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rms2
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« on: October 28, 2013, 02:46:25 PM »

How did L21 get to the British Isles and Ireland?
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rms2
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2013, 02:07:08 PM »

Please vote in the poll.
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Bren123
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2013, 05:08:28 PM »

Please vote in the poll.

I would like to know who voted for the LGM?
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LDJ
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 09:05:47 PM »

There are a few holdouts for that old theory still out there. I don't agree with it, but I am glad whoever it was voted.
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rms2
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2013, 11:20:29 AM »

Please vote in the poll.

I would like to know who voted for the LGM?

I guess you voted for an Iron Age arrival for L21. Would you mind explaining why you think that?
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Bren123
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2013, 01:53:32 PM »

Please vote in the poll.

I would like to know who voted for the LGM?

I guess you voted for an Iron Age arrival for L21. Would you mind explaining why you think that?

Well because I'm not convinced that R1b-L21 came over earlier.
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LDJ
rms2
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2013, 01:54:33 PM »

Please vote in the poll.

I would like to know who voted for the LGM?

I guess you voted for an Iron Age arrival for L21. Would you mind explaining why you think that?

Well because I'm not convinced that R1b-L21 came over earlier.

Is that the only reason?
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Bren123
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2013, 01:56:25 PM »

Who voted for the Bronze age?
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LDJ
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2013, 02:04:38 PM »

Please vote in the poll.

I would like to know who voted for the LGM?

I guess you voted for an Iron Age arrival for L21. Would you mind explaining why you think that?

Well because I'm not convinced that R1b-L21 came over earlier.

Is that the only reason?

not sure what you're asking me here!
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LDJ
rms2
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2013, 09:54:28 PM »

I am asking on what evidence you base the idea that L21 arrived in the Isles during the Iron Age.

I voted for the Bronze Age and the Beaker Folk because L21 is about the right age to have arisen during the Bronze Age, and the Beaker Folk first arrived in the Isles during that period. A number of scholars believe the Beaker Folk spoke an early form of Celtic. Celtic and L21 got to the Isles somehow, and I think the two are connected.
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Bren123
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« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2013, 10:51:50 AM »

I am asking on what evidence you base the idea that L21 arrived in the Isles during the Iron Age.

I voted for the Bronze Age and the Beaker Folk because L21 is about the right age to have arisen during the Bronze Age,

That is a logical fallacy, this is  what  made Sykes believe that R1b had arrived  in the isle in the Palaeolithic.
Another point is the age ( assuming they have the correct age) of L21 doesn't prove when it arrived in the Isles.


Quote
and the Beaker Folk first arrived in the Isles during that period. A number of scholars believe the Beaker Folk spoke an early form of Celtic. Celtic and L21 got to the Isles somehow, and I think the two are connected.


This is  another fallacy because you're assuming that a haplotype is related to a linguistic-cultural group.
Where are the ancient DNA tests that determines that all beakers were L21 if any?
There are also a number of scholars who don't believe that the beakers spoke a Celtic language for the simple reason there is no-way of knowing what language they spoke!

I would also admit that all the above also applies to me! 
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rms2
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« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2013, 07:34:40 PM »


That is a logical fallacy, this is  what  made Sykes believe that R1b had arrived  in the isle in the Palaeolithic.

It's okay to disagree with something, but don't call it a "logical fallacy" when that is not what it is. It is no mistake in logic to see the following facts as circumstantial evidence that L21 arrived in the Isles during the Bronze Age with the Beaker Folk:

1) Some prominent scholars, like David Anthony, Henri Hubert, Nora Chadwick, Miles Dillon, etc., believed the Beaker Folk spoke an early form of Celtic and brought it with them to the Isles.

2) L21's distribution correlates strongly with Celtic-speaking peoples, especially in the Isles.

3) Current variance-based age estimates have L21 at about 4,000-5,000 years old, i.e., Bronze Age, so it did not arrive in the Isles before then.

4) L21 is absolutely dominant in the Celtic Fringe nations of the Isles and in western and northern England.

5) The only movement into the Isles at the right time and of sufficient prominence to produce this effect was that of the Beaker Folk. There were no Iron Age Celtic invasions of sufficient magnitude to account for it, and L21 is too young to have come during the Neolithic or before.

No "logical fallacy" in that, just a concatenation of circumstantial evidence. In my experience, people whip out "logical fallacy" to make themselves sound smart when no such fallacy exists.


Another point is the age ( assuming they have the correct age) of L21 doesn't prove when it arrived in the Isles.

I never said it did. But it is another piece of the puzzle, and, if accepted, it sets an upper bound on when the clade could have arrived. For example, the Paleolithic is out: too early.

This is  another fallacy because you're assuming that a haplotype is related to a linguistic-cultural group.

