the new Phylogeny of M222.

I have done my own analysis of L21 (using Mikes L21 project) in Connacht and have found that the highest frequency in Mayo is M222 followed by L513 and Z255.
Surprisingly Galway is dominated by DF21.

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ftdna/

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/ftdna/

I hope this is a preliminary announcement and we will get the detail in due course.
As the tests were part of a Genographic research project, I assume they will be integrated into the Genographic database.
I will contact the Mayo organisers to see if they can remind the testers to transfer their results to FTDNA and fill out their MyStory on Genographic so that we can find matches.
I am very appreciative to Genographic for the opportunity to increase our understanding of Population Genetics in Ireland.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 02:14:51 PM by Heber » Logged

Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2013, 08:36:17 PM »

I agree with you: the R1b in Ireland arrived in the Bronze Age.

But it is quite a step for Spencer Wells and company to move R1b up to the Late Mesolithic/Neolithic from the Paleolithic where they had us before.

On another thread in the R1b General subforum I posted a quote from an article about Day 2 of the recent 2013 Family Tree DNA Conference, in which Dr. Michael Hammer presented his views on R1b in Europe. Here it is again:

Quote
. . . This evidence supports a recent spread of haplogroup R lineages in western Europe about 5K years ago. This also supports evidence that P311 moved into Europe after the Neolithic agricultural transition and nearly displaced the previously existing western European Neolithic Y, which appears to be G2a.

This same pattern does not extrapolate to mitochondrial DNA where there is continuity.

What conferred advantage to these post Neolithic men? What was that advantage?

Dr. Hammer then grouped the major subgroups of haplogroup R-P3111 [sic] and found the following clusters.

U106 is clustered in Germany
L21 clustered in the British Isles
U152 has an Alps epicenter . . .


I already posted this quote from BritainsDNA here in this thread:

Quote
Your ancestors, those who carry the R1b-S145 marker, probably came to Britain and Ireland some time around 2,500BC and after a fine pottery they made, they were called the Beaker Folk.

I think Hammer and Wilson have it right.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 08:36:42 PM by rms2 » Logged

Heber
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« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2013, 02:30:54 PM »

I agree with the position of Hammer and Wilson but not necessarily with the map presented by Hammer.
I believe the key SNPs involved in the expansion of the Phylogenetic Tree are DF27, DF13 and L2 with DF27 being the most extreme. This should give us some clues to the expansion of L11.
The results of the Genographic project in Mayo and Asturias should confirm this if only they would publish the detailed results.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.article-info
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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2013, 02:49:24 PM »

I agree with the position of Hammer and Wilson but not necessarily with the map presented by Hammer.
I believe the key SNPs involved in the expansion of the Phylogenetic Tree are DF27, DF13 and L2 with DF27 being the most extreme. This should give us some clues to the expansion of L11.
The results of the Genographic project in Mayo and Asturias should confirm this if only they would publish the detailed results.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.article-info

I would say P312 and U106.
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Heber
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« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2013, 03:24:29 PM »

One to three men fathered most western Europeans?

Here is the latest FGS paper on the expansion of the Phylogenetic Tree from the Chris Tyler Smith team.
Who were the three men? U106, P312 or DF27, DF13 and L2.

"The authors write: "We constrained the parameter values so
that R1b could not expand before the estimated TMRCA of the sampled R1b chromosomes [18], and the model favored an immediate expansion of the lineage, hence the expansion at approximately 12 KYA."

It may sound far-fetched but it's certainly possible. After all, no R1b has been found in Europe before a Bell Beaker site from the 3rd millennium BC and today many Europeans (most in western Europe) belong to this haplogroup. As more Y chromosomes are sampled from ancient Europe, it will become clear if the R1b frequency actually shot from non-existence to ubiquity over a short span of time, and the Y chromosomes after the transition will be practically clones of each other.


Investigative Genetics 2013, 4:25 doi:10.1186/2041-2223-4-25

Modeling the contrasting Neolithic male lineage expansions in Europe and Africa

Michael J Sikora et al.