I assume no such thing, nor, again, is any "fallacy" involved.

There is such a strong connection between the distribution of L21 and of the Celts in the British Isles that one would have to be absolutely blind to miss it or to deny it.

Celtic languages and culture dominated the Isles prior to the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. Celtic languages and culture got there somehow.

A number of very able scholars believe the Beaker Folk brought early Celtic to the Isles, and the Beaker Folk had a significant impact on the Isles during the Bronze Age, early enough for them, their language, and their likely chief y haplogroup, L21, to become dominant.

There was no significant influx of Celts into the Isles during the Iron Age.


Where are the ancient DNA tests that determines that all beakers were L21 if any?
There are also a number of scholars who don't believe that the beakers spoke a Celtic language for the simple reason there is no-way of knowing what language they spoke!

I would also admit that all the above also applies to me!  

No one said all Beaker males were L21+. But I think most of those who went to the Isles were.

No ancient Beaker remains have yet been tested for L21 or even P312. But the two Beaker males at the Kromsdorf, Germany, site tested R1b and U106- (they got as far as M269+ with one, only got to M343+ with the other, but both were U106-).

I could be wrong, but a Bronze Age Beaker origin for most of the L21 in the Isles is my hypothesis. To me, it's the only answer that makes any sense.

What likely carriers of L21 came into the Isles, including Ireland, during the Iron Age in sufficient numbers to lead to L21's current dominance? We know of no such invasion or mass immigration during that period.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 07:43:15 PM by rms2 » Logged

RickA
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2013, 02:39:12 PM »

my vote is for the Bronze Age with Hubert's Goidels. 
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rms2
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« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2013, 09:26:15 PM »

my vote is for the Bronze Age with Hubert's Goidels. 

You were the first one to suggest that, as I recall. If it is proven true, I will make sure you get some credit, at least from me.
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RickA
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2013, 08:15:37 PM »

my vote is for the Bronze Age with Hubert's Goidels. 

You were the first one to suggest that, as I recall. If it is proven true, I will make sure you get some credit, at least from me.

you are thoughtful to remember, but I figure the odds are pretty long.  Just having some fun with your poll remembering the old days. 
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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2013, 10:38:44 AM »


2) L21's distribution correlates strongly with Celtic-speaking peoples, especially in the Isles.

All based on modern DNA studies

Quote
3) Current variance-based age estimates have L21 at about 4,000-5,000 years old, i.e., Bronze Age, so it did not arrive in the Isles before then.

This is  still not proof it was in the isles during that time, there is no ancient DNA to support this!

Quote
4) L21 is absolutely dominant in the Celtic Fringe nations of the Isles and in western and northern England.

So! Again all based on modern DNA studies.

Quote
5) The only movement into the Isles at the right time and of sufficient prominence to produce this effect was that of the Beaker Folk. There were no Iron Age Celtic invasions of sufficient magnitude to account for it, and L21 is too young to have come during the Neolithic or before.


Wrong there is a period between 800-500BCE that could easily fit this time period and they have found Hallstatt materials in the Isles.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12989605

Another problem with your argument is that the Language diversity in the  iron age would be far greater if the Beaker were speaking proto Celtic.

[
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 10:45:53 AM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
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« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2013, 08:55:07 PM »

All based on modern DNA studies

True. Are you suggesting that L21 arrived in the places where it is most frequent today sometime after the Celts and that some people other than Celts account for it?

That would be a tough sell (not to mention ridiculous).

Wrong there is a period between 800-500BCE that could easily fit this time period and they have found Hallstatt materials in the Isles.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12989605

No. There is no evidence of any large scale Celtic invasion from the Continent during the Iron Age. There are Hallstatt goods in the Isles, but no indication they were carried there by invaders or settlers. Many of them are copies of the Hallstatt style made by local craftsmen with added distinctive Isles touches.

Another problem with your argument is that the Language diversity in the  iron age would be far greater if the Beaker were speaking proto Celtic.

Well, Proto-Celtic was probably spoken in the Bronze Age, according to experts, so you are apparently mistaken.

If Proto-Celtic was spoken in the Bronze Age, and the Beaker Folk were a Bronze Age group living in places where Celtic was later spoken, then, clearly, the Beaker Folk could have been speaking Proto-Celtic. If the Beaker Folk were speaking Proto-Celtic, then they brought it with them to the British Isles, and that is how Celtic first came there.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 09:00:33 PM by rms2 » Logged

Bren123
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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2013, 09:43:16 AM »

All based on modern DNA studies

True. Are you suggesting that L21 arrived in the places where it is most frequent today sometime after the Celts and that some people other than Celts account for it?

That would be a tough sell (not to mention ridiculous).

Wrong there is a period between 800-500BCE that could easily fit this time period and they have found Hallstatt materials in the Isles.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12989605

No. There is no evidence of any large scale Celtic invasion from the Continent during the Iron Age. There are Hallstatt goods in the Isles, but no indication they were carried there by invaders or settlers. Many of them are copies of the Hallstatt style made by local craftsmen with added distinctive Isles touches.

Another problem with your argument is that the Language diversity in the  iron age would be far greater if the Beaker were speaking proto Celtic.

Well, Proto-Celtic was probably spoken in the Bronze Age, according to experts, so you are apparently mistaken.

If Proto-Celtic was spoken in the Bronze Age, and the Beaker Folk were a Bronze Age group living in places where Celtic was later spoken, then, clearly, the Beaker Folk could have been speaking Proto-Celtic. If the Beaker Folk were speaking Proto-Celtic, then they brought it with them to the British Isles, and that is how Celtic first came there.

There is no evidence of a mass migration into the Isles during the Bronze age either is it?
Proto-Celtic may date back to the Bronze age but that doesn't prove,  it was spoken in Britain in the Bronze age. The Beaker Folk are an early Bronze age culture.
As for the Iron age they have actually found evidence of migration particularly during the middle iron age.
Also for the article which I post and you obviously  haven't read:
But there is a 300-year period in British history between around 800 BC and 500 BC where experts still struggle to explain what happened, where bronze is in decline and iron was not widely used.

and

"It's one of the big problems," says Timothy Champion, professor of archaeology at the University of Southampton

and finally

"There are all sorts of explanations that people have suggested, including climatic change, environmental destruction caused by over-exploitation or even internal revolution by the exploited peasantry.

"Alternatively, it could be external invasions - there is no generally agreed explanation for what looks like a major event."


So you see it is far from settled. Another point, who says you need a mass migration, at this time small bands would have been sufficient.
Could you tell me what was the Y-Haplogoup for these tribes of central Europe?
Boii - areas of modern Germany, Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia[2]
Cotini - areas of modern Slovakia
Eravisci - areas of modern Hungary
Latobrigi - localisation unlcear, possibly Southern Germany or Austria near the Upper Rhine
Lugii - possibly Germanic; areas of modern Poland
Osi - areas of modern Slovakia
Scordisci - areas of modern Serbia, Croatia, Austria, Romania
Tulingi - possibly Germanic; localisation unclear, possibly Southern Germany, Switzerland or Austria
Varciani - areas of modern Slovenia, Croatia
Vindelici - areas of modern Germany
Volcae
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 09:56:18 AM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
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« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2013, 09:27:19 AM »

I did read the article, I just don't think it helps your argument whatsoever.

There was a significant migration of Beaker Folk into the British Isles during the Bronze Age. Beaker burials and artifacts are very numerous in the Isles beginning in  the 3rd millennium BC. Once the Beaker Folk came, burial customs and artifacts, especially pottery, changed significantly.

There is no evidence of such significant changes in the Iron Age or of any invasion from the Continent during that time that could account for the dominance of L21 in the Celtic Fringe.

As for the y haplogroups of the continental tribes you named, I don't see any evidence that there was a lot of L21 among them, at least judging by the distribution of y haplogroups today. It is more likely they were largely U152+ and perhaps DF27+ rather than L21+, which is further evidence that there was no large scale influx of continental Celtic tribes into the Isles during the Iron Age.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 09:28:55 AM by rms2 » Logged

Bren123
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2013, 10:22:02 PM »

I did read the article, I just don't think it helps your argument whatsoever.

There was a significant migration of Beaker Folk into the British Isles during the Bronze Age. Beaker burials and artifacts are very numerous in the Isles beginning in  the 3rd millennium BC. Once the Beaker Folk came, burial customs and artifacts, especially pottery, changed significantly.

There is no evidence of such significant changes in the Iron Age or of any invasion from the Continent during that time that could account for the dominance of L21 in the Celtic Fringe.

As for the y haplogroups of the continental tribes you named, I don't see any evidence that there was a lot of L21 among them, at least judging by the distribution of y haplogroups today. It is more likely they were largely U152+ and perhaps DF27+ rather than L21+, which is further evidence that there was no large scale influx of continental Celtic tribes into the Isles during the Iron Age.

There is no evidence that the BB spoke an Indo-European language, I brought this topic up on the Celtic Linguistic page on facebook and the vast majority are non to impresses with it, to quote what one person said, "I think you are mistaking material culture with spoken language. Multiple languages of disparate origins can share what is apparently (or actually) identical material culture and cultural norms. This is the danger of "identifying People with Pots". A modern example of this is to claim that a town in England or Wales for that matter which have  a car making Industry is connected to a language, this is pure nonsense!
Even if they did find R-L21 in Britain brought over by BB that still wouldn't prove they spoke a Celtic language.
Actually during the  middle iron age the way land was used changed dramatically and the population exploded. That is ample evidence for a migration into Britain.