Abstract (provisional)

Background

Patterns of genetic variation in a population carry information about the prehistory of the population, and for the human Y chromosome an especially informative phylogenetic tree has previously been constructed from fully-sequenced chromosomes. This revealed contrasting bifurcating and starlike phylogenies for the major lineages associated with the Neolithic expansions in sub-Saharan Africa and Western Europe, respectively.

Results

We used coalescent simulations to investigate the range of demographic models most likely to produce the phylogenetic structures observed in Africa and Europe, assessing the starting and ending genetic effective population sizes, duration of the expansion, and time when expansion ended. The best-fitting models in Africa and Europe are very different. In Africa, the expansion took about 12 thousand years, ending very recently; it started from approximately 40 men and numbers expanded approximately 50-fold. In Europe, the expansion was much more rapid, taking only a few generations and occurring as soon as the major R1b lineage entered Europe; it started from just one to three men, whose numbers expanded more than a thousandfold.

Conclusions

Although highly simplified, the demographic model we have used captures key elements of the differences between the male Neolithic expansions in Africa and Europe, and is consistent with archaeological findings.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/11/one-to-three-men-fathered-most-western.html

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Heber


 
R1b1a2a1a1b4  L459+ L21+ DF21+ DF13+ U198- U106- P66- P314.2- M37- M222- L96- L513- L48- L44- L4- L226- L2- L196- L195- L193- L192.1- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L148- L144- L130- L1-
Paternal L21* DF21


Maternal H1C1



rms2
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« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2013, 03:40:43 PM »

If you read the provisional pdf of the report you will notice it says that R1b likely expanded 4-5,000 years ago.

Quote
If we had used the more likely 4 to 5 KYA estimate of the R1b TMRCA from the rho statistic [18], the expansion in the current model would have been placed close to this time, well within the Neolithic and, interestingly, also close to the time of establishment of the major European mtDNA haplogroup, H, approximately 6 KYA [7,8]. The rapidity of the R1b expansion and the large increase in population size are most consistent with migration and population replacement, issues debated by archaeologists but favored by the aDNA data [5-9].
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glentane
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« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2013, 07:23:50 PM »

These Pretani are known as Cruithne in Ireland. The Q-Celtic/P-Celtic is easily seen in the first part of each name.
The social relations pertaining to these "sea-divided Britons", as far as can be ascertained, are quite tortuous enough in themselves.
To quote from a very old (but reasonably sound) book.
Quote
Dr. Trotter, in the valuable books which he called Galloway Gossip, mentions and describes at some length, a certain 'breed' among the Galwegians who were called 'Creenies'; they were reckoned 'foreigners,' and were considered to be descendants of the Irish 'Picts.' Most of them were in the Rinns. Now 'Creenie ' is plainly Cruithnigh, the plural of Cruithneach, and nothing is more likely, one may say certain, than that the 'Creenies' were immigrants from the Cruithnean part of Ulster, facing Galloway. To the English chroniclers the terms 'Cruithnigh' and 'Picti' were synonymous, so they naturally used the latter in Latin.
but ...
Quote
The 'Creenies,' he informs us, were also called 'Gossocks.' In the name Gos-patrick and other names of persons, gos represents Welsh gwas, a servant - 'servant of Patrick '; Gosmungo, 'servant of Mungo,' and so on. In the Book of Llandaf a certain cleric bears the name of Guassauc, 'servant.' As a common noun gwasog means 'a servile person, a person in a servile condition,' and it is this term which has been preserved in Galloway tradition as another name for the 'Creenies.' It was the name by which they were known among the British population and it indicates their status in the community. Far from owning the soil, the so-called Picts of Galloway were serfs of the Britons or at best rent-paying vassals: when applied to the Galwegians as a whole the name was a term of opprobrium.  In Ireland the Cruithnigh were vassals of the Gael.