Let us not forget a few years ago they were making the same claim about the BB!
You also state that,"It is more likely they were largely U152+ and perhaps DF27+ rather than L21+, which is further evidence that there was no large scale influx of continental Celtic tribes into the Isles during the Iron Age."! This is pure fiction they have no ancient DNA to actually know this, it is all based on modern genetic studies.
The idea that the BB brought Celtic to the Isles is based on wishful thinking.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 08:59:36 AM by Bren123 » Logged

LDJ
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2013, 10:28:14 PM »

I did read the article, I just don't think it helps your argument whatsoever.



I beg to differ.
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rms2
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2013, 10:33:47 PM »

Well, unless you are claiming that those continental tribes left the Continent lock, stock, and barrel and came to the Isles, taking their L21 with them, the modern distribution of y haplogroups in their old homelands is relevant.

And when one is trying to figure out who brought early Celtic to the Isles, he has to look at the possibilities: what is likely, and what is not? Celtic did not come with the Neolithic farmers: too early. Chances are it arrived during the Bronze Age. Who was going to the Isles during the Bronze Age and having a real impact? The Beaker Folk.

Besides that, a number of eminent scholars believe or believed the Beaker Folk spoke an early form of Celtic or Italo-Celtic. Those scholars include David Anthony, Henri Hubert, Myles Dillon, and Nora Chadwick, among others.

I have done quite a bit of reading on the Celts, and no modern Celticist that I know of believes Celtic languages and culture were brought to the Isles as late as the Iron Age. Some believe they came without much of an influx of new people, as a lingua franca facilitating trade among the peoples of the Atlantic Bronze Age network and Central Europe, and others believe Celtic language and culture came with the Beaker Folk. But no modern scholar that I know of thinks the Celts first arrived in the Isles as late as the Iron Age.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 10:42:24 PM by rms2 » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2013, 09:47:26 AM »

I'm hoping we can get some more votes in this poll and perhaps some more comments, as well.
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OConnor
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2013, 11:41:13 AM »

I voted for the Neolithic. Perhaps my timing is off?. I am liking a beaker pottery connection. But I'm not sue about the timeline.  Bell beaker pottery has been found in the Amesbury Archer's grave of 4300 years old.  There was no bronze in his grave. There were copper and flint knives and flint arrowheads, and small gold objects. Is this considered the bronze age? or does it straddle the border of time?

I suspect Orkney played a part as an entry point into the Isles with it's large megalithic complexes, as well as people crossing the English Channel. I suspect Orkney had connections to Scandinavia. Perhaps the backdoor approach through Orkney would work if the land was less desirable. I would guess Scotland would be less populated compared with the south of England.
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R1b1a2a1a1b4


R-DF13**(L21>DF13)
M42+, M45+, M526+, M74+, M89+, M9+, M94+, P108+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P14+, P140+, P141+, P143+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P224+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P231+, P232+, P233+, P234+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P239+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P294+, P295+, P297+, P305+, P310+, P311+, P312+, P316+, M173+, M269+, M343+, P312+, L21+, DF13+, M207+, P25+, L11+, L138+, L141+, L15+, L150+, L16+, L23+, L51+, L52+, M168+, M173+, M207+, M213+, M269+, M294+, M299+, M306+, M343+, P69+, P9.1+, P97+, PK1+, SRY10831.1+, L21+, L226-, M37-, M222-, L96-, L193-, L144-, P66-, SRY2627-, M222-, DF49-, L371-, DF41-, L513-, L555-, L1335-, L1406-, Z251-, L526-, L130-, L144-, L159.2-, L192.1-, L193-, L195-, L96-, DF21-, Z255-, DF23-, DF1-, Z253-, M37-, M65-, M73-, M18-, M126-, M153-, M160-, P66-

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dhubsith
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2013, 03:34:11 PM »

I voted for Bronze age, although I could believe copper. I have some skin in this particular game, as do you, OConnor, for we are both DF13** (different clusters), and I think it was DF13**'s that brought not just L21 but cows, pottery, some version of Celtic language, and everything else that makes a lifestyle. And this lifestyle was so successful, in that time and place, that THAT is the reason for the scattershot spread of DF13's descendents. I don't think it was a mass invasion at all, more of a Plymouth Rock, a colony of a few that took hold and thrived in relative isolation. I don't see a huge conflict with the native neolithic people either, just a population surge that left the natives a minority. After a while, new SNP's appeared in later generations, the earliest being DF49, many if not most of the sub-DF13 SNP's in the Isles arose there.

Of course they soon out-populated their DF13** cousins. :-)

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