Though we have no means of knowing at what precise period these Cruithnigh came to Galloway, it is evident that they came when Welsh was still spoken there. Their own language at the time of their migration was certainly Gaelic.

To stir the pot a bit more, a surname occurring on either side of the North Channel is McBratney, i.e. when Gaeilge/Gàidhlig was the vernacular in a still later period (in either or both places), it indicated a man with a "British" (i.e. brythonic? but not necessarily cymric-speaking or whatever) father.

You can go mad with this stuff, you know ...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:25:02 AM by glentane » Logged
glentane
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« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2013, 08:08:12 PM »

Ooops, forgot. I can't decide. L21? Not a clue. Between insular late neolithic through to .. pfft ... middle bronze age? Somewhere between the building of the Boyne/Orkney tombs through to even as late as Deverel-Rimbury.
Nice and tight, eh? Only a millennium or so :)

Hereditary "aristocracies" of means can very quickly squeeze out rival yDNA lines in confined spaces, like the Isles.
In an article I cannot now for the life of me track down, something like the CBA magazine "British Archaeology" (a book review in the back, IIRC) from about twenty years ago, I saw this process only half-jokingly proposed as "Mac Fhirbhisigh's Law" after some mournful conclusion of the great scholar's ruminations on the fact that a once-numerous and mighty clan had vanished completely from their ancestral tract, even by his day.

Something along the lines of ".. and so it is, that a greater kindred will always drive out a lesser."

Not by force of arms, which one might expect, which I think was his point.
By inheritance and relentless subdivision of the territory over generations, droit-du-seigneur-ish practices, "soft" polygamy by high-status male kin-groups, grabbing odd parcels of land as heritor's fields (kind of death-duty, by the proprietor on his tenants), and other pinch-and-shove tactics short of outright violence, sanctioned by whatever customary Laws were in place.
 Couple this with periodic food-crises and even famines, or epidemics, in which the children of the poor succumbed disproportionately, or those with a "right" to a particular lifestyle (e.g. game-hunting, cattle-keeping (and raiding!) could skip through unscathed, and I can quite see how one Y-line could easily go to saturation-point in not much time at all, absent any viable internal opposition or foreign encroachers.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 06:28:59 AM by glentane » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2013, 09:40:21 PM »

That makes sense to me. That is why it is not necessary for L21 to have been in Ireland and the other Celtic countries all that long in order to have achieved predominance. It just had to get there at the right time and under circumstances favorable to rapid expansion.
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glentane
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« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2013, 12:12:30 PM »

Phew, I wasn't imagining things after all ..
Quote
Mac Fhirbhisigh's law, which states:

    It is customary for great lords that, when their families and kindreds multiply, their clients and their followers are oppressed, injured and wasted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leabhar_na_nGenealach

And to that we can add the selective effect of tribal warfare, which generally results in the effective extermination or expulsion of the defeated clan males, and their children, older women, and so on being enslaved (and not infrequently 'sold' abroad).
Every scrap of food and inch of land is required to pay off/support one's own less genealogically senior and more indigent spear-carriers. No room for extra mouths, unless they can be made use of somehow, as concubines and slaves.
If a lineage was "on a roll" militarily, under conditions of semi-permanent clan warfare (like the mediaeval, and presumably prehistoric, celtic-speaking Isles), its growth might tend to follow some sort of exponent or power function until the (still-squabbling) factions were haplotypically indistinguishable in the male line (by present methods), and the whole thing gets reclassified from "genocide" to "civil war/dynastic struggle". Or something like that?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 12:25:19 PM by glentane » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2013, 06:09:37 PM »

Phew, I wasn't imagining things after all ..
Quote
Mac Fhirbhisigh's law, which states:

    It is customary for great lords that, when their families and kindreds multiply, their clients and their followers are oppressed, injured and wasted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leabhar_na_nGenealach

And to that we can add the selective effect of tribal warfare, which generally results in the effective extermination or expulsion of the defeated clan males, and their children, older women, and so on being enslaved (and not infrequently 'sold' abroad).
Every scrap of food and inch of land is required to pay off/support one's own less genealogically senior and more indigent spear-carriers. No room for extra mouths, unless they can be made use of somehow, as concubines and slaves.
If a lineage was "on a roll" militarily, under conditions of semi-permanent clan warfare (like the mediaeval, and presumably prehistoric, celtic-speaking Isles), its growth might tend to follow some sort of exponent or power function until the (still-squabbling) factions were haplotypically indistinguishable in the male line (by present methods), and the whole thing gets reclassified from "genocide" to "civil war/dynastic struggle". Or something like that?

Very useful. Thanks, glentane!
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« Reply #48 on: December 15, 2013, 07:33:55 AM »

A good read is "Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland during the Middle Ages" by Kenneth Nichol, it was originally published in 1976 but has been re-published recently enough.

The Kindle version is about $10:
http://www.amazon.com/Gaelic-Gaelicised-Ireland-Kenneth-Nicholls-ebook/dp/B007ZQY61G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387107100&sr=8-1&keywords=gaelic+and+gaelicised+ireland

Here's an extract that I typed out before on another forum.

Quote
One of the most important phenomena in a clan-based society is that of
expansion from the top downwards. The seventeenth-century Irish scholar and
genealogist Dualtagh Mac Firbisigh remarked that 'as the sons and families of
the rulers multiplied, so their subjects and followers were squeezed out and
withered away; and this phenomenon, the expansion of the ruling or dominant
stocks at the expense of the remainder, is a normal feature in societies of this
type. It has been observed of the modern Basotho of South Africa that 'there is
a constant displacement of commoners by royals [i.e. members of the royal clan]
and of collateral royals by the direct descendants of the ruling prince;, and
this could have been said without adaptation , of any important Gaelic or
Gaelicized lordship of late medieval Ireland.

In Fermanagh, for example the kingship of the Maguires began only with the
accession of Donn Mór in 1282 and the ramification of the family - with the
exception of one or two small and territorially unimportant septs - began with
the sons of the same man. the spread of his descendants can be seen by the
genealogical tract called Geinelaighe Fhearmanach; by 1607 they must have been
in the possession of at least three-quarters of the total soil of Fermanagh,
having displaced or reduced the clans which had previously held it. The rate
which an Irish clan could itself must not be underestimated. Turlough an fhíona
O'Donnell, lord of Tirconnell (d. 1423) had eighteen sons (by ten different
women) and fifty-nine grandsons in the male line. Mulmora O'Reilly, the lord of
East Brefny, who died in 1566, had at least fifty-eight O'Reilly grandsons.
Philip Maguire, lord of Fermanagh (d. 1395) had twenty sons by eight mothers,
and we know of at least fifty grandsons. Oliver Burke of Tirawley (two of whose
became Lower Mac William although he himself had never held that position) left
at least thirty-eight grandsons in the male line.

Irish law drew no distinction in matters of inheritance between the legitimate
and the illegitimate and permitted the affiliation of children by their mother's
declaration (see Chapter 4), and the general sexual permissiveness of
medieval Irish society must have allowed a rate of multiplication approaching
that which is permitted by the polygyny practised in, for instance, the clan societies
of southern Africa already cited.

The mention of Oliver Burke of Tirawley is an example of Cambro-Norman's "becoming more  Irish then the Irish themselves" -- in case of the Burkes of Mayo they even used the inaguration site of the previous rulers as well as the practise of rotating the "MacWilliam" title between each of the separate branches of the family.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 07:36:37 AM by Dubhthach » Logged
rms2
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« Reply #49 on: December 15, 2013, 10:19:42 AM »

I'm glad you reposted that, Paul. It is very appropriate to this topic and to the expansion of R1b in Europe 4k-5k years ago.

I'm going to copy and paste it elsewhere, but I'll give you credit for providing it.

BTW, my y-dna 3rd great grandfather's brothers married two sisters with the surname McGuire.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 10:20:57 AM by rms2 » Logged

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